New 8 speed transmission... (10 Viewers)

[HDJdreams]

That is what I'm implying so you're not reading it wrong. The 8-speed was designed for a low rear end ratio as it is internally geared lower overall. So the 3.3 diff only looks weak, when paired to the 6-speed. It's the idea of effective gearing or overall gearing, which is the tranny ratio multiplied by the diff ratio. That's what matters in the end.

I think this table might help, which is the overall effective gearing with various diffs on the 6-speed. Note that the 8-speeds overall gearing in 1-7 looks very close to the 6-speed with the 4.88 diff.
View attachment 1420780

When this thread started, I basically put the same table together by hand. The overall ratios of the top gear of the 6 spd with 3.9 axle is virtually identical (within 3%) as the 8 spd with 3.3 axle. As a SYSTEM, the 8 spd has basically the same effective axle ratio as the 6 at top gear and tighter spacing between lower gears with 2 additional gears. The 8 spd with 3.3, gives a crawl ratio that is almost 25% lower than the 6 spd with 3.9.

In the days of 3 spd autos with 1:1 top gear, comparing axle ratios would be meaningful for towing. Now that there are 6,7,8,9,10 spd transmissions with several overdrive ratios, and top overdrive ratios varying widely between different transmissions, simply comparing axle gears is meaningless outside the context of the transmission it's paired with.

Take GMs 6 spds for instance, they have 1.152:1 4th instead of 1:1, so with that transmission 3.73 axle ratio in 4th gear the effective ratio works out to 4.3, same as a Tundra with towing package.

I also looked at the numbers for 8 spd with 3.9, 4.1, 4.3 ratios swapped in. Lots of opportunity for fine tuning for bigger tires.

 

[Taco2Cruiser]

^^^ Totally get you, totally agree its a package deal anymore, and I also greatly take aerodynamics into account, and my past experiences so i guess maybe what i'm saying is too much of my opinion, and I apologize for that.

But if just stock gearing, the 8 speed revs about 75 RMPs lower than the 6 speed at 70mph. I know that doesn't seem like a lot, but I offer that when the TC unlocks, it only adds just about double that. And like Techis said that a lot of people with 6 speeds wanted a 5.5 gear, well that is Toyota's way of bumping up the RPMs a bit without having to downshift. Makes since, as the ECU plans on this only happening for a short period of time. Mess with that stock vehicle, like modify it, or tow and the TC usually stays unlocked and builds serious heat, about 60-80 degrees more than normal. That can be managed by manually limiting the trans like everyone is saying with "S#". I like that I can tow a car and full trailer through the blue ridge and stay in top gear and TC locked, keeping my trans temp low. If i need to pass, yes of course it should and will down shift into my first overdrive.

First chart is 6 speed with 3.909, second is 8 speed with 3.307

So between the two (and i'll talk both setups simultaneously), if the the 75 RPMs don't matter, then when we fall to our next highest gear, the 6 speed is making about 115 RPM more, then the when we fall to direct the 6 speed is making 453 RPM more.

When I towed before I regeared, I found myself falling to 4th regularly, but in a 8 speed you are falling to you 5th gear to match the 6 speeds 4th gear. I know that doesn't sound like a big deal, and maybe I'm looking at this from an elevation, high wind terrain I find myself in combined with my past, I feel that is a lot of heat building shifting happening. And that all leads to more dropping of speed and trying to build back up again. Resulting in a less efficient MPG.

I only bring all this up because I used to work as a tech and worked in a custom car/truck shop, making some very one off unique vehicles. I had a lot of guys not want to gear it as we wanted them to, (and i feel like it went along the lines of this conversation) and when I tapped into their ECU while they drove, the trannys were almost always running unlocked. So we had to regear, the regear, to prove our point. Yea this was modified vehicles, but that was what I'm trying to get at when we talk about doing something other than drive a 200 calm down the road and get our normal 19mpg.

I'm sorry if i offered anyone, I truly don't mean to, I just want to offer a different view for anyone in the future looking to buy either a 2008-2015 or a 2016+, and for anyone that plans to modify either of these type of 200s. And let's all be honest the interior of a 2016+ is like a wet dream on wheels.

If it was me, at the end of the day, a lifted, winch bar, 33+ mud tire 2008-2015, 4.88s are perfect. If i had a 2016+, to get the same power band as I have in my 2011 with 4.88s, that would be 4.30, so find some tundra gears and get after it!

WE LOVE YOU MUDDD.... GOODNIGHT!!!!!

 

[LCLXman]

Anyone with a 2016 have experience driving an earlier year 200?

I am curious if you noticed any difference with the two extra gears (performance, shifting, fuel economy, etc).

Thanx.

Here's my scoop... the 8 speed is actually not as good as the older 6 speed. I had the 6 speed trans in a 2010 LX570, and it seemed about right for just about everything. My 2017 LC with the 8 speed has not (in my experience) increased acceleration nor gas mileage. What it does do, is seem to hunt for the right gear more (certainly smaller steps between gears, and more for the ECU to choose from) and added complexity.
If it were up to me, I would keep everything about the newer LCs except the 8 speed transmission. In my eyes, Toyota was trying to fix a problem that didn't exist in the first place.

 

[MisterScott]

Here's my scoop... the 8 speed is actually not as good as the older 6 speed. I had the 6 speed trans in a 2010 LX570, and it seemed about right for just about everything. My 2017 LC with the 8 speed has not (in my experience) increased acceleration nor gas mileage. What it does do, is seem to hunt for the right gear more (certainly smaller steps between gears, and more for the ECU to choose from) and added complexity.
If it were up to me, I would keep everything about the newer LCs except the 8 speed transmission. In my eyes, Toyota was trying to fix a problem that didn't exist in the first place.

I don't have any experience with the 6 speed, but the 8 speed definitely is upshift happy and reluctant to downshift. I live amongst significant hills and terrain. I use manual mode a lot to hold and shift gears. Sometimes I am very surprised when I shift to manual mode at low speed and how tall a gear I am in.

 

[LALC]

Here's my scoop... the 8 speed is actually not as good as the older 6 speed. I had the 6 speed trans in a 2010 LX570, and it seemed about right for just about everything. My 2017 LC with the 8 speed has not (in my experience) increased acceleration nor gas mileage. What it does do, is seem to hunt for the right gear more (certainly smaller steps between gears, and more for the ECU to choose from) and added complexity.
If it were up to me, I would keep everything about the newer LCs except the 8 speed transmission. In my eyes, Toyota was trying to fix a problem that didn't exist in the first place.

My assumption is they changed it for better towing. Do you have experience towing on both? Wondering what the difference is there. May have been a waste to try to improve towing and "throw the baby out with the bathwater" as they say.

 

[LCLXman]

My assumption is they changed it for better towing. Do you have experience towing on both? Wondering what the difference is there. May have been a waste to try to improve towing and "throw the baby out with the bathwater" as they say.

I have not towed with either the Lexus or the Toyota. If the tow ratings changed, that might support your theory, though. As stated previously in this very thread, the LC is not a real tow vehicle - the wheel base is too short. If really towing, a full size pick-up or Suburban (or my fav, the Excursion, would be a much better choice.

 

[silverhorse]

8 speeds scare me, I know other manufacturers have had problems with them.. my neighbors (NEW)Chevy stays at the stealership with tranny issues.. Hopefully not what is happening here with Toyota...

 

[LALC]

8 speeds scare me, I know other manufacturers have had problems with them.. my neighbors (NEW)Chevy stays at the stealership with tranny issues.. Hopefully not what is happening here with Toyota...

I haven't had any issues with mine 28k miles in. I had a brand new 8-speed from BMW as well with no issues for 3 years.

 

[LALC]

I have not towed with either the Lexus or the Toyota. If the tow ratings changed, that might support your theory, though. As stated previously in this very thread, the LC is not a real tow vehicle - the wheel base is too short. If really towing, a full size pick-up or Suburban (or my fav, the Excursion, would be a much better choice.

Guess I better stow my dream of pulling an airstream and go buy a Ford. Yes, I'm being sarcastic.

 

[luke27617]

I am towing with 16 LC regularly roughly 4000lbs boat/trailer and feels great with power delivery and transmission gear selection, etc. With the SW update it is silky smooth and don't see problems trying to figure out which gear to be in.

 

[ohsix]

I drive a 2014 LX570 (wife's) with 6 speed and 2017 LC (mine) with 8 speed regularly. I do prefer the feel of the 6 speed transmission in the LX over the 8 speed, but I prefer the interior and brakes in the 2017 enough to choose it over an older 6 speed model. I traded my 2013 BMW M5 with 7 speed transmission for the 2017 LC. I don't think the 8 speed is less desirable just because it has more gears, I think it's because the shift points are programmed so low. My 7 speed car was great because it had 3 shift settings from something similar to the 8 speed LC to shifts that would jar your neck both upshifting and downshifting. I think if the LC 8 speed let you choose shift modes, everyone would like it.

 

[Swampmonger]

8 speeds scare me, I know other manufacturers have had problems with them.. my neighbors (NEW)Chevy stays at the stealership with tranny issues.. Hopefully not what is happening here with Toyota...

I don't think the number of gears has anything to do with it. The new 6spd in the 3rd gen Taco is having its own growing pains.

 

[M1911]

8 speeds scare me, I know other manufacturers have had problems with them.. my neighbors (NEW)Chevy stays at the stealership with tranny issues.. Hopefully not what is happening here with Toyota...

My wife's 2010 Mercedes C300 has a 7-speed. No issues.

Some manufacturers have had issues getting the software tuning right on 8+ speed transmissions. I know FCA has had issues with their 9-speed.

 

[TeCKis300]

Speaking of software, we need a company out there to develop some custom tranny software, like Jeep's have, to support larger tires. The 8 speed from a mechanical/ratio perspective is all this platform ever needs to drive even 35" tires. Overall gearing in 1-7 is just like the 6-speed + 4.56 rears.

Software would help change the load constants so shifts are not premature, and potentially lockout 8th.

On a side note, the funny counterpoint to all this increasing of gears is the 1-speed EVs. I drive my wife's regularly and it's blissful to not feel shifts underfoot, with seamless tractability and instant torque at any speed. Which is why ICE cars with their ever increasing transmission speeds will go the way of the dinosaur one day.

 

[Taco2Cruiser]

Speaking of software, we need a company out there to develop some custom tranny software, like Jeep's have, to support larger tires. The 8 speed from a mechanical/ratio perspective is all this platform ever needs to drive even 35" tires. Overall gearing in 1-7 is just like the 6-speed + 4.56 rears.

Software would help change the load constants so shifts are not premature, and potentially lockout 8th.

Umm. that's like saying on a 6 speed: gearing in 1-5 is like an 8 speed with 4.30 gears instead of 3.30s.

While true, that's not how any of us should set up a drivetrain. One thing that I keep seeing people get confused about gearing is they keep looking at RPMs in the low gears. If we had problems at 0-45 MPH, this would be a different argument, but we don't. A 6 speed on 40s would have no issues driving around a city and off roading. Gearing for us is about our highway RPMs and the power available. Heat, wear, fuel economy, drivetrain stress, they all need to be understood in their entirety, a gear calculator is such a small part of the equation. And unfortunately, they get abused too often.

While it's not that hard to have a modified computer lock up the torque converter when the motor is being delivered a lot more fuel and now causing more stress in the drivetrain (not to mention it's not very fuel efficient.) You still won't have the power you are looking for. Software can't make up for the fact that both 6 and 8 speeds top gear is kinda tall (meaning very low RPMs and ultimately not enough power). But the 8 speeds top gear is even taller. And the point of having gears is to use them, not limit the top one by software, differential ratios just need to be changed. That's the right way to do it. See post #62.

 

[Sandroad]

I’m sure the 8 speed is a good transmission, but I’ve had mine now for 10,000 miles and I have to honestly say I’m still getting used to it. The 8-speed in my LC is very shifty, as well as being quick to upshift and slow to downshift. I’ve found the upshifts very smooth, the downshifts not so much. The “hunting” while going up even a very gentle long hill has led me to often stop using cruise control unless the road is pretty much level. For example, on a series of long gentle hills over several miles running at 62 mph with CC on in Ontario recently, the transmission shifted 5-6 times going up each hill. It would decide to downshift, then immediately upshift, then downshift after a bit, then immediately upshift, etc. It was not just the torque converter locking/unlocking. I can tell when that happens by watching the tach. Not using cruise control caused the transmission to hold a gear longer, but when the downshift came, it was not so smooth. The oddest thing was as I “topped out” and started down what was really a gentle incline, the transmission would often downshift 2 gears and rev the engine way up. It was as though it was anticipating needing engine braking going back down? After a few seconds, it returned to normal gearing.

In other instances too, it’s a very shifty transmission and I’ve not found the behavior any different while towing (where I use S6). My sense is that it’s “desperate” to upshift, then a bit of gas forces a downshift. It seems to me the shift software is still a work in progress with Toyota and I hope they continue to release updates. I know the transmission should shift to keep the engine in it’s peak power/efficiency band, so this may all be just a matter of me getting used to the new world order with transmissions. Or, perhaps I’m just not using the skinny pedal aggressively enough.

However: I have owned the Toyota 6 speed in a Tundra with the 5.7L and the Toyota 5 speed in a 100 with the 4.7L. Both transmissions in those applications were well sorted and seemed to intuitively know what gear to choose, how long to hold it, and how to the keep the power/efficiency at optimum for what the driver was doing. IMHO, the 8 speed is not yet to that level.

As a last note, I hope I’m not jinxing myself by writing this, but the transmission or torque converter has started occasionally making a groaning noise and allowing a bit too much engine rev when getting back on the gas at about 1200 rpm. My wife and I both said “what’s that” when it first happened. It’s going in for the 10,000 free service this month and I’ll mention it at the dealer, but I know they can’t do anything with intermittent odd noises. Here’s hoping it’s ok.

The ’17 cruiser is super nice and I suppose some of this is just an old car guy at heart wanting a manual transmission. But, I’m in the camp of wishing Toyota had kept the 6 speed in the LC, or at least spent some additional real-world time with the 8 speed programming.

 

[gaijin]

I’m sure the 8 speed is a good transmission, but I’ve had mine now for 10,000 miles and I have to honestly say I’m still getting used to it. The 8-speed in my LC is very shifty, as well as being quick to upshift and slow to downshift. I’ve found the upshifts very smooth, the downshifts not so much. The “hunting” while going up even a very gentle long hill has led me to often stop using cruise control unless the road is pretty much level. For example, on a series of long gentle hills over several miles running at 62 mph with CC on in Ontario recently, the transmission shifted 5-6 times going up each hill. It would decide to downshift, then immediately upshift, then downshift after a bit, then immediately upshift, etc. It was not just the torque converter locking/unlocking. I can tell when that happens by watching the tach. Not using cruise control caused the transmission to hold a gear longer, but when the downshift came, it was not so smooth. The oddest thing was as I “topped out” and started down what was really a gentle incline, the transmission would often downshift 2 gears and rev the engine way up. It was as though it was anticipating needing engine braking going back down? After a few seconds, it returned to normal gearing.

In other instances too, it’s a very shifty transmission and I’ve not found the behavior any different while towing (where I use S6). My sense is that it’s “desperate” to upshift, then a bit of gas forces a downshift. It seems to me the shift software is still a work in progress with Toyota and I hope they continue to release updates. I know the transmission should shift to keep the engine in it’s peak power/efficiency band, so this may all be just a matter of me getting used to the new world order with transmissions. Or, perhaps I’m just not using the skinny pedal aggressively enough.

However: I have owned the Toyota 6 speed in a Tundra with the 5.7L and the Toyota 5 speed in a 100 with the 4.7L. Both transmissions in those applications were well sorted and seemed to intuitively know what gear to choose, how long to hold it, and how to the keep the power/efficiency at optimum for what the driver was doing. IMHO, the 8 speed is not yet to that level.

As a last note, I hope I’m not jinxing myself by writing this, but the transmission or torque converter has started occasionally making a groaning noise and allowing a bit too much engine rev when getting back on the gas at about 1200 rpm. My wife and I both said “what’s that” when it first happened. It’s going in for the 10,000 free service this month and I’ll mention it at the dealer, but I know they can’t do anything with intermittent odd noises. Here’s hoping it’s ok.

The ’17 cruiser is super nice and I suppose some of this is just an old car guy at heart wanting a manual transmission. But, I’m in the camp of wishing Toyota had kept the 6 speed in the LC, or at least spent some additional real-world time with the 8 speed programming.

To avoid the gear hunting going up/down hills using cruise control, have you tried putting the ECT in Power mode? This has helped a lot with my 6-speed transmission and probably would help with your 8-speed.

HTH

 

[04UZJ100]

8 speeds is too many. For any kind of car, 6 is a happy medium.

I hope Toyota does not start playing the numbers game that US manufacturers like to do.

Toyota cars are reliable because they use the same equipment across multiple lines. These one offs without much field testing prove to be unreliable in lots of circumstances.

 

[LCLXman]

Anyone with a 2016 have experience driving an earlier year 200?

I am curious if you noticed any difference with the two extra gears (performance, shifting, fuel economy, etc).

Thanx.

The fuel economy appears about the same, as the top gear is the same (or so I'm told). The thing shifts way to much - a slight up or down depending on grade. Personally, I think the shifts are soft, but it may be in part due to the small jump in gears compared to the 6 speed. Personally, I like the 6 speed better.

 

[mcgaskins]

I’m sure the 8 speed is a good transmission, but I’ve had mine now for 10,000 miles and I have to honestly say I’m still getting used to it. The 8-speed in my LC is very shifty, as well as being quick to upshift and slow to downshift. I’ve found the upshifts very smooth, the downshifts not so much. The “hunting” while going up even a very gentle long hill has led me to often stop using cruise control unless the road is pretty much level. For example, on a series of long gentle hills over several miles running at 62 mph with CC on in Ontario recently, the transmission shifted 5-6 times going up each hill. It would decide to downshift, then immediately upshift, then downshift after a bit, then immediately upshift, etc. It was not just the torque converter locking/unlocking. I can tell when that happens by watching the tach. Not using cruise control caused the transmission to hold a gear longer, but when the downshift came, it was not so smooth. The oddest thing was as I “topped out” and started down what was really a gentle incline, the transmission would often downshift 2 gears and rev the engine way up. It was as though it was anticipating needing engine braking going back down? After a few seconds, it returned to normal gearing.

In other instances too, it’s a very shifty transmission and I’ve not found the behavior any different while towing (where I use S6). My sense is that it’s “desperate” to upshift, then a bit of gas forces a downshift. It seems to me the shift software is still a work in progress with Toyota and I hope they continue to release updates. I know the transmission should shift to keep the engine in it’s peak power/efficiency band, so this may all be just a matter of me getting used to the new world order with transmissions. Or, perhaps I’m just not using the skinny pedal aggressively enough.

However: I have owned the Toyota 6 speed in a Tundra with the 5.7L and the Toyota 5 speed in a 100 with the 4.7L. Both transmissions in those applications were well sorted and seemed to intuitively know what gear to choose, how long to hold it, and how to the keep the power/efficiency at optimum for what the driver was doing. IMHO, the 8 speed is not yet to that level.

As a last note, I hope I’m not jinxing myself by writing this, but the transmission or torque converter has started occasionally making a groaning noise and allowing a bit too much engine rev when getting back on the gas at about 1200 rpm. My wife and I both said “what’s that” when it first happened. It’s going in for the 10,000 free service this month and I’ll mention it at the dealer, but I know they can’t do anything with intermittent odd noises. Here’s hoping it’s ok.

The ’17 cruiser is super nice and I suppose some of this is just an old car guy at heart wanting a manual transmission. But, I’m in the camp of wishing Toyota had kept the 6 speed in the LC, or at least spent some additional real-world time with the 8 speed programming.

Thanks for the feedback. As your last sentence alludes to the idea the 16+ should have come with the 6 speed transmission, I would have ended up buying it instead of the 13-15 gen, but the 8 speed was the main factor holding me back. Hoping they revert to something more tried and tested for the 300 series!