New 8 speed transmission... (1 Viewer)

[Taco2Cruiser]

The 8 speed transmission 200s will be in more need of a regear than the 6 speed 200s.

While the top gear of a 2016+ is .672:1 and a 2008-2015 is .588, the 2016+ gets a 3.307 diff ratio and the 2008-2015 gets a 3.909 diff ratio.

That is going to require a downshift sooner, and more often. Building additional heat and loosing efficiency because of constant torque converter unlocking and shifting. Toyota did the 8 speed only in the US (Australia gets the 6 speed) because of marketing. I hate to say it like that, but i believe it's true. When trying to sell a $80k vehicle against Land Rovers and full size domestic trucks even, people think more gears are better. "a F-150 is about to have 10 gears! A land cruiser has 6, pshh, that sucks. That's not necessarily true, and when it comes to modifying any of these new vehicles with gearing so high that the engine is constantly on the edge of being lugged along with an incredible amount of aerodynamic engineering emphasized on the body. Once a 2016+ gets its front bumper exchanged out for a winch bar with a lift and roof rack, all that new amount of wind drag will fight against the truck just as it does on the 2008-2015, but now you have an even lower RPM at a given gear, but the power output hasn't changed.

Check out the Fast Lane Truck, and see how

For the 6 speed:


For the 8 speed:


The 8 speeds lost 45 seconds and couldn't find a good gear to stay in, where the 6 speed finds a gear that may be a little lower and rev higher, but it doesn't have to shift constantly, which is far more efficient that jumping around.

When people talk about limiting the upshifts for towing @Dan Higgins, the 6 speeds 4th gear and the 8 speeds 6th gear are both direct 1:1. Both transmissions have double overdrives and are almost the same ratios, so there isn't really a difference at speed (which is why the fuel efficiency didn't change with the new 8 speed) The only thing the 8 speed gained is 2 more under drive gears, one of those being a very nice low 4.795 versus the 2008-2015 1st gear of 3.333. But again with a crappy 2016+ diff ratio, that has been negated. If a 2016+ were to regear to 4.88s, then that is where some real magic can happen.

amount of gears in a transmission past 6 or maybe even 7 is like direct injection, potential buyer don't really understand how drivetrains work, they hear something that is advertised and there for, if another vehicle doesn't have it, it must be worse.

 

[dnh1]

These are all good points, and I don't understand all the gear ratio stuff as well as you, but I do have some real world experience on LCs and would throw in a little counter point.

I have owned 3 6 speed 200s (2008 LC, 2009/2011 LX), and now I own 2 8 speed ones (2016 LC, 2017 LX), so I do have a lot of driving time in these over the last 8 years. As opposed to one test. I have not modified any of them, and I am not a tech guy. Have put hundreds of thousands of miles collectively on the vehicles.

I have towed a lot of things with them. I will say that the 200 is a piss poor tow vehicle to start with. The wheelbase is too short. Why anyone would buy a 200 to be a tow vehicle is beyond me. Get a pickup truck, a suburban, even a Sequoia properly equipped tows better than an LC. I have towed boats from SC to Marathon in the FL keys and back, and I have towed all kinds of other trailers. The 6 speeds were constantly shifting as well at interstate speeds when towing even a 21 foot boat and did even worse with a 24 foot boat. I have towed a lot of other trailers as well, and one other important point is that the LX is much better at towing than the LC (I realize the rating is lower) bc AHC is a must if you are trailering both for coupling / uncoupling the trailer and leveling the vehicle. The LC sags, if you have much weight on the tongue and a load of gear in the truck. Not sure if that affected their "test" at all in the post but they aren't apples to apples.

The 8 speed is not necessarily better at towing, but I don't think its worse either. The 200 is just not a good tow vehicle. For everyday driving, I much prefer the 8 speed to the 6 speed. I just drove my 2016 LC about 300 miles yesterday at all different speeds, over hills, etc. and was thinking how much I preferred the new transmission at interstate speeds.

So, in conclusion, if you are gonna buy a vehicle to tow, don't buy an LC in the first place.

 

[Taco2Cruiser]

Makes since, good to get an opinion from someone who ownes a lot of these things.

The thing I like to bring up is we all know the transmission is shifting around, that's it's job and I don't want to gear a truck to the where it doesn't use those gears effectively. But very few actually know what gear or what the torque converter is doing which driving. I tap into the ECU with my computer and see everything from air/fuel mix, to timing, to shift points and TC lockout.

As I said in the earlier post both 6 and 8 speed transmits have a direct (4th gear and 6th respectively) and two overdriven that are within .1 of each other. In other words, there is no difference in the highway. But the 8 speed has a much high diff ratio, which is much worse for producing power. All motors has stayed the same, so it's not like a 2016+ can handle a lower RPM band. So pure physics and my own real world testing of both the 6 and 8 speed, I noticed the 2016+ sucked at west Texas, windy with steep hills driving. I'm sure in California or Florida it won't be noticeable. But that was why I bought an older 6 speed while the 8 speeds were available.

That's why when a test is done, side by side, with the same load, the 2008-2015 pulls better.

2016+ gives a better possible gear at city driving speeds because that when the two extra gears are.

New Toyotas are setup to accelerate to a set speed, and stay there, in an effort to maximize fuel economy. Problem is no one stays at a constant speed, we are always trying to pass some one or slow down because of some one.

"Anyone who drive slower than you is an idiot, and anyone who drives faster than you is a maniac"
- George Carlin

 

[Dan Higgins]

Oh, I can't tell you how many time I've had this argument about tow vehicles. A lot more on the trailer forums of course. We did get the Land Cruiser primarily because it had better towing specs than a Land Rover LR4. We pull a 6,000# 27' travel trailer. But here is the point - when we get to where we want to plant it then we go off road. Not the kind of off road I would want to do with a longer wheel base. We use a Hensley/ProPride hitch which essentially eliminates nearly all sway and provides significant weight distribution. And my experience thus far in the mountains of Colorado has been that the 8-speed climbs good enough for me - even over mountain passes. But I am one of those drivers that does't mind getting in the right lane and going 65 on the interstate and going up and down mountain passes I keep it at either the speed limit or the "warning sign" speed. I don't even mind sitting in the right lane and getting over the pass 60 seconds slower. As for shifting, I do it myself and keep the RPM between 2800 and 3500.

Now that doesn't mean that a truck isn't better if all you care about is towing. Most people go that route with a trailer our size.

As for lower or higher diff ratios, I don't know much about drive trains other than on bicycles. And I have never messed with the front gears, only the rear. And I don't have a means of tapping into the ECU (though that would be interesting.)

As for the TFLTruck test up the pass from Silverthorne to the Eisenhower tunnel it wasn't clear to me that the driver knew how to drive a Land Cruiser. I'll be doing that drive a couple of times this summer. I may run the test myself and see how it goes. Though the weight on my truck is different. But so is my driving style when towing. I've never been one to let the TV transmission hunt. And I have no problem running higher RPM (as in the 2800-3500 range) when I need to pull up one of those Colorado passes.

So back to the questions on the 8-speed. Is it only marketing and has in fact made the LC worse? Time will tell. For me, its great. And that is all that matters to me.

 

[Andreas P]

I'm also really happy with the 8 speed in the LX. Surprisingly, I did reset the MPG calculations before driving from DC to Baltimore and got 20+ MPG on 33" wheels (Michelin Defenders) mostly in cruise control. In the city, I average 10MPG.

 

[TeCKis300]

The 8 speed transmission 200s will be in more need of a regear than the 6 speed 200s. While the top gear of a 2016+ is .672:1 and a 2008-2015 is .588, the 2016+ gets a 3.307 diff ratio and the 2008-2015 gets a 3.909 diff ratio.

This is an important point you're getting at with respect to the top gear of the 8 speed. When modifying with a larger tire/worse aero, the 8th gear will almost be useless to cruise as you point out. There's no anecdotal examples just yet, but perhaps there's logic in the transmission to prevent selecting this gear/hunting/unable to lock torque converter. Outside of that, the driver may need to use manual mode to limit shifting within S7 or lower, and therefor not need to regear unless they really want the use of S8.

The 8 speeds lost 45 seconds and couldn't find a good gear to stay in, where the 6 speed finds a gear that may be a little lower and rev higher, but it doesn't have to shift constantly, which is far more efficient that jumping around.

When people talk about limiting the upshifts for towing @Dan Higgins, the 6 speeds 4th gear and the 8 speeds 6th gear are both direct 1:1. Both transmissions have double overdrives and are almost the same ratios, so there isn't really a difference at speed (which is why the fuel efficiency didn't change with the new 8 speed) The only thing the 8 speed gained is 2 more under drive gears, one of those being a very nice low 4.795 versus the 2008-2015 1st gear of 3.333. But again with a crappy 2016+ diff ratio, that has been negated. If a 2016+ were to regear to 4.88s, then that is where some real magic can happen.

In regards to the TFL towing vids, I've seen that as well and was disappointed with the shift logic. In the test, they always do full auto and leave it up to the computer to select the best ratios. It does seem like the 8-speed chases the highest gear to a fault in this test scenario. But that's not to say it's completely a realistic evaluation. Any legitimate driver in this case would have put the shift selector to S6 per manual (or perhaps S4 in this specific case) and it would have performed much better. Another option would be to use the ECT PWR function, which operates similarly to a functional TOW/HAUL mode by holding gears.

While I heard you on the 3rd member ratio being a 3.307, it's not really a big deal as all the gearing down is more than compensated by the 8 speed. It's the overall ratio that important to consider. Except yes, S8 would potentially be useless. Looking at that 10-speed F150, they likewise are using really low ratio diffs.

 

[gaijin]

Another option would be to use the ECT PWR function, which operates similarly to a functional TOW/HAUL mode by holding gears.

This!

I have no experience with the 8-speed transmission, but I think I'm safe saying that ANY automatic transmission can be put into a set of conditions that would make it hunt for a gear. The first thing I do if I notice my 6-speed having a hard time staying in one gear, or not locking up, is to swich the ECT to the Power setting. Nine time out of ten this solves the problem. Surprised no-one mentioned this option before.

HTH

 

[Dan Higgins]

This!

I have no experience with the 8-speed transmission, but I think I'm safe saying that ANY automatic transmission can be put into a set of conditions that would make it hunt for a gear. The first thing I do if I notice my 6-speed having a hard time staying in one gear, or not locking up, is to swich the ECT to the Power setting. Nine time out of ten this solves the problem. Surprised no-one mentioned this option before.

HTH

+1 In fact, when going through the mountains in Colorado, I generally leave it in ECT Power setting.

 

[TeCKis300]

What's lame is that the TFL guys will use the tow/haul mode for the benefit of the domestic cars in the Gauntlet test, yet are clueless to use the ECT PWR function on the Toyota's and thus putting them at a handicap. Goes to show that the button labels are critical for layman to understand.

In my previous 100-series, I've often used the ECT PWR function after putting on 33's. This made the transmission mapping more optimal for the larger tires by holding the gears such that it doesn't fall into a dead spot when shifting into the next gear. I've driven enough to also know that there is a ~1/2 MPG cost. So Toyota is doing the right thing by having the normal maps target fuel efficiency, while allowing for a selectable mode/map for performance. Unfortunately again, the label is a bit subtle.

I've just put 33's on my LX and I may try to same. Though the 5.7 has plenty of gruff and tug that I've not reached for the function just yet.

 

[Taco2Cruiser]

All very good points, and I too manually limit upshifting all the time.

But with reference to diff ratios, if you find yourself always manually limiting your top gear, why would you not move you ratio band to take use of lower gearing by basically eliminate a top gear that never gets used?

Acknowledging the fact that a 6 speeds gears 4-6 are the dang near the same as a 8 speeds gears 6-8. But with the 8 speed having a less power/more fuel economy diff ratio is why I say the 8 speed hinders towing.

Take my 200, with just a lift, front bumper and roof rack, AND a stock wheel and tire, so just wind resistance increase. I couldn't stay in my 6th gear (or a 8 speeds 8th gear) for anything. A head wind or slight hill and then a down shift to the first overdrive.

Take that and even less power produced in a 8 speed because of the gearing, add the drag from the trailer, it's easy to see how the 8 speed isn't as good for high speed towing and will be in more need of a gear ration change when mods begin.

Edit: make no mistake gentlemen, i'm not knocking the 8 speed, I just strongly feel it got paired with a terrible diff ratio. If I would of bought a 16 over my 11, I would of still absolutely re-geared to 4.88. But the fact that the 8 speed isnt in Australia, combined with a random higher gear, no improvement of fuel economy, makes the argument of why we have it other than to say there is 8 gears, which is better right.

 

[TeCKis300]

Borrowing Dan's image:

All very good points, and I too manually limit upshifting all the time.

But with reference to diff ratios, if you find yourself always manually limiting your top gear, why would you not move you ratio band to take use of lower gearing by basically eliminate a top gear that never gets used?

Acknowledging the fact that a 6 speeds gears 4-6 are the dang near the same as a 8 speeds gears 6-8. But with the 8 speed having a less power/more fuel economy diff ratio is why I say the 8 speed hinders towing.

Take my 200, with just a lift, front bumper and roof rack, AND a stock wheel and tire, so just wind resistance increase. I couldn't stay in my 6th gear (or a 8 speeds 8th gear) for anything. A head wind or slight wind down shifted the the first overdrive.

Take that and even less power produced in a 8 speed because of the gearing, add the drag from the trailer, it's easy to see how the 8 speed isn't as good for high speed towing and will be in more need of a gear ration change when mods begin.

Good points and not negating what you're saying at all. If one really wants to take advantage of all ratios, especially the taller gears of the 8-speed, regearing is the way to go.

But consider this, by limiting the gearing of the 8-speed to the first 7 gears, via manual and selecting S7... The 8-speed STILL has a broader spread than the 6-speed, 5.869 vs 5.668 respectively. More importantly, when considering the effective overall ratio (with diff), the 8-speed setup, using 1-7, has gearing akin to the 6-speed with a 4.59-4.76 diff! Perfect for lugging a heavily modded rig around.

Looked at it another way, the 8-speed (with its OE diff ratio), already has the advantage of 4.88 gearing, and superior overdrive (for stock setups). To your point, with bigger tires, that overdrive might be quite useless, but hey, there's 7 more gears to play with.

 

[Taco2Cruiser]

I agree the 8 speed with the 3.3 ratio has a better low end power, but I have to disagree with the statement in relation to highway speed. Saying using gears 1-7 is like a 6 speed with 4.88, I don't see how you are getting that? I might be reading that wrong though.

 

[TeCKis300]

That is what I'm implying so you're not reading it wrong. The 8-speed was designed for a low rear end ratio as it is internally geared lower overall. So the 3.3 diff only looks weak, when paired to the 6-speed. It's the idea of effective gearing or overall gearing, which is the tranny ratio multiplied by the diff ratio. That's what matters in the end.

I think this table might help, which is the overall effective gearing with various diffs on the 6-speed. Note that the 8-speeds overall gearing in 1-7 looks very close to the 6-speed with the 4.88 diff.

 

[Taco2Cruiser]

Ah is see where we are not agreeing.

I've been talking about the 6 vs 8 speed in relation to its upper end, direct and overdrive gears only. I get the 8 speed is better in its underdrive gears, never disagreed with that.

I'm just talking direct and over drive gears. Notice the last 3 gears on both trannys, and how the 8 speed's, because of the 3.30 diff gears have a slightly higher ratio. Higher ratio means lower RPMs, lower RPMs mean less power, with all of us having the same motor, I know we are experience the same power available.

But towing (which is all I've been talking about) is the same as a modified truck. Drag and resistance. Maybe this is more opinion, but if I am always sucking in top gear, it is time to make my second from the top gear, my new top gear, and then I get the added benefit of a lower first gear. That's what I'm saying.

 

[Dan Higgins]

I am certain you all understand these ratios better than I do. It is interesting to me that the Effective Gearing for the 8-speed tends to sit between the 6-speed w/ the 4.3 and the 6-speed with the 4.88 until you get to 5th gear at which point it is higher than all of the 6-speed combinations. Maybe because 5th and 6th on the 6-speed are considered "overdrive". (I really don't know.) Also, 7th gear on the 8-speed sits between the 4.3 and 4.88 options on the 6-speed.

Finally most of the miles I drive are and will be open, relatively level freeway miles at ~75-80 MPH. (Not towing as most of our road trips do not involve towing.) I'm thinking the 8th gear becomes useful at that point. I certainly have never need to shift to S7 nor have I noticed undue hunting while at those speeds. I have been rolling with 285/65 R18 KO2s which are, I believe, a 32" tire. Not 33s but not stock either.

 

[TeCKis300]

But towing (which is all I've been talking about) is the same as a modified truck. Drag and resistance. Maybe this is more opinion, but if I am always sucking in top gear, it is time to make my second from the top gear, my new top gear, and then I get the added benefit of a lower first gear. That's what I'm saying.

Yup yup! And that strategy applied to the 8-speed works as well.

Slightly different, but there have been those towing with the 200, that have found that they are wanting for a 5.5 ratio gear. 7th gear on the new 8-speed looks to be that nice 5.5 gear ratio.

 

[Taco2Cruiser]

I am certain you all understand these ratios better than I do. It is interesting to me that the Effective Gearing for the 8-speed tends to sit between the 6-speed w/ the 4.3 and the 6-speed with the 4.88 until you get to 5th gear at which point it is higher than all of the 6-speed combinations. Maybe because 5th and 6th on the 6-speed are considered "overdrive". (I really don't know.) Also, 7th gear on the 8-speed sits between the 4.3 and 4.88 options on the 6-speed.

Finally most of the miles I drive are and will be open, relatively level freeway miles at ~75-80 MPH. (Not towing as most of our road trips do not involve towing.) I'm thinking the 8th gear becomes useful at that point. I certainly have never need to shift to S7 nor have I noticed undue hunting while at those speeds. I have been rolling with 285/65 R18 KO2s which are, I believe, a 32" tire. Not 33s but not stock either.

Makes sense. My '11 could go up and down hill at 75 when stock all day. But when I put a 6,000 lbs trailer on the back, or when I simply lifted a little and put a bull bar on, the aerodynamic drag was suck a difference it made my 6th gear vanish into the night. But for me, that is 100% of the time. So that's why I keep bringing up, that a '16 (since it had an even higher final ratio of its 8th gear and diff gear) would be even more in need of a gear ration change when always towing or modified.

 

[Taco2Cruiser]

Yup yup! And that strategy applied to the 8-speed works as well.

Slightly different, but there have been those towing with the 200, that have found that they are wanting for a 5.5 ratio gear. 7th gear on the new 8-speed looks to be that nice 5.5 gear ratio.

What do you mean by 5.5 ratio and 7th gear?

 

[TeCKis300]

5.5 meaning that there are some that wished for an intermediate ratio between their 5th and 6th gears in their 6speed tranny. 6th was too tall to pull the load (as you've experienced), yet 5th was just a bit too aggressive.

The 7th gear in the 8speed walks that line between the old 5th and 6th gear ratios.

Though for those of us with big tires, 5th gear is already made taller.

 

[Taco2Cruiser]

I see what you are saying now. So do you know when your torque converter locks and unlocks?