My new 2005 LC frame problem (2 Viewers)

[a990dna]

Update from 11/8/06:

The arbitration hearing went okay... after my 20 min presentation the CCM at Toyota dropped a bomb and said the dealer never notified them the vehicle had a frame problem -- Toyota didn't have a chance to inspect it.

I said the dealer told me Toyota engineers were involved. I found they simply called the Hotline to see if there was a TSB... then proceeded to try and fix it based on their own judgment and passed it off like Toyota endorsed the procedure -- I was pissed.

It was also noted the dealer was remiss in documenting several dispositions from prior warranty service. Toyota claims they automatically get notified if a vehicle needs to be taken back for the same problem twice -- if true, I believe the very reason the dealership was circumventing the process.

The outcome was an agreement to allow Toyota FTS the opportunity to inspect my Land Cruiser.

 

[a990dna]

Update from 11/14/06:

I dropped off my LC at the dealer... I got the big cold shoulder. They again, tried to circumvent the process of writing an accurate repair order, so I had to hold their hand and practically do it for them.

I met with the FTS this morning to discuss all the problems. I also noted what the dealer did on the prior service visit -- he wasn’t happy. I showed him pictures of the area in question. He drew a diagram of the boxed frame area showing a standoff and the frame strengtheners (“multi-layer material”).

The first thing he said was Toyota takes great pride in the LC -- especially the frame design. He said it was doubtful they would authorize a fix and maybe would require replacing the entire frame.

So I get a call from the dealer this afternoon telling me Toyota authorized to replace the entire frame.

I guess they figure they have to replace it regardless if they own it, or I do -- they have the vehicle already sold and will repair it even if it takes disassembling and reassembling the entire vehicle.

I have a decision to make... if I go forward with the repair, I guess I could say I'll have the only LC that was built in America -- maybe a good selling point?

Ideas are welcomed.

 

[Jim_Chow]

I'm surprised they'd try to replace the entire frame! I would have thought it would be easier to replace the entire vehicle. I'd try to get them to buy it back or give you a new one. When the lexus GX's first came out, there were numerous complaints of the driveshaft/transmissions clunking, and lexus ended buying back a fair number of them. And those are minor compared to a frame. IMHO, this is a major disadvantage of the Toyota over the Lexus...corolla service at a lx price.

BTW, what dealer is this? Longo or Cerritos?

 

[e9999]

Update from 11/14/06:

I dropped off my LC at the dealer... I got the big cold shoulder. They again, tried to circumvent the process of writing an accurate repair order, so I had to hold their hand and practically do it for them.

I met with the FTS this morning to discuss all the problems. I also noted what the dealer did on the prior service visit -- he wasn’t happy. I showed him pictures of the area in question. He drew a diagram of the boxed frame area showing a standoff and the frame strengtheners (“multi-layer material”).

The first thing he said was Toyota takes great pride in the LC -- especially the frame design. He said it was doubtful they would authorize a fix and maybe would require replacing the entire frame.

So I get a call from the dealer this afternoon telling me Toyota authorized to replace the entire frame.

I guess they figure they have to replace it regardless if they own it, or I do -- they have the vehicle already sold and will repair it even if it takes disassembling and reassembling the entire vehicle.

I have a decision to make... if I go forward with the repair, I guess I could say I'll have the only LC that was built in America -- maybe a good selling point?

Ideas are welcomed.

that's a toughie to handle. Personally, I would not want them to fix it for me. Too much uncertainty about things that were taken on and off. May be perfectly fine, then again, maybe not. I'd argue that this will severely impact the value of the vehicle. I'd not buy a 40K used cruiser with a replaced frame, personally....

 

[Jim_Chow]

Yep, too risky. They not only have to remove the entire body w/ all those harnesses, but then they have to remove the suspension, engine, tranny, fuel tank from the frame. Look at it this way. When the 100 is assembled at the factory in Japan, the frame, engine, suspension are already a single chassis unit (I have pics if you want to see). This chassis is assembled elsewhere and shipped to the factory for final assembly. Look how many specialist installers have worked on a single LC from chassis assembly to body assembly, interior, and final QC. The same guys build 580 LC's every day at the Toyota Yoshiwara (ex-Araco) plant! Do you really think a couple of techs can do as good of a job? I think assuming everything works, you'll have creaks all over the place, body won't line up straight (so if you add aftermarket bumpers on in the future, it won't work right, etc.)

 

[a990dna]

IMHO, this is a major disadvantage of the Toyota over the Lexus...corolla service at a lx price.

BTW, what dealer is this? Longo or Cerritos?

see above highlight.

I agree, a MAJOR disavantage... this is rediculous, but I'm not done yet.

Labor alone is 50 hours.. $4K
The frame.. I'm guessing $3K

Personally, I would not want them to fix it for me. Too much uncertainty about things that were taken on and off. May be perfectly fine, then again, maybe not.

Nor me. I have some work to do... hopefully I can get them to see the big picture without involving lawyers.

I would think Toyota would want to buy back the vehicle including extended warranty... I can't imagine they'd want to service this vehicle for the next 6 years or 65K miles -- especially if it gets traded in.

Plus, the dealer has to repaint the hood due to damage from the prior service visit.

What a mess.

 

[e9999]

see if you can get an appraiser to tell you what the vehicle would be worth tomorrow with a replaced frame...

 

[aedgington]

That's jacked up. I would request they find you a used LC at auction w/ similar miles and swap LCs with you.

 

[cruiser88]

i wonder if they had your lc on a frame machine,afterwards painted to cover up the bends they made.

 

[Jim_Chow]

I think the only way you're going to get them to buy it back is with the help of an attorney with threat of a lawsuit. You could also have an appraiser give you an estimate of what it's worth with and without frame replacement. IIRC, on KBB, if there's been more than $3K worth of work on it (body/frame), it cannot be classified into any of the excellent, good, fair categories. It's either "poor" or have an independent estimator determine the value. So in the long run, if you stick with this vehicle and try to sell it at some point, you'll eat the loss. Better to have Toyota eat the loss up front with a buyback.

 

[Morbo]

Update from 11/14/06:

I dropped off my LC at the dealer... I got the big cold shoulder. They again, tried to circumvent the process of writing an accurate repair order, so I had to hold their hand and practically do it for them.

I met with the FTS this morning to discuss all the problems. I also noted what the dealer did on the prior service visit -- he wasn’t happy. I showed him pictures of the area in question. He drew a diagram of the boxed frame area showing a standoff and the frame strengtheners (“multi-layer material”).

The first thing he said was Toyota takes great pride in the LC -- especially the frame design. He said it was doubtful they would authorize a fix and maybe would require replacing the entire frame.

So I get a call from the dealer this afternoon telling me Toyota authorized to replace the entire frame.

I guess they figure they have to replace it regardless if they own it, or I do -- they have the vehicle already sold and will repair it even if it takes disassembling and reassembling the entire vehicle.

I have a decision to make... if I go forward with the repair, I guess I could say I'll have the only LC that was built in America -- maybe a good selling point?

Ideas are welcomed.

No way I would agree to that. IMO you would end up with a bigger problem than you had to start with. Most Toyota shops don't know how to work on an LC, so few come in for majar repairs. Sounds like something GM would try to do.
A complete buy back is the only right thing to do. If they won't it would be time to get a lawyer.
Wish you all the luck, what a bunch of crap to have to put up with.

 

[richg]

Not a chance I'd want any dealer to replace the frame for me on a vehicle like an 05 LC. There is not a chance that its going to be reassembled properly to factory specs. At best, you're going to end up with a complete rattle trap after its all said/done. There is just so many small things that could be screwed up, not to mention the HUGE items that are likely to be fouled up by a dealership tech. What kind of warranty are they giving you on this replacement? What about the safety of the vehicle after all this work? Are they prepared for the possible lawsuit when the dealer compromises a wiring harness for the airbag system?

I would push for the buy-back / new vehicle. Its just outrageous that they would even think about proposing the installation of a new frame at a dealership.

rich

 

[DoctorJay]

I'd echo what richg said. There's a reason you don't hear much about "frame replacement" on any vehicle -- the frame is the vehicle. I would also think that 50 hours labor is less than it's actually going to take. And I bet the chances of them getting everything right when it's reassembled are about as good as throwing a deck of cards and having them all land in order.

This is, after all, the flagship Toyota. They need to stand behind it. If I were in your shoes, I would look into hiring an attorney to push for a buyback/new vehicle replacement. If things work out, you could spend a couple hundred dollars and they'll cave quickly. Often the mere threat of a lawsuit is best at motivating peolpe.

Best of luck!

 

[uzj100]

Lawyer and do not forget the "NEWS" programs. I would contact 60 minutes, dateline, local, newspaper, etc. That usually gets things moving real quick. They do not want any negative press, especially after what consumer reports said about them being the best.

uzj100

 

[DoctorJay]

Excellent point. This is perfect fodder for one of those "6 on your side" kind of local news things.

 

[a990dna]

A quick note:

I really appreciate everyone's input... I'm in the middle of a quality system audit at work so I'll compile this stuff later. I still need to contact Toyota to get a feel of their position now we both know what's at stake.

Good suggestions... keep them coming -- I'll report back.

Thanks a milllion!

 

[Campfire]

What a nightmare! Just my .02 cents worth here but BEFORE you have them tear it up, think about the problems they are going to cause. To replace the frame only, they are going to have to swap over...
Engine/trans-transfer
suspension, brakes- i.e. allthe lines hoses, etc.
fuel lines, vacuum lines, wiring harness
and the body (will they sublet this to body shop?)

Think of every nut and bolt that will be disturbed and "retorqued" to factory spec by the mechanic who drew the short straw and stuck with this job. Mechanics are most likely paid "flat rate" there (by the book time) so they'll cut corners where ever to break even.
If you think you have pesky noise now, you aint seen (heard) nothing yet.

And they frame is stamped with the VIN, will they have to file DMV paperwork, and if so, will it trigger a salvage title?

Good luck!

 

[Tinkerer]

There's been a lot of input into this one, but I can't resist.

I would definitely refuse a frame replacement.

For an example of why:

The local Lexus dealer service dept couldn't even do a tire balance correctly, recently on my LX. Not only did the Technician incorrectly torque the lug nuts, with torque ranging from dangerously undertorqued to grossly overtorqued, but he didn't fully secure all weights - one flew off a few weeks later. In addition, he jacked up the vehicle using the wrong lift points - I caught and corrected his mistake in trying to lift the vehicle by the rear axle trailing arm links (!), but I did not see him jacking by the tranny crossmember until it was already too late (!). And this was their best Technician, supposedly!

I went to great lengths to be very nice about everything to them, but nonetheless, the Service Manager and Service Advisor never returned my email offering them feedback on the service. What does that tell you? Right - they really don't care.

Why tell this story? To illustrate a point: This typical dealer service experience should serve as a warning: If they can't even do something simple like balance tires correctly, imagine what will happen if they try to replace a frame!

Again: TYPICAL dealer service experience. This sort of thing happens every day at every dealer service dept, I guarantee.

(I won't even go into my inside experience in a dealer service shop, when I was a young lad...)

'nuff said.

They need to replace your vehicle.

 

[Jim_Chow]

I can't ever recall any dealer mechanic use a torque wrench for any application. They just bash away w/ the impact. The guy who did my front diff regear in my 4runner (diff shop) did it all by "feel" & experience. This I'd buy, since the guy does only diffs and everyday. But the dealer techs don't do frame changes everyday. No way they'll torque anything to spec. I couldn't even find torque specs for the body mount bolts in my three factory manuals covering 2500+ pages.

My honda got t-boned in the rear quarter over a year ago. They had to weld (splice) in inner and outer body panels all the way up to the door, removed the rear and quarter window glass, etc. (frame/alignment was not affectted, fortunately, so steering/handling feel the same as when new) The Honda bodyshop did an admirable job repairing it, but there are some creaks coming from the roofliner that they have been unable to fix. It didn't do this before they tore it apart. All the plastic pillar fittings are in there tight. There's probably a certain technique to installing the roofliner panels that only the guy at the factory in Japan knows of. And this car is a lot simpler than the LC, hardly any electronics.

 

[Tinkerer]

It's not just torque at issue. Good Techs have a decent feel for torque, and Toyota uses better-grade materials in most fastening systems.

But consider: The frame is the spine of the vehicle. EVERYTHING is fastened to the frame, directly or indirectly. The body, the drivetrain, and numerous things within the frame area.

Either you remove the drivetrain completely while supporting the body assy, then R&R the frame, or you lift the body off the frame, then support the drivetrain while you R&R the frame. Or some other such circus. Either way, the vehicle is substantially dismembered in the process, then put back together again.

There's too many potential problems in this to list in a forum.

Not something I'd want my pals in the dealer service dept doing to MY vehicle.