Builds My LC 80 thread. (4 Viewers)

[kevsta]

Hi Kev, good to hear from you, I trust you are well. Yep the inspection stations are moving the goal posts almost weekly. Last week you could pass a test if the OBD light was on, as long as emissions were in limit, this week if the light is on, that is declared 'Graves' (Serious for non Spanish speakers), complete bollocks!

Get the emissions right and car tested before messing with the turbo, if it is visible smoke then yes you may have a problem. Also remember a bigger turbo with our diesels does not really help bottom end power, made worse by having an automatic transmission.

Check all vacuum/boost hoses and replace the fuel filter but fill it with injector cleaner before refitting. Check air cleaner as well, may just need rinsing out with cold water, drain overnight and refit, only works with OE filters though.

Mix injector cleaner in the diesel tank, give the engine a good run on the day before re-presenting the ol girl, that normally sorts the emissions.

Tyres are dated, and I was working on the car when they were fitted, must be 5+ years ago?

The government want all the older cars off the road, dig your heels in Kev!

FWIW mine goes in next month for inspection.

Regards

Dave

Ok, heels dug, no worries there so multiple other possibilities for emissions fail, other than mechanical engine wear, good to know, will start there. although said mechanic friend has been remarking on the visible smoke for a little while. as the driver its not so easy to see yourself on boost up hills lol.

Tyres, yes I got it 5 years ago almost to the day, so maybe 6-7 years? poor show IMO. it's one thing wearing them out, but as a low milage user with plenty of tread left, having all 4 condemned at the same time is a bit harsh IMO. there's a date code on them isn't there, is that what you meant? anyways, Kumho KL71 next I think.

re turbo, I wouldnt be going bigger, really looking to make it spool up earlier and run just a little bit higher psi than stock. 12-13psi will do.

and yea, will only be getting involved if required for emissions at this point, but I do have an oily intake pipe, and have seen all these horror stories about diesel runaway from turbo seals, so couldn't hurt my peace of mind, even if not so much the wallet.

PS. Dave can I ask you how your turbo dashlights behave? what colours do/should I see, and when? I think I have a bulb out at minimum.

PPS whats the OBD light?

 

[Dave 2000]

Hi Kev, re the tyre date code, look for an oval depression in the sidewall, it will have 4 numbers in it for example 1611, so 16th week of 2011. If the tyres are showing cracks then the sun has got to them perishing the rubber. I reckon 95% of tyres I replace are not 'worn' out, just cracked or perished.

Kumho rings a bell from years back, not sure if good or bad though? Replace the BFG's with.......BFG's.

The dashboard lights are different on yours as it is auto but, similar to the manual, I will video mine as there some quirks worth noting for example, with ignition on the AXLE diff lock warning lights come on but NOT the centre lock light, why I do not know. I thought it was a bulb or connection issue, further research showed it is normal for the 94 80.

If you are talking specifically about turbo lights it depends on your set up, some 80's have a red and green, some orange and green and some a single orange, mine is the single orange, it comes on at ignition and goes out once the engjne has started, if it comes on during engine running it indicates overboost scenario.

Will sort video when near car.

Take it easy mate,

Regards

Dave

 

[Cutrex]

Hi Kev, good to hear from you, I trust you are well. Yep the inspection stations are moving the goal posts almost weekly. Last week you could pass a test if the OBD light was on, as long as emissions were in limit, this week if the light is on, that is declared 'Graves' (Serious for non Spanish speakers), complete bollocks!

Get the emissions right and car tested before messing with the turbo, if it is visible smoke then yes you may have a problem. Also remember a bigger turbo with our diesels does not really help bottom end power, made worse by having an automatic transmission.

Check all vacuum/boost hoses and replace the fuel filter but fill it with injector cleaner before refitting. Check air cleaner as well, may just need rinsing out with cold water, drain overnight and refit, only works with OE filters though.

Mix injector cleaner in the diesel tank, give the engine a good run on the day before re-presenting the ol girl, that normally sorts the emissions.

Tyres are dated, and I was working on the car when they were fitted, must be 5+ years ago?

The government want all the older cars off the road, dig your heels in Kev!

FWIW mine goes in next month for inspection.

Regards

Dave

FYI, Spanish ITVs are expected to reject approximately 25% of vehicles. Departures above or below will be investigated by the Ministry of Industry. Old cars, vans and trucks are obvious main targets, and will be more or less lucky depending on how that station is meeting the objective. An old and big 4WD, especially if she is prepared, will make them smile and think 'come on, make my day'.

They are slightly more tolerant with mechanics, hopefully not revving the engine until injection cuts. My personal approach is therefore to let the mechanic cut the fuel slightly off, pass the inspection, and leave the fuel supply as before. The cost is negligible compared to the price of corticosteroids to mitigate the itching.

Good luck, and share your findings.

Cutrex

 

[Dave 2000]

Guess your right about being tolerant with mechanics, 12 years presenting cars for tests in Spain (many more years in UK )and only three or possibly four fails, from hundreds of cars, one was my own Land Rover!

Regards

Dave

 

[kevsta]

Hi Kev, re the tyre date code, look for an oval depression in the sidewall, it will have 4 numbers in it for example 1611, so 16th week of 2011. If the tyres are showing cracks then the sun has got to them perishing the rubber. I reckon 95% of tyres I replace are not 'worn' out, just cracked or perished.

Kumho rings a bell from years back, not sure if good or bad though? Replace the BFG's with.......BFG's.

hmm.. maybe.. but Muds considering Toyo Open Country too. how long ago was it you had yours and this problem Dave?

The dashboard lights are different on yours as it is auto but, similar to the manual, I will video mine as there some quirks worth noting for example, with ignition on the AXLE diff lock warning lights come on but NOT the centre lock light, why I do not know. I thought it was a bulb or connection issue, further research showed it is normal for the 94 80.

If you are talking specifically about turbo lights it depends on your set up, some 80's have a red and green, some orange and green and some a single orange, mine is the single orange, it comes on at ignition and goes out once the engjne has started, if it comes on during engine running it indicates overboost scenario.

Yes I meant the turbo lights. I have seem to have only a red one on mine, only on before it starts. no lights during operation.

 

[kevsta]

FYI, Spanish ITVs are expected to reject approximately 25% of vehicles. Departures above or below will be investigated by the Ministry of Industry. Old cars, vans and trucks are obvious main targets, and will be more or less lucky depending on how that station is meeting the objective. An old and big 4WD, especially if she is prepared, will make them smile and think 'come on, make my day'.

They are slightly more tolerant with mechanics, hopefully not revving the engine until injection cuts. My personal approach is therefore to let the mechanic cut the fuel slightly off, pass the inspection, and leave the fuel supply as before. The cost is negligible compared to the price of corticosteroids to mitigate the itching.

Good luck, and share your findings.

Cutrex

Hi there. thanks for your comments. I take it you're in Spain too then? Yes you would have thought that was the case regarding the oldies but since 2012 up until Friday has been surprisingly plain sailing with this car, at least. and especially so considering the fact I have been subtely messing with it (illegal mods lol) from the beginning too.

This last test was in fact now the THIRD time in a row they have not even lifted the bonnet, I could have quite literally fitted an intercooler to it in 2014 and it would not have failed the ITV on that, yet..

and "cut the fuel a little" you say.. how would one go about that? you're not talking about tweaking the diesel pump are you?

and BTW Dave, if I upped the boost (say) +3psi on a new turbo without adjusting fueling on pump, would that not automatically lean out the mixture slightly? ..assuming we get to that. hopefully not, just to pass a godamn ITV anyway.

 

[kevsta]

Guess your right about being tolerant with mechanics, 12 years presenting cars for tests and only three or possibly four fails, from hundreds of cars, one was my own Land Rover!

Regardsi

Dave

I wore my local Recambios T shirt (they gave me as a consolation prize for hundreds of Euros spent at some point) but he didn't care at all lol

 

[Cutrex]

Hi there. thanks for your comments. I take it you're in Spain too then? Yes you would have thought that was the case regarding the oldies but since 2012 up until Friday has been surprisingly plain sailing with this car, at least. and especially so considering the fact I have been subtely messing with it (illegal mods lol) from the beginning too.

This last test was in fact now the THIRD time in a row they have not even lifted the bonnet, I could have quite literally fitted an intercooler to it in 2014 and it would not have failed the ITV on that, yet..

and "cut the fuel a little" you say.. how would one go about that? you're not talking about tweaking the diesel pump are you?

and BTW Dave, if I upped the boost (say) +3psi on a new turbo without adjusting fueling on pump, would that not automatically lean out the mixture slightly? ..assuming we get to that. hopefully not, just to pass a godamn ITV anyway.

Hi kevsta,

Yes, I live in SE mainland Spain. The ITV is really a lottery. When I replaced the engine of my other car (a BJ 73 where a 1KZ-T was fitted in place of the infamous VM) they just took three days to examine the papers. Then the mechanic took it for the real inspection, and they did not even open the bonnet. They have never cared about it afterwards. However I remember having been earlier myself to annotate anti fog lights by Hella, and I had to disassemble the whole frontal grill for them to see the homologation number. I miss anglosaxon procedures, where MOT is passed in normal workshops led by normal mechanics.

Concerning the fuel pass, I am sure Dave or others more enlightened will be able to explain better. There is a small nut in the rear part of the injection pump that controls the fuel supply. Without touching anything else, the trick is closing slightly this nut. It should not be done arbitrarily, but is a part of the skills of a knowledgeable mechanic. The actions said by Dave help too.

Cheers,

Cutrex

 

[Dave 2000]

Tuesdays 14th November @ 261, 818 miles, I started my PM program, I thought it was more miles given it is now a third car I had not realised the amount of miles the car is not doing.

Part of my winter PM was to give the 80 a sacrificial oil and filter change. So today after a 60 mile round trip I drained the oil and filter. I have recently been using the Millard brand of oil filters and the version for the 80 is part number ML- 5123 as I loosened the filter I was surprised to see the amount of oil that drained out, sure enough the anti drain valve had failed.

I also noticed some dampness around the front axle when removing the sump plug, this was antifreeze dripping from somewhere not quite obvious.

So after fitting a new filter and refilling with oil I let the engine idle for about 20 minutes, this gave me a moment to look for the leak which was water from the bottom hose where it connects to the thermostat housing, half a turn with a 6mm socket on a hose clip and all sorted, expansion tank down about a cupful.

The sacrificial oil filter was removed, this filter held all the oil so the anti drain was working on that one, I have noted this and will see what hsppens when I change it again in about six months, in the meantime the second new oil filter and another drain and refill is now completed.

The water bladder was refilled with bottled water and a smidgen of bleach, this keeps everything fresh and healthy during the times between trails.

Next week will see the rear axle oil changed, propshafts greased, steering tie bar and drag link joints greased. I slso need to pull the rear wheels and take out the brake pads and check/measure what's left on them, they have done around 20,000 miles.

The electric fan motor has seen better days, the new one sent was wrong and new OE units are not available anymore. Research has seen me order the electric fan from a C class Mercedes, these vehicles use PWM to drive them. Perhaps of more importance is the motor has all the relays and capacitors built into the motor and is completely waterproof.

Whilst not having had any issues with the MK VIII fan mod, by reducing the component count it can only enhance the reliability, and using a more modern fan means replacements should be easy to find. Whether the Mercedes fan has the balls to cool the 80 though remains to be seen. It will cover more of the radiator than the MK VIII did, and it can also pull a lot more amps soooooo.....watch this space.

The interior lights had been replaced with LED bulbs a couple of years back and two had started playing up, the rearmost lamp above the tailgate flickered so much I thought it might trigger an epileptic fit in a bystander! The second one had just lost some of the LED's with the odd flicker, both now have new bulbs.....it's the little things that if left to build up that annoy the s*** out of you right?

The roof rack mods have been drawn up, so that is ready to be done early in the new year, centre seats are removed now to see if I can get the water and spares boxes installed a little neater.

A dual USB plug that should fit neatly in the dashboard to power the mapping tablet should keep cables tidier when on a trip.

That's all for now, thanks for popping in.

Regards

Dave

 

[Dave 2000]

@kevsta tried uploading the video of dashboard lights.

PM me your email mate, and I will send as an attachment.

Regards

Dave

 

[GrantAW]

Dave,
Just read the thread after finally following the links from the UK landcruiser club site. Lots of interesting detailed information!

Thanks

Grant

EDIT: Look at that actually my first post here having joined and only read many years back

 

[Dave 2000]

Dave,
Just read the thread after finally following the links from the UK landcruiser club site. Lots of interesting detailed information!

Thanks

Grant

EDIT: Look at that actually my first post here having joined and only read many years back

Hi and thanks, I have been slowly adding to the 80 between actual repairs and maintenance, mostly simple mods but done properly, and by offering up the detailed information it helps to sort the genuine mods from some of the BS speculation seen on a lot of forums.

Thanks for taking the time to read through.

Regards

Dave

 

[JOHN OF LONDON]

Hi Dave,
As I've just got the Lincoln Mk8 fan working on my truck (well at least I hope I have as getting the engine warm enough for them to come on in normal use seems to be impossible for now!) I'm interested to see you've moved on. How are you controlling the Mercedes fan; my understanding was that these are controlled by the engine management computer so presumably you have added some other computer to supply the control signals? I have to say adding another computer doesn't appeal to me much!

Regards
John

 

[kevsta]

@kevsta tried uploading the video of dashboard lights.

PM me your email mate, and I will send as an attachment.

Regards

Dave

Hi Dave. PMed

But I think I only actually have a single red light in there. cant see any sign of second LED / or bulb anywhere

 

[kevsta]

Ok, update on this emissions situation. It was suggested somewhere that I potentially fit a catch can to it, to clean any oil out of the recirc before it goes back into the intake, however on playing with it, there is almost nothing coming out of the tube, when it's disconnected.

I ran the car for about 20 seconds at about 1500RPM with a kitchen tissue filter against the rocker breather out, and it barely had any colour on it, and no oil present at all. So am I right in thinking that this rules out

a) needing a catch can
b) it being rings / valve seals / engine wear causing the emissions fail via recirculating dirty gases?

we took the turbo intake pipe off and it was reasonably clean on the inside, as you would expect from the lack of rocker gas oil. in the elbow on the tube there was a tiny little drop of quite clean-looking oil (changed 1000 miles ago, level not moved, still Full on dipstick)

there was a little sooty looking (but oily) residue on the compressor blades, zero end float at all, and a little lateral play, difficult to say whether it was outside spec with the turbo still in place lol, but I think it's probably the original, and given the outside condition and state of the manifold bolts (rusty as ****) the inside looked in much better condition, for a 24yr old 226k turbo.

question, could the turbo seals possibly be letting (an obviously small amount of) oil out on the exhaust side, straight into the exhaust?

If I let it idle and then rev it up there is definitely some blue in amongst the black, which you dont see any more after the initial blip.
under normal running, it actually looks pretty clean, I see much smokier cars and vans around all the time.

It was also suggested to me that I could block of the vacuum tube to the boost compensator on top of the fuel pump, just to get it through the test and then look to cure the problem with less of a deadline. The same guy also said it would be unusual for turbo oil seals letting by to be the cause of the emissions

Is this what you meant Cutrex? Dave? is there another quick adjustment to wind fuel down and back up afterwards?

either way it looks as though she's going to have to go to my friendly and (very, 300m) local spanish mechanic with an emissions machine, for a second opinion on potential tuning/ injectors/ etc type issues, on Monday. (I just ordered 4 x BFG 285/75 muds from them too, 720 Euros, so hopefully they'll play nice..

any further thoughts, experience or advice in the meantime extremely welcome

kevsta

 

[kevsta]

apologies, negligent discharge, the internet double-tapped it for me.

 

[Dave 2000]

Hi Dave,
As I've just got the Lincoln Mk8 fan working on my truck (well at least I hope I have as getting the engine warm enough for them to come on in normal use seems to be impossible for now!) I'm interested to see you've moved on. How are you controlling the Mercedes fan; my understanding was that these are controlled by the engine management computer so presumably you have added some other computer to supply the control signals? I have to say adding another computer doesn't appeal to me much!

Regards
John

Hi John, yes a difficult decision. First and foremost your right I prefer to keep electronics at bay when crossed with off roading. The MK VIII fan was super easy to get to run if a relay packed up, I even kept a plug with a couple of clips in the truck, I could then run direct from the battery. When I go out on a trail the vicious driven fan is in the spares box, along with a spare starter, alternator, CV joint...............you see I am a little OTT about getting back home.

So why the electronic fan? First, whilst it is true that the MK VIII met all my trucks needs and more regardless of temperature or load however, if a new fan motor is needed on the quick it is only available in the USA, but worse the motors are no longer made by Siemens, the replacements are cheap copies, and there is so much confusion if the fan is a two speed OR a PWM unit, and it was driving me mad trying to get any sense from some of the spares counter numbskulls over there, trust me, if I could get a brand new Siemens two speed motor, I would buy it tomorrow, it was so reliable and powerful the Mercedes unit has a hard act to follow.

Second, availability of the Mercedes fan is in abundance, and incredibly cheap to boot, if the conversion works then I may go ahead and get a new one, the test unit I have purchased from a 170,000 km vehicle was just 67.50 euros (61.13 GBP) or (USD 80.80), if it works then a new unit is 226.00 euros (238.00 GBP) or (USD 267.00), now that is cheap for a brand new Mercedes OE fan IMO.

Now to the electronics. There are two versions of the fan, one can be driven direct as per the MK VIII but only one speed, I may research if it is possible to get two speeds from the unit at a later date. For now I have gone with the version that has variable speeds, a PWM or pulse width modulator is needed to run the fan and a company builds one that specifically works the Mercedes unit. The unit is not cheap at around 170.00 euros but has some significant advantages, for example it is 'soft start' so runs as slow or fast as the engjne temperature calls for. The high/low temperature settings are programmable as is the % of fan speed for cooling and AC use.

I will be able to use just the one temperature sender, I previously had two, one as a back up, my typical belts and braces thinking. This PWM unit will recognise if there is a failure of the sensor and switch the fan to full speed as a fail safe, and the relays to carry the fan supply current are built into The fan motor which is waterproof as is the PWM controller, so a serious advantage there.

It's not all plain sailing though, I will need to make up a small circuit board that will light up my dashboard LED to indicate the fan is on. There is a function LED from the OEM controller but it does not work in a way that suits my thinking......yeah I know.

The fan may cover more of the radiator core and thus AC condenser but doubt I can improve on my system, even on the hottest of days my passengers complain of being too cold!

So over the weekend I plan to pull the rad and thermostat and flushout out the cooling system, while the rad is out I will do some trial fitting.

Regards

Dave

 

[Dave 2000]

Today I got stuck in, pulled the batteries, mounts, fan and radiator. This will give me the chance to adjust the steering box and replace the small metal pipe that runs around the head above the water pump to cool the turbo, no leak there but would be a bastard to do on the trail.

The main reason though to pull this lot out is to trial fit the Mercedes electric cooling fan that arrived last week, readers will know my 80 already uses a MK VIII unit to cool the engine and provide serious AC efficiency, so how did it go with the Mercedes unit? Absolutely brilliant!

Before removing the radiator I slipped the Merc unit in, it is a little tight between the battery mounts but could see it would fit, I also noted the gap between the water pump, with the MK 8 unit the gap was around 25mm I expect this to become nearer 45mm or more?

I cut off the mounting tabs and laid the Merc fan complete with shroud in place, I trimmed a part of the fan cowling along the top, this was to get the fan 'bump' over the radiator tank seam. And again cut down a small part of the 50mm protrusion on the bottom edge, the main body of the shroud was not cut at all, lo and behold and unbelievably the main shroud top to bottom is the EXACT size of the radiator core not just close, I mean EXACTLY! Unless you had seen me cutting off the tabs you would have thought it was a factory install, width wise the shroud leaves around 3 cm not covered on one side, whilst the MK 8 fan was good top to bottom fitment wise, it left around 13cm not cooled by the fan, if I had cooling issues with the MK 8 fan I might have blamed that area not being cooled, I didn't so was not bothered, now even more of the core is covered however, that does not necessarily mean better cooling.

To cool a hard working motor in 40+ heat, we know that it is all about CFM that we can pull through the radiator, for this you need a big fan with a decent amount of blades, and those blades need to have a large surface area and with a pitch to draw (more efficient than pushing) plenty of air, and of course to drive that fan a decent electric motor, the MK 8 fan had exactly that to cool the 4.6 V8 gas motor in 1993!

So as per my earlier post I have elected to go for the Mercedes unit, larger in diameter than both the stock VC and MK 8 fans, a much more modern unit and available 'off the peg' to boot. It does have the same seven blades as a stock 80 VC driven fan but they are not as deep in pitch, though this should be made up for by the electric fan having a fitted shroud, something the VC driven 80 does not have.

The three most common Mercedes fans that are worth looking at are rated 400, 600 and 850 watts, I chose the 600W fan, the 400 was a little on the small size, the 850 is a 11 blade behemoth, the 600 as I have discovered is the perfect physical size, but will it be powerful enough, YouTube videos show it to be quite a performer. During my research I noted the 850 watt motor appears to be same physical size as the 600W, and whilst I am unsure if could get the 11 blade fan to fit as neatly as the 7 blade unit (I might try later?) the motor may be an option? Things are not always as easy as that though, the 850 may run faster, if the blades are tuned for 'X' speed then forcing them faster may actually move less air, much in the same way that a boat propeller can be tuned for maximum thrust at certain revolutions, if the same speed then at best I would get is more longevity., that is just a passing thought as opposed to a plan.

So back to the present, the very fact that the shroud fits so snug against the radiator core between the upper and lower tanks it would not be moving about but, just in case I will put a slither of padding between the two before bolting the shroud in permanently.

Now to the electrical side, as mentioned in the previous post this fan is controlled by PWM or pulse width modulation, as I understand it, the motor has a permanent heavy set of cables connected via a set of capacitors, and with some electronic wizardry the fan power is applied by pulses, the longer the pulse the faster the fan runs, and vice verse. There are several advantages to this system for example, the fan has a 'soft' start, this means no big hit on the battery /charging system, with the MK 8 this was not too bad either as it had two speeds but, as I wanted instant AC the fan went from off to flat out with around a 50 amp hit settling at around 30 amps, the max on the Mercedes fan is around 60 amps but starts at around 25% and then goes to 50% for the AC, it is possible to program higher or lower speeds with the PWM controller, for engine temps as well as the AC.

Apart from the soft start I think the manufacturer's of these systems were using the very slow speed to keep under hood temperatures down, this with minimum load and wear, I have a couple of customers with Mercedes, and both have these fans, both start rotating very slowly a short time after the thermostat opens, this way the various other radiators for power steering/transmission are being cooled, whether my system will be set to do this I am not sure if it is necassary.

The fan motor has small air holes which made me think about waterproofing, but it seems the electronics are covered by something called 'conformal coating', I used it many years ago when doing MOD work, it is a sort of spray plastic that dries leaving everything waterproof. And whilst staying with the electronics, the PWM controller is custom built specifically for the Mercedes fan by I believe a stateside company and is also waterproof. I will need a small module made up to suit my dashboard LED's, as one or maybe two outputs on controller are not compatible with my 12v units, other than that the wiring is pretty straightforward. It all sounds good, I just need to see how it works, as always I willl provide the thumbs up or down depending on the outcome.

Thanks for taking the time to read.

Regards

Dave

 

[Dave 2000]

Just got these pictures over from the phone.

MK 8 fan, the blades were removed to check for motor number, alas despite having the product number no new units are available. Note the area not covered by the shroud, and yet cooling was never an issue.

A full 13cm not covered by the shroud, so when stationary not exposed to cooling air, the fan was excellent.

Hmmm....there was three similar pictures using the Mercedes fan but they gave gone off into the ether somewhere when swapping from phone to tablet?

Get back to you.

Regards

Dave

 

[JOHN OF LONDON]

Hi Dave,
I think I must have been lucky with my fan purchase. It looks like new and has a new looking Siemens motor that runs very smoothly. I trimmed mine to fit using a couple of fabrications to slot into the OEM mountings at the bottom of the radiator and trapped one side at the top behind the battery box and the other side behind a length of aluminium angle, which also carries the relays. Reading your experiences of the fan cycling in very hot weather when just needed for the AC I decided to use the slower speed for the AC. It'll be next summer before I know if this was a good idea! My only concern with the set up is that when stationary the fan will pull warm air from the engine compartment through the radiator across between the radiator and the AC condenser and back through the radiator reducing effectiveness. I've looked for some automatic louvres to fit behind the uncovered part but not found anything that will fit yet. If I can work out how to do it I'll add some pictures!
John