Multiport Fuel Injection for 2F

[Tinker]

Am I missing something? Why not drill the 2F IM runners for the injectors, run SS flex line to them from a distribution block, & find a downdraft TB?

My 2F 60 is sitting in the drive under 6" of snow, & it's 14 degrees & dark or I'd go out & look.

 

[RockDoc]

Too bad there isn't a head that came from the factory set up to accept the 3FE plenum. And goodness, imagine if there were a whole intake, computer and more free-flowing exhaust set-up that could be had too? And if that computer would adapt to an extra 200cc without needing reprogramming.....

 

[zuluzeugma]

Too bad there isn't a head that came from the factory set up to accept the 3FE plenum. And goodness, imagine if there were a whole intake, computer and more free-flowing exhaust set-up that could be had too? And if that computer would adapt to an extra 200cc without needing reprogramming.....

Imagine if there was a cross-flow head that bolted on the 2F...

 

[ntsqd]

I think the point was to have an EFI conversion that did not require opening up the engine beyond R&R-ing the intake?

While a cross-flow head would alleviate the congestion on the one side of the head, I don't see it being worth the effort on a 4 mains tractor engine.

 

[Trollhole]

I bought the Manafre and the Downey TBI - they still require hours and hours of improvising and then the prom programming - whew.
Anyway yes I have seen the Turbo 2F with Multi-port Fuel Injection
by Jim Van de Ven note that he concludes his remarks with,

"After the mechanical and wiring systems were installed, the most time consuming part of the project was programming the computer EPROM."

So I am thinking a kit for $3500 ready to go -
no turbo that would be a different kit.

I like the idea. I just don't think you would sell many for 3500 when there are at least two options out there that will provide the same result at a lesser price.


If you run MP your gonna need an ECU. Someone is going to need to do the programming. Someone is going to have to build a harness.

If you really want to do something that will make you some money. Do a video install of a 3fe head on a 2f from start to finish including the harness adaptations.

There are a few 3fe head swaps that have been done but none of them have been in the detail a novice would need to try it.

There have been a ton of TBI setups done. They are pretty easy and very economical. If you want to do something. Do that and make a kit for it.

I do like the idea of the adapter plate between a 2f head and the 3fe manifold. You could probably take a 3f gasket and lay it over a plate of aluminum and cut out the stud holes and the outside. Then lay a 2f gasket on the back side and cut out the ports. Then cut the 3fe side so the injector spray isn't hitting a flat wall.

 

[OlympiaFJ60]

Too bad there isn't a head that came from the factory set up to accept the 3FE plenum. And goodness, imagine if there were a whole intake, computer and more free-flowing exhaust set-up that could be had too? And if that computer would adapt to an extra 200cc without needing reprogramming.....

I think if you started with a system that used a MAF instead of a MAP sensor it could easily adapt to the extra 200cc and not need to reprogram.....wait, didn't Toyota use a MAF on the 3FE;p

Also, it is rumored that the later 2F head has enough meat to grind out the injector pocket in the intake ports. Not willing to experiment on mine though.

 

[RockDoc]

Also, it is rumored that the later 2F head has enough meat to grind out the injector pocket in the intake ports. Not willing to experiment on mine though.

Hmm, wonder if anyone has a cracked head and a chop saw? Kind of wish I picked up a cracked 3FE head that was handy in California to chop and check thicknesses along the port runners for my experiments.

 

[LCOwner]

While I admire the thought that's going in to the creation of a TBI 2F and I understand where you're coming from, I still keep coming back to the same underlying question. Why polish a turd? If you want a lesson in EFI build a TPI out of a Camero or a Vette. You'll learn just as much and spend less money. Just my $0.02.

Oh, MDS has a good but expensive selection of dyi injection parts. MSD Fuel Injection - Performance EFI Systems

 

[FJ40Jim]

it is rumored that the later 2F head has enough meat to grind out the injector pocket in the intake ports. Not willing to experiment on mine though.

I may have propagated that rumor at some point in the past.

But the rumor is pretty well quashed in this thread.

 

[Mace]

What type of multiport? Batch fire (only slightly different than a TBI unit) or multiple O2 sensors and demand fire?

Even Jim said his setup was problematic (intake kept cracking).

Try it if you want.. But for $3500 I doubt you would have many people interested...

The gain is just not there..

 

[DHONDAGOD]

How much for just the intake flanges? Wouldnt mind getting a set to build my intake for a 2f intake project. (Mines getting a blower)


Chris

 

[Yspen]

I contacted a local mechanic to get him to fit a TBi that I was going to import from the US . ( note we can not easily source a 3F manifold here in Africa )
He advised a Multiport custom conversion :

What we have done is cut all the runners of and weld a aluminium tube on to give you a plenum with ram tubes inside .We make new manifolds now and use the existing runners. as was mentioned it is difficult to get hold of the injection manifold so it would be easier to get a carb manifold and modify it then just change it over .

The other option is to add a turbo over that as well with little boost so as not to stress the engine

He advises

i would leave the compression at 9.5/1 and boost maximum 0.3 - 0.4 bar which is not much and wont stress the motor. but leave the standard distributor just lock it and remove all the contacts etc basically the dissy just has the rotor left to send the spark to each cylinder. pick up timing with a 60-2 gear on the front pulley with a mag sensor. majority of factory vehicles run 60-2 timing on the efi.

Any comments on workability - I do not want to mess up newly rebuilt 2F

 

[ntsqd]

As was mentioned earlier in this thread, the intake runner size and length tune the the engine's power band. If those are not in sync with the cam, or close, the engine will run poorly. Anything will run, optimization is the goal. Sourcing a 3FE intake is the surest bet to get those correct. Otherwise there is a formula that will predict what the size and length might need to be. How good are you at Differential Equations and Computational Fluid Dynamics?

The easy EFI solution is one of the various TBI options installed on the carb intake. Multi-port EFI is theoretically better, but I suspect that emissions considerations is the prime reason that the OE's have gone to it exclusively. Unless you're going to go looking for that last 1/10th of one percent of MPG or HP or emissions reduction I don't know that you'd see much difference btwn a TBI and an MPI system.

 

[Yspen]

Differential Equations and Computational Fluid Dynamics?

You lost me there ...

I was told that MPi will be more efficient as TBi tends to have flat spots in the powerband

The following also gets mention:

From a previous experience I would recommend the 6 injector route...TBi has "lag" or delays on the throttle and the fuel is not always spread evenly, leading to some chambers running lean and some running rich.

The last statement does not makes sense as the TBi dumps fuel into teh manifold int he same way that the carb does .

I live in Africa - emissions ins not an issue - economy / reliability is

 

[ntsqd]

You lost me there ...

That was my point, designing a new intake is either a LOT of cut, try, test, iterate, cut, try, test...... or it is a LOT of math followed by some cut, try, test.....

The TBI is the least complicated EFI system around. There are only a few sensors and not a lot of wiring.
It does have all of the liabilities of a carb with regard to fuel distribution. If the manifold design is bad, there will be rich and lean running cylinders. Arguably something as long as an inline six will never have even fuel distribution with a single fuel source, however how long have single carbs been running on engines of this type?
The advantage of using the carb intake is that it was designed for wet flow, it is intended to have both fuel and air flowing thru it.

At the end of the day I don't think that you'll see a huge power increase from going to EFI. I expect that you will gain some mileage (probably not a lot, but some), but mostly the gains will be in drive-ability. An Aisin carb won't run upside down, but so long as you have oil pressure the TBI will.

 

[Trollhole]

You lost me there ...

I was told that MPi will be more efficient as TBi tends to have flat spots in the powerband

The following also gets mention:

The last statement does not makes sense as the TBi dumps fuel into teh manifold int he same way that the carb does .

I live in Africa - emissions ins not an issue - economy / reliability is

The only flat spot I have on my TBI motor is anything above 4000 rpms. Most likely this is due to the RV cam and the oem manifold. I'm going to try the 69-70 dual runner manifold on mine and see if it makes any difference.

It's hard to believe that MP would give you a significantly more performance than the TBI system.

That being said I'd like to see someone make a bolt on MP kit. Just don't think there would be a big market for it considering the 3fe headswap and the TBI conversions are already out there and pretty economical.

If your looking for a way to make money come up with an economical way to add a turbo to the system.

 

[Yspen]

Thanks guys , that is the info I was looking for

If your looking for a way to make money come up with an economical way to add a turbo to the system.

Marshall , please see the Turbo thread https://forum.ih8mud.com/60-series-wagons/514806-2f-turbo.html - I was thinking of fitting injectors on that intake manifold or ditching the carb and fitting a TBi in there . Still waiting for Affordable FI to get back to me - not sure if they will ship to Africa

 

[Yspen]

See here how injector ports were added to a manifold

Before

After

I am hoping the same can be done to this turbos setup

 

[ntsqd]

Don't NEED to weld them in, there are epoxies that will do the job.