Mitsu 4M40 injection pump on 1Kz ?? (1 Viewer)
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bloc
SILVER Star
Yeah.. back.. kindof?
Since this is on topic, I'm currently in the process of installing the pump the OP asked about. 4m40 with perfect internals sourced from britain for about $300. I got a full o-ring and seal kit from a local bosch dealer for less than $20, as an indicator of parts availability and cost. That's a far cry from having to pay $1100 (that was a few years ago, who knows what it'd cost now) for a 1KZ_T "hybrid" pump (still not OEM) from a shady vendor.
It will mostly bolt on, with a couple small modifications. I do plan to detail all of that in a thread, with some pics.. but just wanted to update this thread: it is possible and IMO a great alternative on a 1KZ-TE.
It will install onto a 1KZ-TE pretty easily, and I do plan to start a thread in this section about the swap.
Since this is on topic, I'm currently in the process of installing the pump the OP asked about. 4m40 with perfect internals sourced from britain for about $300. I got a full o-ring and seal kit from a local bosch dealer for less than $20, as an indicator of parts availability and cost. That's a far cry from having to pay $1100 (that was a few years ago, who knows what it'd cost now) for a 1KZ_T "hybrid" pump (still not OEM) from a shady vendor.
It will mostly bolt on, with a couple small modifications. I do plan to detail all of that in a thread, with some pics.. but just wanted to update this thread: it is possible and IMO a great alternative on a 1KZ-TE.
It will install onto a 1KZ-TE pretty easily, and I do plan to start a thread in this section about the swap.
bloc
SILVER Star
Well, it can absolutely be done, as I got my 1KZ-TE engine idling with a mitsubishi 4m40 pump today.
Will start a thread with more detail, but here's a short list of what has to be done.
Fuel return line has to be cut/plugged & use the fuel supply line off the 1KZ-TE pump
Pump mounting face holes have to be enlarged approx .25" to get the timing in spec
Need to make a new bracket to brace the rear of the pump
Need to bypass the coolant line running to the 1KZ-TE throttle body
Need to remove 4M40 cold-start advance and find/fabricate a cover plate for the hole (not difficult to make)
(this means no cold-start advance/idle up unless you can find the parts from a 1KZ-T)
Need to find a way to make the throttle linkage work (can't use 1KZ-T parts without modification as the throttle lever on that pump is "pushed" to get power, where as this lever is "pulled")
Need to run alternate control/wiring for the glow plugs
Need to run a simple wire for the fuel cut solenoid
If you want a tach signal you'll have to get a SGI-5 or likewise to convert the VR sensor signal on the pump to something a tach can use. But the sensor is there.
I feel like I'm forgetting something.
My point is, this is definitely possible and not too difficult or expensive either.
Will start a thread with more detail, but here's a short list of what has to be done.
Fuel return line has to be cut/plugged & use the fuel supply line off the 1KZ-TE pump
Pump mounting face holes have to be enlarged approx .25" to get the timing in spec
Need to make a new bracket to brace the rear of the pump
Need to bypass the coolant line running to the 1KZ-TE throttle body
Need to remove 4M40 cold-start advance and find/fabricate a cover plate for the hole (not difficult to make)
(this means no cold-start advance/idle up unless you can find the parts from a 1KZ-T)
Need to find a way to make the throttle linkage work (can't use 1KZ-T parts without modification as the throttle lever on that pump is "pushed" to get power, where as this lever is "pulled")
Need to run alternate control/wiring for the glow plugs
Need to run a simple wire for the fuel cut solenoid
If you want a tach signal you'll have to get a SGI-5 or likewise to convert the VR sensor signal on the pump to something a tach can use. But the sensor is there.
I feel like I'm forgetting something.
My point is, this is definitely possible and not too difficult or expensive either.
crushers
post ho
please do the thread, interested.
I have just fitted a 2.8 4M40 pump on my 3ltr 1KZ engine, she started first time on the garage floor, but sadly just ticks over and reves little more! can anyone shine some light on this please?
Ps; I am intending to fit the lump into my boat if I can get it sorted........
I've been driving a 3ltr surf for 4 years and love her! hence the boat engine choice.
Ps; I am intending to fit the lump into my boat if I can get it sorted........
I've been driving a 3ltr surf for 4 years and love her! hence the boat engine choice.
yotahed
Diesel Head
Why dont you guys just put a 3L pump on, add a boost comp top cover, and be done with it.? The 3L has plenty of full load adjustment to get you fuel up to 1kz requirements, and the boost comp is simple to fit. And it will bolt up.
There are so many on ebay right now...
If anyone needs a boost comp top cover, we have about a 100 sitting in the back of the shop...
Just sayin.
There are so many on ebay right now...
If anyone needs a boost comp top cover, we have about a 100 sitting in the back of the shop...
Just sayin.
yotahed
Diesel Head
What is the max fuel delivery of a 3L pump? I suspect it won't be much.
yotahed
Diesel Head
Im not sure exact numbers, but i could find out...
I would think that you could make up for the .2L difference just fine +some. 1full turn usually equates to anywhere from 4-8cc/1000st or more. And you can probably get about 3 full turns before you hit the "just before runaway" area. You should only need 2 max or less.
Ill see if i can find the numbers.
I would think that you could make up for the .2L difference just fine +some. 1full turn usually equates to anywhere from 4-8cc/1000st or more. And you can probably get about 3 full turns before you hit the "just before runaway" area. You should only need 2 max or less.
Ill see if i can find the numbers.
People in the past have fitted 2LT pumps to turbocharged 3L's to get more fuel. This was my main reason for asking. They wouldn't bother if they could get enough from a 3L pump.
yotahed
Diesel Head
I think its more because of the aneroid top cover. A lot of folks dont know how to swap them. Easier to just toss another pump on and go.
yotahed
Diesel Head
Heres a rundown of all 3 pumps and their delivery numbers for various tests. Its in russian, but numbers are all there.
Basically the rpm is the 1200-800-1500etc
The column that says cm3 is the delivery qty, and the number of shots is always 200.
So not too bad to interpret.
Looks to be fairly close (within 5cc over 200st in most every test value.)
So i don't doubt at all that could be made up with a turn of the screw.
I had a 2.5L 4D56T pump on the bench on thursday that i had turned way up(after a rebuild), and got more than double the the test value at full boost full load@1200rpm. That was 2.5 turns in from spec. Just for loose reference. A little does a lot on the VE
Cheers
Basically the rpm is the 1200-800-1500etc
The column that says cm3 is the delivery qty, and the number of shots is always 200.
So not too bad to interpret.
Looks to be fairly close (within 5cc over 200st in most every test value.)
So i don't doubt at all that could be made up with a turn of the screw.
I had a 2.5L 4D56T pump on the bench on thursday that i had turned way up(after a rebuild), and got more than double the the test value at full boost full load@1200rpm. That was 2.5 turns in from spec. Just for loose reference. A little does a lot on the VE
Cheers
Those are the factory calibration numbers. What is of the most interest is how much fuel each pump can deliver with the screws wound out.
For example the VE pump fitted to the cummins 4BT and 6BT are capable of ~180cc/1000 shots max.
Thanks for the reply.....
Timing is good 7* ATDC, firing order is good, I put a pump on pre injector pump to pre-load/ add pressure in-case of air lock, No difference!
I spoke to the guy I bought the pump of and he said the pump was good and had a full re-con pre my buying it on ebay. I'ts got me stumped..
I followed advice from a thread on a site of a chap who had done the job, his advice was extend the slotted mounting holes by 1/4" and the timing would be spot on, that's what I did and when rotating pump a few deg adv/retard, she run's rougher. so I am taking the 7# number from his blog as I did everything he did and the engine runs but won't revve .........
yotahed
Diesel Head
you need to time the pump on the bench before you put it on the motor. Or, if you can see the keyway on the input shaft(take the gear off), you can do it on the motor. much easier on the bench though.
Get yourself the proper timing tool with a dial guage. theyre cheap and itll save you a ton of guessing. It should be timed to xx mm @ outlet A,B,C,D. It should be in your manual. The keyway on the input shaft will tell you what delivery outlet will fire and the rear of the pump has letters for each outlet. Pump shaft rotates to the right(looking at front of pump) so put it to the flat spot before A(it will move back and forth a bit with no tension before the next cam lobe) Make sure to zero your guage while rotating back and forth a little a few times to ensure you're at the BDC of that stroke.
Use the tool to attain the proper stroke of the plunger from the manual, lock it with the timing lock bolt at the front. kind of tricky with only two hands, but you'll get it.
install pump, install timing gear, make a new mark on the gear in relation to the case as well as the pump flange to the mounting. Timed. None of this degrees crap on a VE. and you now have your permanent marks for future reference, when you do a belt change, etc.
Get yourself the proper timing tool with a dial guage. theyre cheap and itll save you a ton of guessing. It should be timed to xx mm @ outlet A,B,C,D. It should be in your manual. The keyway on the input shaft will tell you what delivery outlet will fire and the rear of the pump has letters for each outlet. Pump shaft rotates to the right(looking at front of pump) so put it to the flat spot before A(it will move back and forth a bit with no tension before the next cam lobe) Make sure to zero your guage while rotating back and forth a little a few times to ensure you're at the BDC of that stroke.
Use the tool to attain the proper stroke of the plunger from the manual, lock it with the timing lock bolt at the front. kind of tricky with only two hands, but you'll get it.
install pump, install timing gear, make a new mark on the gear in relation to the case as well as the pump flange to the mounting. Timed. None of this degrees crap on a VE. and you now have your permanent marks for future reference, when you do a belt change, etc.
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yotahed
Diesel Head
It was just for a comparison of stock values. not much difference to begin with really.
as for the 4d56T pump (which is very similar, and probably just a turned up version of the 4M40 pump) it attained around 45cc for 500St, so thats 90cc @ 1000St.
If I remember I think it was supposed to be ~50-51cc@1000St at full load/boost@ 1250rpm. So thats about 90% more than stock.
and you wind the screw IN on a VE, not out.
Thanks for that...
The timing can't be to far out as the keyed shaft of the pump fits through a gear that is driven from the crank gear, a toothed pulley is then bolted unto the driven assembly that has a dowel pin. The cam is then driven via a timing belt from the pump. I was wondering would it still run if the firing order was not correct? I think the order is correct but could it be out as in D needing moved anticlockwise to A, or clockwise ( looking at back of pump )?
The timing can't be to far out as the keyed shaft of the pump fits through a gear that is driven from the crank gear, a toothed pulley is then bolted unto the driven assembly that has a dowel pin. The cam is then driven via a timing belt from the pump. I was wondering would it still run if the firing order was not correct? I think the order is correct but could it be out as in D needing moved anticlockwise to A, or clockwise ( looking at back of pump )?
yotahed
Diesel Head
The pump itself is what needs to be timed correctly.
Where the gear and pulley are in relation to the crank is the stock location for the stock pump and the stock marks.
After you time the pump as per above (ill try to get the proper spec for you), look at where the key way on the shaft will be in relation to the stock location with all the stock marks lined up. If you can fit the pump back on within the adjustment of the slotted mounting holes, then youre good, just make new matchmarks on the pump flange and timing case. If its too far out to get the pump on with the adjustment range of the holes, you will need to jump a tooth on both the gear and cam belt pulley (i assume they will move as one.) so the pump will go on, and make new timing marks on both for reference. This will only affect the pump timing and wont affect the cam or crank relationship as long as you line everything up stock before you start and dont move it.
If your firing order is out, youll need to verify your line routing. If the pump fires A,B,C,D for example, your order is 1,3,4,2 , your lines would be 1-A, 2-C, 3-D, 4-B. depending on how the pump is timed. If it states that you must time it to outlet D first, then outlet D is number 1.
It certainly wont run if its not correct..
Where the gear and pulley are in relation to the crank is the stock location for the stock pump and the stock marks.
After you time the pump as per above (ill try to get the proper spec for you), look at where the key way on the shaft will be in relation to the stock location with all the stock marks lined up. If you can fit the pump back on within the adjustment of the slotted mounting holes, then youre good, just make new matchmarks on the pump flange and timing case. If its too far out to get the pump on with the adjustment range of the holes, you will need to jump a tooth on both the gear and cam belt pulley (i assume they will move as one.) so the pump will go on, and make new timing marks on both for reference. This will only affect the pump timing and wont affect the cam or crank relationship as long as you line everything up stock before you start and dont move it.
If your firing order is out, youll need to verify your line routing. If the pump fires A,B,C,D for example, your order is 1,3,4,2 , your lines would be 1-A, 2-C, 3-D, 4-B. depending on how the pump is timed. If it states that you must time it to outlet D first, then outlet D is number 1.
It certainly wont run if its not correct..
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