Megasquirt in a 40 (1 Viewer)

[matt.mcinnes]

Matt
Thanks for the pictures - that is very interesting. The MS is easily altered for a second input - do you know what type of output the 3FE produces, it looks like and VR but conditioned so it's a square output rather than an alternating AC wave - if thats the case it's even better because the MS uses quite a lot of circuitry to condition the optput and is that can be ommited it's much cleaner. I am investigating the Wolf system, looks reasonable in price and has all the functions IO etc you could need.

All you need to know here in the link below about the 3FE's output

IH8MUD.com Forum - View Single Post - 2F + 3F-E = 2F-ETI Into My FJ40 <-- Link

As for the Wolf V500, this is a more expencive than M/S but I can even control the Turbo boost with it, It's full 3D lap top mapping and data logging will be better too.
Been able to contol the boost means I can cut down on wastegate creep as well as lag and have a far smoother boost too.

 

[malcb]

All you need to know here in the link below about the 3FE's output

IH8MUD.com Forum - View Single Post - 2F + 3F-E = 2F-ETI Into My FJ40 <-- Link

I knew I had seem something, didn't remember it was in your thread which is now so long it's hard to find stuff in it!

Looks like a VR output so the MS conditioning would be required, basically the ecu needs to trigger only at wither the rising for falling part of the output as it crosses 0V, if it tiggers at every crossing there will be too many inputs and you can't tell which is which.

I could implement a very simple boost control with MS, noting proprtional of clever, just open a valve as xPSI, I think the Wolf unit would advance on that. Just having a few more spare I/O would almost make the Wolf unit worthwhile. When the Uk dealer gets back into the office 7th of Jan I will give them a call and get UK prices which will probably the same as AU or if I am lucky US $ prices!

 

[matt.mcinnes]

I knew I had seem something, didn't remember it was in your thread which is now so long it's hard to find stuff in it!

On the first post at the top of every page is a Search Thread Option. That may help.

 

[joeyg1973]

Joey,

I considered welding the 36-1 wheel - few quick tacks and some short runs, didn't really fancy drilling and bolting or welding. Then I started thinking about the supercharger and decided I would drill out the rivets that hold the V pulley on, get a flat belt drive pulley (not toothed) machined up, either repace the water pump pulley or fit an electric water pump (one of my more wacko ideas) and replace the alternator with a Jag one and fit a belt tensioner. The 36-1 would mount on the flat belt pulley.

HA, that is more or less what I was thinking. Drill out the rivets, make a serpentine pulley and toothed wheel on my lathe and mill, then bolt it back to the balancer. However looking at the pulley/balancer it looks like the balancer is the only part that will separate as the pulley is a single piece attached to the shaft with the keyway and that would make fabricating that up a challenge for me.

I was also considering dumping the water pump with this. Pegasus -Davies Craig 12 Volt Electric Water Pump, 80 Liter/min

I am definately going to run an electric power steering pump from a Toyota MR2. It's rated at 2000 psi, a Saginaw pump is only 1500 for performance ones. I would up finding a seller on Ebay in the UK of all places that had the PS pump, PS ECU, PS Driver, and steering wheel sensor for 40 lbs and about 50 lbs shipping this week. That comes out to around $170. In the US the PS pump alone goes goes for between 150 -250. Apparently you have a ton of MR2 Gen II running around there in the UK. With these I should be able to do variable PS following the instructions I found here. Toyota MR2 Power Steering System I am connecting this to a 70's era International Harvester Scout II Saginaw Gear.

Fan is definitely going to be electric.

As for the alternator I figure a good old GM CS-130 one wire from the scrap heap should be good for now, about 140 amps new. I Think this should be enough juice to power it but I may go with a Mean Green 200 amp on at some point.

If I do go with the electric water pump at some point, That would meant that the only thing I would have running directly off the motor would be the alternator. At least until I get around to putting on the SC.

I think a knock sensor makes good sense - difficulty is getting a unit that is tuned to the frequecy of noise emitted when the cylinder "rings", that is dependant on bore diameter and should serve to elimanate lots of the engine noise. Using a spectrum analyiser is what is needed and my searching on the net suggestes something like daqarta.com might work - might even be used to generate a simulated knock saves hitting the engine with a spanner!

I remember reading somewhere that all knocks, no matter what the engine, had a very narrow and specific range of frequency and almost all knock sensors are generically tuned for it. It makes sense if you think about, it would cost a fortune if you had to create a new individual sensor for every model of motor. I am in no way speaking with any authority here so please correct me if I am wrong. I will have to look at that daqarta.com site later tonight.

Too bad you, Mac, and myself don't all live on the same continent, sounds like we would be competing for the most technologically advanced Frankencruiser.

 

[joeyg1973]

Matt
Thanks for the pictures - that is very interesting. The MS is easily altered for a second input

So I know that I am using an MS2 and you are using an MS1 with the MS extra code. I am hoping that you can point me to how to modify the MS for a second input, and once I do that, how I can utilize the second input through the Megatune software?

FYI: I didn't put my MS together, I bought it pre-assembled as I didn't have enough confidence in my electronic and soldering skills when I decided to go with the MS2 about a year ago.

Also, you can get a 3fe dist or any other cruiser part for that matter from here. Welcome to CruiserParts.netThey are more of a junkyard for cruisers then they are an aftermarket parts place like SOR or Man-a-fre so they are less focused on customer service and support and more into getting you the part you want at a fair price.

 

[matt.mcinnes]

Too bad you, Mac, and myself don't all live on the same continent, sounds like we would be competing for the most technologically advanced Frankencruiser.

When your done post up ya Dyno chart

Also I wont be running a knock sensor as first considered the Wolf V500 means we will never get close too detonation

 

[joeyg1973]

Also I wont be running a knock sensor as first considered the Wolf V500 means we will never get close too detonation

I have no clue what you are trying to say here. Speak proper English like us guys here in NYC. Oh and make your toilet water spin in the right direction too when you flush.

 

[joeyg1973]

I just noticed something peculiar... the forum automatically stars out the word scrape as in to "scrape off a gasket" like it is a curse word... That's just fxxxing wacked!

 

[joeyg1973]

Fuel pump and fuel regulator, final fuel system will probably run a surge tank but for the moment its just pickup from the tank.

A surge tank is only if you are going to have a low PSI pump, like the a mechanical or electric carb pump, feed the high PSI fuel pump. The surge tank is basically a buffer so that when you mash the pedal, the hi PSI pump does run dry and the low PSI pump can catch up. Eliminate the mechanical pump on the 2f and put in a GOOD electric pump with PSI matched to your injector setup.

 

[matt.mcinnes]

A surge tank is only if you are going to have a low PSI pump, like the a mechanical or electric carb pump, feed the high PSI fuel pump. The surge tank is basically a buffer so that when you mash the pedal, the hi PSI pump does run dry and the low PSI pump can catch up. Eliminate the mechanical pump on the 2f and put in a GOOD electric pump with PSI matched to your injector setup.

I disagree if you are to do the above you have to upgrade all the fuel lines too and from the tank to suit the high PSI. It would be dangerous to run the old fuel lines.
I had a friend who did not upgrade his fuel lines in an injected HighLux (MiniTruck). First trip out it burst a fuel line on a hill climb, he and his G/F jumped from the blazing truck, still moving and in gear, the truck turned and rolled back down the hill over his G/F. She was air lifted with a broken back and head injuries, The truck started a bush fire and was a total loss. Luckily the wind direction was in their favor. She has recovered luckily pretty well from her injuries but refuses to go wheeling any more.

The old mech 2F fuel pump runs more than 2400cc/min or 146.5cu.in/min.

So by using a surge tank you only need instal a high PSI system between that and the fuel rail and back. This in my opinion is a much safer option.

Or upgrade all the fuel lines to suit into and out of the main tank.

 

[joeyg1973]

I disagree if you are to do the above you have to upgrade all the fuel lines too and from the tank to suit the high PSI. It would be dangerous to run the old fuel lines.
I had a friend who did not upgrade his fuel lines in an injected HighLux (MiniTruck). First trip out it burst a fuel line on a hill climb, he and his G/F jumped from the blazing truck, still moving and in gear, the truck turned and rolled back down the hill over his G/F. She was air lifted with a broken back and head injuries, The truck started a bush fire and was a total loss. Luckily the wind direction was in their favor. She has recovered luckily pretty well from her injuries but refuses to go wheeling any more.

The old mech 2F fuel pump runs more than 2400cc/min or 146.5cu.in/min.

So by using a surge tank you only need instal a high PSI system between that and the fuel rail and back. This in my opinion is a much safer option.

Or upgrade all the fuel lines to suit into and out of the tank.

I keep forgettting that the problem with common sense is that it isn't that common.

I absolutely agree with you, upgrade the lines, I didn't mention it because I figured it to be common sense. Not upgrading the lines would be described here in Jersey as "5 pounds of s*** in a 1 pound bag."

I don't agree with you on keeping the mech fuel pump, plus the electric pump, it's overly complex and creates an unnecessary failure point. It's worth the extra expense in my opinion to upgrade the fuel lines. Granted you are not doing a TBI which is at a lower PSI than what you are doing like this guy, but look at the "Fuel Delivery" section on this page for some ideas of how to do this on the cheap. http://home.earthlink.net/~jcgebhart/msindex.html

Either way you go, you should be fine, both have their pluses and minuses.

Joe

 

[matt.mcinnes]

I keep forgettting that the problem with common sense is that it isn't that common.

I absolutely agree with you, upgrade the lines, I didn't mention it because I figured it to be common sense. Not upgrading the lines would be described here in Jersey as "5 pounds of s*** in a 1 pound bag."

I don't agree with you on keeping the mech fuel pump, plus the electric pump, it's overly complex and creates an unnecessary failure point. It's worth the extra expense in my opinion to upgrade the fuel lines. Granted you are not doing a TBI which is at a lower PSI than what you are doing like this guy, but look at the "Fuel Delivery" section on this page for some ideas of how to do this on the cheap. http://home.earthlink.net/~jcgebhart/msindex.html

Either way you go, you should be fine, both have their pluses and minuses.

Joe

I agree it gives more failure points but a 2F mech pump are common as muck and easier to replace and rarely fail if maintained. Also as we compete in the truck we tend to carry 2 of everything. If however I find the 2F's mech pump lacking I will upgrade.

I also don't have high pressure fuel lines under he truck this way another bonus when competing hard.

 

[malcb]

A surge tank is only if you are going to have a low PSI pump, like the a mechanical or electric carb pump, feed the high PSI fuel pump. The surge tank is basically a buffer so that when you mash the pedal, the hi PSI pump does run dry and the low PSI pump can catch up. Eliminate the mechanical pump on the 2f and put in a GOOD electric pump with PSI matched to your injector setup.

I have a LP electric pump spare and like Matt said see some advantage in keeping the HP fuel in the bay. The tank will be at the back and the HP pump will work better with the head of the surge tank on it, also a nice way of allowing the fuel to degas. I intend to keep the option of using the mech pump if I have to, ie the electic LP fails.

Seeing as I am using a specially fabricated AL tank I have also considered a baffle and trap system in the tank (as you might use in a sump) or just a sump in the tank and the HP pump at the rear near the tank, although simpler it does mean protecting the fuel lines.

Don't worry - I would never use the original fuel lines!

Strange story - my father in law once took a bus load of school kids on a coach to Holland from the UK. On the return trip the bus broke down, the driver had him operating a priming pump to help feed fuel into the HP pump so they could get off the motorway - he had a blister when they got to the exit!

 

[matt.mcinnes]

One thing I for got to mention is the surge tank means you have less fuel pick up issues at interesting angles if designed corectly over the main fuel tank, as your fuel level drops.

I have an idea for mounting my custom made one under the brake booster between the firewall and inner fender/wing. this will make the surge tank slighty triangular in shape if you understand where I mean to fit it. Remember too my brake booster is on my drivers side

It's sort of an empty space that I can make use of if I can fit it in there.

 

[malcb]

I have an idea for mounting my custom made one under the brake booster between the firewall and inner fender/wing. this will make the surge tank slighty triangular in shape if you understand where I mean to fit it.

I have moved the battery out of the engine bay (because it's a pain having it in the way and I need more weight at the rear not the front) and intend using the exact same space but for a cylindrical surge tank with the outlet right on the base rather than the side.

On the issue of fire have you thought about running a plumbed in extinguisher with the trigger in the cab or do you already have to to that for your comps? I have been looking at a 4.25L unit with 6 nozzels and 4M of piping , two mechanical releases for around £200 - seems a worthwhile investment/insurance (more so for you given the dosh in the engine), particularly with the 2F not being a crossflow.
Also one disadvantage of the surge tank is more fuel in the engine bay and munted on the firewall at that, one more reason I have moved the battery.

I should have said "exact same space as you"

 

[matt.mcinnes]

My Batteries

 

[joeyg1973]

One thing I for got to mention is the surge tank means you have less fuel pick up issues at interesting angles if designed corectly over the main fuel tank, as your fuel level drops.

I had thought about that, I intend on putting a short length of hose in the tank itself with a weight attached so that it will follow the fuel when I get in those interesting angles.

 

[Sputnik40]

Well, while I'll admit this is a good thread - it doesn't help with the comments that Joey had made on Marshall's build up thread as to how great the MS system is compared to the GM Prom system some of us are running. I'd like to see some simple (read - other than wiring houses - I'm electrictronically and programming ignorant) posts clarifying the simplicity of the MS2 system and how it would be a good alternative to the technically challenged .

Sorry for the interruption - carry on gents.

 

[Mr. Toad]

What fuel lines do you need to replace? The intake line from the fuel tank to the pump is de-pressurized, since the pump is actually sucking on it like a straw. On my system, the Throttle Body had a pressure relief valve set at something like 14 or 15#. That's the most the pressurized side will ever see. Everything on the return side of the relief valve is not pressurized because there's no terminal restriction.

That leaves the line between the pump and the injectors. My Throttle Body system used an inline pump that generated about 10-12 psi. I can't imagine that the OEM hard lines between the pump and the Throttle Body couldn't handle those pressures (although I didn't use the factory lines b/c my in-line pump was not mounted in the same location as the 2F fuel pump).

Sounds like you guys are building some aerobatic systems that'll run upside down, but if that's not your goal you can do without a surge tank too as long as the pump is below the fuel tank so that it gravity-primes.

 

[joeyg1973]

Well, while I'll admit this is a good thread - it doesn't help with the comments that Joey had made on Marshall's build up thread as to how great the MS system is compared to the GM Prom system some of us are running. I'd like to see some simple (read - other than wiring houses - I'm electrictronically and programming ignorant) posts clarifying the simplicity of the MS2 system and how it would be a good alternative to the technically challenged .

Sorry for the interruption - carry on gents.

I don't think that I ever stated that the simplicity of the MS2 system was it's selling point. What I said was that GM Prom is limited in what you can do with it in relation to the MS2. For about the same price as the GM Prom setup you can get a comparable MS setup with the bonus that you can tune it for your particular liking with nothing more than a laptop and some reading of a manual. Plus when you want to move beyond simple... and you will... you can can with the MS.

I am electronically and programming ignorant too when it comes to the MS, however I am learning. I learned it the same way I learned anything, started reading and learning and that lead to other reading and more learning. When I am done with my project, I will post up a list of parts, vendors, and MS tables so you can get a complete kit ready to go. It will give you the jump start, from there I bet something comes up so that you will want to do and the flexibility of the MS will allow it. Before you know it you too will not be electronically and programming ignorant and will be doing things like water/alcohol injection, distributorless ignition, TPI, and other fun stuff that you can make the MS do. It just adds to the addiction of things you can do to the Cruiser.

Like I said before, if you have to ask why, I can't explain it to you.