Malcb and Mac are both using HP TPI systems, the TBI is a LP system. With the HP system you do need to replace your fuel lines or go with a surge tank if you want to keep the old LP system.
Megasquirt in a 40
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Malcb and Mac are both using HP TPI systems, the TBI is a LP system. With the HP system you do need to replace your fuel lines or go with a surge tank if you want to keep the old LP system.
Hopefully not too aerobatic, my suspension won't take even close to 6G!.
As Joey said the multipoint injectors run at higher pressures than TBI. 40PSI but the pump will often produce 80psi+. Other considerations are the tank vent must be functioning, fuel tanks have been both "sucked in" (and perhaps inflated?) by fuel injection systems in the past (not 40 series conversions, production cars)
My main reason for replacing all the lines rather than extending them is they are 30 years old and not in the best condition, I suppose I could scrimp and not upgrade the feed to the pump, but the return needs replacing, it it gets crushed at a point on the way back to the tank the pump could burst the 30 year old low pressure line and spray fuel around the exhaust.
As a not to running upsidedown - there are engines that have to do that - some lifeboats used by the coastguards can right themselves are rollong over and the engines have to keep running. It's not so much the position of the pump it's the fuel pickup, if pickup is at the bottom and the tank is upsidedown the pickup is in air.
Well, while I'll admit this is a good thread - it doesn't help with the comments that Joey had made on Marshall's build up thread as to how great the MS system is compared to the GM Prom system some of us are running. I'd like to see some simple (read - other than wiring houses - I'm electrictronically and programming ignorant) posts clarifying the simplicity of the MS2 system and how it would be a good alternative to the technically challenged.
Sorry for the interruption - carry on gents.
It's all horses for courses - but first off MS is good if you don't want to remain electronically ignorant, I think it unlikely that you won't need a soldering iron when carrying out a retrofit like an 2F requires. If you are looking to change the ecu on an already EFI motor there are often "plug and play" looms sold by vendors with an already assembled ad programmed MS. That said a simple install with the MS unit supplied assembled won't mean learning a huge amount.
Something like the GM conversion can go several routes - you can fit a kit of parts with a pre-programmed chip, for improved preformance the chip really needs be programmed to suit the vehicle on a rolling road, thats additional cost and if you make mods later you might have to go through the process again. Alternatively you can get right into the assembly language spend lots of time learning about the chip and program it yourself - not for the faint hearted.
This is where MS really pays off. You can alter the programming on the chip anytime you want - even altering A/F ratios as you drive - this aids tuning and means the rolling road exercise might not be required, or perhaps is only required for the initial tuning. MS is now capable of running closed loop with wideband O2 sensors, I don't know the GM system that people in the US use very well but am sure it doesn't support wideband O2.
The best solution is to use something like the Wolf V500 Matt is using, it's a bit more expensive you have better support, quality of build and design. Wolf know Toyota engines well which should make interfacing easier.
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I don't think that I ever stated that the simplicity of the MS2 system was it's selling point. What I said was that GM Prom is limited in what you can do with it in relation to the MS2. For about the same price as the GM Prom setup you can get a comparable MS setup with the bonus that you can tune it for your particular liking with nothing more than a laptop and some reading of a manual. Plus when you want to move beyond simple... and you will... you can can with the MS.
I am electronically and programming ignorant too when it comes to the MS, however I am learning. I learned it the same way I learned anything, started reading and learning and that lead to other reading and more learning. When I am done with my project, I will post up a list of parts, vendors, and MS tables so you can get a complete kit ready to go. It will give you the jump start, from there I bet something comes up so that you will want to do and the flexibility of the MS will allow it. Before you know it you too will not be electronically and programming ignorant and will be doing things like water/alcohol injection, distributorless ignition, TPI, and other fun stuff that you can make the MS do. It just adds to the addiction of things you can do to the Cruiser.
Like I said before, if you have to ask why, I can't explain it to you.
My only issue. From reading on this board and some others you have never installed a MS system? Your still in the gathering stages? If so why would you come into the Big Gay Thread and tell people to ditch the TBI setup and go MS when all you have done is read what was on the internet?
I don't think that I ever stated that the simplicity of the MS2 system was it's selling point. What I said was that GM Prom is limited in what you can do with it in relation to the MS2. For about the same price as the GM Prom setup you can get a comparable MS setup with the bonus that you can tune it for your particular liking with nothing more than a laptop and some reading of a manual. Plus when you want to move beyond simple... and you will... you can can with the MS.To kinda quote Donald Southerland "...I don't work on em, I just drive em..." While I've built nearly everything on my 40 including the engine, t-case, SOA, and many other mods like installing an SM420 (not to mention the original frame off) - often with the help of good friends, reliability and simplicity is key here. For a one time investment of $800 - I have a complete and reliable TBI system (with all the kool Downey stuff) that has run for around 4 years now - heck, I might had better think about a new cap, rotor and plugs. Two weekends ago I run it sideways thru some boulders for almost an hour without a hickup - it's been all kinds of places. If I want more performance for the buck - I'll be ponying up for an LS1.
....that's not the point. Can the average Joe with little or no extra time, use this system? It sounds great, but if I have to spend a lifetime installing and programming - for the buck, TBI is just hunky dory by me
Not to bash anyone using MS2, that's not my point - I'll continue reading with interest and hope to learn a bit.
I don't think that I ever stated that the simplicity of the MS2 system was it's selling point. What I said was that GM Prom is limited in what you can do with it in relation to the MS2. For about the same price as the GM Prom setup you can get a comparable MS setup with the bonus that you can tune it for your particular liking with nothing more than a laptop and some reading of a manual. Plus when you want to move beyond simple... and you will... you can can with the MS.To kinda quote Donald Southerland "...I don't work on em, I just drive em..." While I've built nearly everything on my 40 including the engine, t-case, SOA, and many other mods like installing an SM420 (not to mention the original frame off) - often with the help of good friends, reliability and simplicity is key here. For a one time investment of $800 - I have a complete and reliable TBI system (with all the kool Downey stuff) that has run for around 4 years now - heck, I might had better think about a new cap, rotor and plugs. Two weekends ago I run it sideways thru some boulders for almost an hour without a hickup - it's been all kinds of places. If I want more performance for the buck - I'll be ponying up for an LS1.
....that's not the point. Can the average Joe with little or no extra time, use this system? It sounds great, but if I have to spend a lifetime installing and programming - for the buck, TBI is just hunky dory by me
Not to bash anyone using MS2, that's not my point - I'll continue reading with interest and hope to learn a bit
Please don't sell yourself short here Sputnik40, you are obviously a very intelligent person as is evident from your discussion here.
Yes the average Joe with little or no extra time can use this system. You don't have to spend a lifetime installing and programming, it's a lot easier to setup then you are thinking. It's not really that much harder than the GM ECU, it is just different. Heck if you get a wide band O2 sensor, the latest version of MS2 will automagically adjust your tables for you, all you need to do is drive around a bit. I can't garentee, but I bet the MS2 with a WB O2 sensor solves your SM420 issue.
Joe
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....that's not the point. Can the average Joe with little or no extra time, use this system? It sounds great, but if I have to spend a lifetime installing and programming - for the buck, TBI is just hunky dory by me
Not to bash anyone using MS2, that's not my point - I'll continue reading with interest and hope to learn a bit
No, using MS tuning / programming or mapping the unit yourself will mean learning more about engines, fueling, and if you use it for ignition control, ignition timing.
You might be able to get a MS unit pre-programmed BUT it will end up costing more than the GM TBI and the only advantage of the MS (for most users, stock or mildly modified engines) is being able to program it yourself.
If you want to do something different (wacky cams, high compression, turbo, supercharger nitros!) the GM unit might not be suitable.
As I said in an earlier post, if you want the reliability of a GM ecu but need or want to do the tuning yourself, I would look at something
like the WOF V500 not the MS but thats quite a bit more money.
Nope I never have installed an MS system. I do however have full confidence that it will work with little to no effort on the first try. Literally tens of thousands have installed the MS on everything, Weinkel engines that went into airplanes, 2 stroke motorcycle engines, boats, you name it and there is probably someone out there that has installed an MS on it. It is a huge pool of community knowledge that is very easy to tap into if you have an issue, with the GM ECU you don't have that. I am not still in the gathering stages, but I am always reevaluated my current setup and planning for the future because I want the best setup I can get. I never came into the Big Gay thread and said dump the TBI. I said dump the GM ECU and use the MS2, keep everything else though. In my opinion you will be much happier with the MS for the cost. There are others that have built a F series motor with the MS already so there is one thing I can guarantee, it works great.
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I would argue that the MS isn't any more or less reliable than the GM or the WOF V500. In fact, it may be more reliable than the GM ECU simply by the fact that they have been installed in airplanes. I would also argue that the GM ECU was built with economics in mind, GM builds their ECU using the lowest cost parts they can get away with. Save 5 cents over a production run of several million and it really adds up. Save 5 cents on an MS, you aren't saving anything considering the trouble it may cause.
I think this speaks mountains - now not to highjack Joey's thread - but if I'm running an Astrovan fuel injection setup with a DUI on Downey adapters - with the standard GM O2 sensor - what would it take to dump the GM ECU and go with MS2? Costs is an issue - as well as the learning curve...harness, newer O2 sensor ok in my immediate post header bunged in location, etc. Very interested.
Still remember watching Mike M. (South Florida Crew to Marshall) struggle to get timing and fuel issues resolved using something similar to MS on a hot F engine running a Toyota electronic dizzy and Holley Projection - he finally dumped it and went GM like the rest of us...he never looked back and his 40 plain gets it!
...and yes, I am kinda dense - just plain lazyness, I like chasing women, surfing, partying and what not way too much to have enough time to learn new tricks. Only reason I'm into the topic this week as I'm down with the fawking flu!
It's not my thread, it's everybody's thread.
MS2 assembled unit: 430.00 http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/megasquirtii-system-pcb357-assembled-unit-p-165.html
MS2 Wiring harness: 65.00 MegaSquirt I / II Wiring Harness DIYAutoTune.com
Innovate WB-O2 : 199.00 Innovate LC-1 Digital Wideband o2 Controller with Bosch LSU4.2 Sensor DIYAutoTune.com
The only reason you need to go with the WB-O2 is because you said you have had issues with the SM420. The next person that comes along with an SM420 can stick to the NB-O2 sensor and go with your tables once the MS2 has them configured from driving about a bit.
Similar, but not an MS. It was probably the the old Holley Projection computer which is well known to be a turd in a box. The Holley TBI on the other hand is a copy of the GM/Rodchester TBI with 40% better air flow. You can find these on Ebay in good condition on the cheap. I have the specific casting numbers for the Holley that you want to look for at work and I will post that here. Yeah I shot off on a tangent, I do that.
Sorry to hear you are sick, flu sucks. I don't like chasing women and partying, I like actually getting the women and making sure they are always willing to party with me when I call.
Leaves me plenty of time to do the other things that matter.For using the Toyota 3fe distributor on an MS2 you need to go to the MS2 Extra code and follow the instructions here.
MS2-Extra Nippondenso CAS Manual
MS2-Extra Nippondenso CAS Manual
Yep that's the route I have gone (this time around) but I am using two optical inputs which means less signal conditioning, just 4N25's and pull up resistors, just because I have already adapted an optical dual pickup to fit into a 2F dizzy.
Just that link shows how much more the user needs to know to make a MS work on say a 3FE with minimal changes to the sensors etc. Also the board uses a whole load of components but to add a second VR input they go the IC route and use an LM1815 chip, just when the learner gets started the have to grasp another circuit.
Heres a laugh - MS kits are hard to get in the UK, assembled units are easier but around £300 ie $600 for a basic unit!!!!!!!!!!
True - I have read about a guy flying a kit plane with a Subaru engine and DIY ECU - think it was MS. Rather him than me, I think he had an emergency landing during his testing but that was cause his cooling wasn't working, not related to the ECU.
Nothing in the MS unit will make it less reliable, the PCB is very good quality four layer, it's more a question of the build quality and mis-matches between components, Idle Air Control Valves drawing more than expected etc. The 37 pin printer connector isn't the most weather resistant fitting though!
As to costs, again your right but is GM stuff up for the sake of 5 cents on a million units and the recall cost $100 each :whoops: if a B&G kit has a duff component and they all fail not a single one of the customers is likely to get anything out of it.
Then buy it from the link I supplied and have it shipped over there, given the exchange rate with shipping it should cost less.
I already have what I need but whe my Aunt comes over from Washington in March I might get her to bring something across, either that or she might push it into a postbag for me, duty is a pain mostly because of the handling charges, I had $120 worth of parts sent over a while back, duty was about $18 and the handling charge for the duty was $25! That and they always charge duty on the postage dispite the fact there is not duty on postage (it's hardly goods!)
What amazes me is people in the UK pay those sort of prices!
Ahh yes I do agree there, the 37 pin is a poor connector choice, but it is nothing that a lot of silicon can't fix.
The Microsquirt and the new Mircrosquirt Sequencer both use Amp connectors which is much better.
Sub thread? Superchargers with Megasquirt
Joey,
Forgot about you comment here. The M62 on the Merc is neat, as well as the magnetic clutch it has the bypass built in to the unit (otherwise when the supercharger stopped spinning no air would get past the rotors).
Knew a guy who had an SLK, bought it second hand, didn't think it had any faults and was quite happy with it. 6 months later when he took it in for service the gave him a load car, same model, he couldn't belive the difference in preformance and told them he now thought there was something wrong with his car, they checked and the supercharger clutch wasn't working.
From memory the M62 clears .62 cubic feet per rev so with a low reving engine like the 2F it should work out OK, the charger will rev to about 14000 max, depending to what issue it is. I think I still have the calcs somewhere for the M62 or M90 models as the was my first choice but an M112 (1.12 cu ft per rev) came up and was cheap and mint condition! It's from a Jaguar KXR, 4.2 engine that revs well past 4000 rpm!. I shouldn't need an intercooler for the low boost levels I am looking at but the thing is so big I will have to mount it on the dizzy side of the engine and piping up an intercooler would be almost as easy as not.
The M45 charger as used on the Mini is too small for a 2F but they are so cheap you could run two for the price of one! They are going to be harder to get now the Mini Cooper is using a turbo.
Joey,
Forgot about you comment here. The M62 on the Merc is neat, as well as the magnetic clutch it has the bypass built in to the unit (otherwise when the supercharger stopped spinning no air would get past the rotors).
Knew a guy who had an SLK, bought it second hand, didn't think it had any faults and was quite happy with it. 6 months later when he took it in for service the gave him a load car, same model, he couldn't belive the difference in preformance and told them he now thought there was something wrong with his car, they checked and the supercharger clutch wasn't working.
From memory the M62 clears .62 cubic feet per rev so with a low reving engine like the 2F it should work out OK, the charger will rev to about 14000 max, depending to what issue it is. I think I still have the calcs somewhere for the M62 or M90 models as the was my first choice but an M112 (1.12 cu ft per rev) came up and was cheap and mint condition! It's from a Jaguar KXR, 4.2 engine that revs well past 4000 rpm!. I shouldn't need an intercooler for the low boost levels I am looking at but the thing is so big I will have to mount it on the dizzy side of the engine and piping up an intercooler would be almost as easy as not.
The M45 charger as used on the Mini is too small for a 2F but they are so cheap you could run two for the price of one! They are going to be harder to get now the Mini Cooper is using a turbo.
You might want to look into water/alcohol injection. It cools the compressed air as well as gives an added charge. I know that it was suggested to Mac in his buildup thread, but I still haven't read all of it because it might be longer than "War and Peace", so I don't know if he decided to go with that or an intercooler and why he choose what he did.
If you can find the calcs for the m90 and m62 I would love to see them.
That's certinaly another thread. With the cost of fuel in the US, I would just run a bit richer and use the fuel to cool the charge before I bothered with water/alcohol injection
. Here in the UK it's probably a good idea to use water and save fuel, we are at about $9 a gallon if I have the conversion right (£1.05 a litre), when I fill up my car it about $120 for a tank. On top of that I pay $700 a year as a road tax to drive on the roads, (the FJ45's are old enough to escape emmisions based charging and are only $300).With the low levels of boost I am planning I don't think I will need intercooling, I do have a huge intercooler if I need it.
