Maximum incline angle before rollover danger?
- Thread starter Black Rhino 13
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Are you just trying to clarify skintunes comments, or is this your view?
Both. It's correct that if you pay attention to the device, you forget what's actually going on around you. I like pushing my rig to the limits when i wheeled my minis. Now that I have a bigger and heavier vehicle, & my DD. I push it, but not max it out. Every place to wheel has different situations, so you go accordingly. Also every vehicle is built differently. My past vehicles were built to wheel hard. My current one is to wheel/overland/family bonding rig. It will be built to if I have to go over an obstacle, it can do it on its own or help of the winch.
Having a reference point is fine I guess
I will stick with the seat of my pants meter
Even when my 80 had only 3 inches of lift it still was pretty tippy
And now even worse
I feel that a liffted 80 is not a very stable vehicle in off camber situations period, maybe stock it is ok
That is just my opinion, everyone is different
Now if I had already flopped my 80 then I would probably not really care
But I dont really want to find out what that threshhold is, I know I have come really close a lot of times.
I will stick with the seat of my pants meter
Even when my 80 had only 3 inches of lift it still was pretty tippy
And now even worse
I feel that a liffted 80 is not a very stable vehicle in off camber situations period, maybe stock it is ok
That is just my opinion, everyone is different
Now if I had already flopped my 80 then I would probably not really care
But I dont really want to find out what that threshhold is, I know I have come really close a lot of times.
I think I see what youre saying, but I dont necessarily agree with it or the notion that we shouldn't rely on mechanical devices. Think about the basic argument of that statement and then consider all the equipment on a vehicle we use to gather information. And then there is the vehicle itself...
Clearly technology has its limits (especially a sloppy inclinometer like the ones I've had), and the "seat of the pants" method of processing data is difficult to duplicate mechanically if not impossible at this point, but I just don't think it has to be an either or, black or white kind of a thing. Considering all the action involved in driving a car suggests we can do more than one thing at a time, and it seem like having a little extra information, as long as its accurate, couldnt hurt.
More than the debate over the utility of the inclinometer, I'm fascinated by the comments made by skintunes and looking for some clarification about this idea that how one decides to gather information somehow determines whether one is "wheeling" or not...
Either you get it or you don't.... I tell most people
Objective is just that- Nothing differnt than mounting a 2 way level in your truck. Objective does not account for your COG, Wheelbase, contact pressure, moisture,friction coefficient , Windspeed. Just degrees. period.
As a kid 30 years ago -I learned to wheel in 2wd vehicles- getting them to places some of you with locked modified vehicles would dare go. Shortly after we could afford minitrucks , than came 40's and such- we were not buying gadgets although some of us had em- more for the passengers to enjoy- We learned to wheel by feel- I am a firm believer in Science- I am an Automotive Elec/Mech Engineer and a Musician. To my drum students i have a scientific/ergonomic approach But within a short period of time I direct them to the aspect of GROOVE. This is not a tangible factor but one that has infinite variables-Not unlike Wheeling/or Boating - You need to trust your gut,knowledge , equip, skills and seat of your pants. And the other players you share the stage with- I have seen rollovers caused by passengers doing stupid s$%t as well as dopey spotters .
This is a lot of great info from all. I've had this exact thing on my mind because when we ship our rig to Honduras we will be encountering lots of steep and generally crazy "roads". I bought a inclinometer sometime back and have yet to mount it because of the debate as to whether it can actually help. I completely understand the need for "feeling" your situation at hand, but I can also see the need or advantage of a inclinometer as a reference point especially when your possibly traversing a new area. I'm guessing that it's safe to assume that there's no straight up answer (to be or not to be) and that this may be one of those things where there are great ideas but it comes down to personal preference? Thanks!
~Daniel
Sent from deep in the mountains of Honduras using only sticks and rocks.
~Daniel
Sent from deep in the mountains of Honduras using only sticks and rocks.
- Thread starter
- #28
I have a wife and two little girls. We all love to do what we call "off-roading". Some might find what we do cautious and boring. Some might find it extreme and irresponsible. I'm not concerned with what others think about it, unless their perspective can help us have fun and be safe.
We have one vehicle, the 80, so it's our DD, mountain transport, etc... Not looking to slam some beers or Red Bull and go get crazy and irresponsible in the mountains using seat of the pants obstacle navigation and dead reckoning. I use an inclinometer now to have that numerical reference point for different trails and obstacles. It's also useful to start teaching my girls about slope angles for when they start backcountry skiing and need to understand avalanche danger - they'll have some frame of reference. I also have a gas gauge, battery light, oil pressure gauge, tachometer, speedometer, OBDII bluetooth module, GPS, maps, tire pressure gauge, etc... Our lives and vehicles are full of tools and aids.
People can "wheel" however they want (IMO) as long as they aren't endangering others or breaking laws. Let's use this forum to share information which might benefit others.
I like nice stereo equipment. I would never tell someone who was listening to a Bose wave radio that they didn't know music and were lame for not getting a "real" stereo.
Keep it friendly. Let's keep in mind that what we share here is most valuable when it benefits others.
We have one vehicle, the 80, so it's our DD, mountain transport, etc... Not looking to slam some beers or Red Bull and go get crazy and irresponsible in the mountains using seat of the pants obstacle navigation and dead reckoning. I use an inclinometer now to have that numerical reference point for different trails and obstacles. It's also useful to start teaching my girls about slope angles for when they start backcountry skiing and need to understand avalanche danger - they'll have some frame of reference. I also have a gas gauge, battery light, oil pressure gauge, tachometer, speedometer, OBDII bluetooth module, GPS, maps, tire pressure gauge, etc... Our lives and vehicles are full of tools and aids.
People can "wheel" however they want (IMO) as long as they aren't endangering others or breaking laws. Let's use this forum to share information which might benefit others.
I like nice stereo equipment. I would never tell someone who was listening to a Bose wave radio that they didn't know music and were lame for not getting a "real" stereo.
Keep it friendly. Let's keep in mind that what we share here is most valuable when it benefits others.
- Thread starter
- #29
Sometimes people forget that their tongue in cheek humor comes across as aggressive when read on a computer screen.
Thought this was tech. Some seem to think this is the chat section. MIke
Simple answer, put a forklift under one side and lift it until it rolls
. You'll get a very precise angle. There's two problems with this test, first, you're already fxxxed
; secondly, it's a static test, there would be no practical, real world use for the data.
Momentum, surface, weather, driver error, load and mechanical failure all play a part in the potential for a rollover. I rolled an 80 on flat ground.
I've also been at ~45% without incident.
Inclinometers are fun toys but they provide little, if any, useful data. Say what you want about instincts. The human body has an excellent gyroscope. If you feel like you're in trouble, you're probably in trouble.
. You'll get a very precise angle. There's two problems with this test, first, you're already fxxxed; secondly, it's a static test, there would be no practical, real world use for the data.Momentum, surface, weather, driver error, load and mechanical failure all play a part in the potential for a rollover. I rolled an 80 on flat ground.
I've also been at ~45% without incident. Inclinometers are fun toys but they provide little, if any, useful data. Say what you want about instincts. The human body has an excellent gyroscope. If you feel like you're in trouble, you're probably in trouble.
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only one person posted pictures ? i live in florida no hills bigger than a speed bump ! post pics of ur climbs or decents!!
I feel like I've heard this debate before..... Oh yes... A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away.....
Obiwan "Feel the force Luke...trust your insticts"
Luke "I can't see anything with this blast shield on".
Hansolo "I don't go in much for this hocus pocus. I'd take a trusty blaster pistol any day" (or something like that).
Now back to tech... great info here on effects of terrain, center of gravity, road conditions, speed, tire pressures etc. I can appreciate the need to feel what your vehicle is doing and respond to it, but can also appreciate using an inclinometer as a reference point to help understand why the vehicle "feels" unstable despite the same reading on the meter.
Thanks for cleaning things up nuclearlemon.
Obiwan "Feel the force Luke...trust your insticts"
Luke "I can't see anything with this blast shield on".
Hansolo "I don't go in much for this hocus pocus. I'd take a trusty blaster pistol any day" (or something like that).
Now back to tech... great info here on effects of terrain, center of gravity, road conditions, speed, tire pressures etc. I can appreciate the need to feel what your vehicle is doing and respond to it, but can also appreciate using an inclinometer as a reference point to help understand why the vehicle "feels" unstable despite the same reading on the meter.
Thanks for cleaning things up nuclearlemon.
...and over 10,000 other variables.
Having rolled more than 50 times, there is ZERO chance that a gauge has any usefulness over your own instincts. Experience is 100% in this situation, nothing else. 99.999% of offroaders are uncomfortable far before there is much danger.
And, until you've rolled, you have ZERO idea where that point is.
I suggest you don't roll
...and over 10,000 other variables.
Having rolled more than 50 times, there is ZERO chance that a gauge has any usefulness over your own instincts. Experience is 100% in this situation, nothing else. 99.999% of offroaders are uncomfortable far before there is much danger.
And, until you've rolled, you have ZERO idea where that point is.
I suggest you don't roll
That's a lot of variables and experience is the only way to start synthesizing all of them into fluid decision and action in tricky situations. Even with experience drivers will still roll their vehicles.
I don't know if Rhino has rolled or not, but I haven't and will do my best to take your advice not to. His original post seems to me to be an attempt at getting a better understanding of how not to roll. If the only way to figure that out is by rolling than we are all screwed.
- Thread starter
- #37
LoL! I understand that the original question is not one that has a simple answer. I understand that "what is a safe angle?" is a dumb question. I'm one of those people who believes that there is such a thing as a dumb question, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be asked. The problem here is that a good question would be way too specific to be much good to a large, mixed group like this.
So, I asked the general question knowing that I would get a variety of different answers. The thing I like about this is that many people have offered good concrete advice about things to consider which hadn't occurred to me.
I have rolled (and jumped), BTW. Though that was a stock 1986 4Runner at 30 mph on a mountain dirt road. Came around a turn too fast, people were coming up the other direction, I braked, fish tailed, got sideways, and embedded rocks in the inside of the turn caught the front tire and ba-dunk-a-dunk, I was upside down. I had to push on the "roof" to take the tension off to undo my seatbelt. Then I just opened the door and rolled out. I think I scratched my finger rolling out on the ground but otherwise had zero injuries. The vehicle wasn't even that badly damaged. I think I paid a guy $500 for quicky patch job, new rear window, etc... Thankfully, there wasn't that much damage and the people coming up had plenty of time to stop. They threw a chain over me and rolled me, ba-dunk-a-dunk, back on 4 wheels and I drove home.
However, that's not the nature of wheeling we've been talking about here.
I just know that everybody thinks differently. I'm a competent motorcycle rider but my dad cannot do anything on a bike until after you explain the physics to him, and he's still never confident. He will never have that "seat of the pants" feel that good riders have. It's just not his nature. We had similar issues with ski jumping years ago. His brain/body just sort of prevented him from jumping even when he tried. Everyone is different. We all have different strengths and weaknesses.
I understand advising people not to rely on an inclinometer to achieve safety. However, use of an inclinometer can just as easily lead to a person being more safe. Not every event is the be all end all. Most events are educational. Not everybody has learned everything they are going to learn in life. Some people need more of the physics and math to be able to understand something like skiing, bike riding, or wheeling. Some people just never have the intuitive feeling for all the (important) variables. Some people are gifted and can synthesize more variables, better, and faster than anyone else in the world. They tend to have a lot of trophies from whatever it is they are good at. And, by the way, all those intuitions and variable are things that exist in reality as measurable aspects of physics. Some peoples' brains do a great job of synthesizing those aspects without even having the science training or vocabulary to explain it all in a scientific way. And some people can understand all the science of it and just are not able to do it.
It's complicated, but the good news is it isn't over. People are wheeling and learning every day and this kind of thread is great if it helps people do that better and safer. This thread has already helped me to focus on certain things I just hadn't been considering. I'm not looking to push my Cruiser to the 99.9% mark. But I would also hate to find out I thought I was but actually was only at, say, 75%.
Again, I appreciate all the positive input and hope it continues. Yes, pics of successful and unsuccessful steep driving would be great.
So, I asked the general question knowing that I would get a variety of different answers. The thing I like about this is that many people have offered good concrete advice about things to consider which hadn't occurred to me.
I have rolled (and jumped), BTW. Though that was a stock 1986 4Runner at 30 mph on a mountain dirt road. Came around a turn too fast, people were coming up the other direction, I braked, fish tailed, got sideways, and embedded rocks in the inside of the turn caught the front tire and ba-dunk-a-dunk, I was upside down. I had to push on the "roof" to take the tension off to undo my seatbelt. Then I just opened the door and rolled out. I think I scratched my finger rolling out on the ground but otherwise had zero injuries. The vehicle wasn't even that badly damaged. I think I paid a guy $500 for quicky patch job, new rear window, etc... Thankfully, there wasn't that much damage and the people coming up had plenty of time to stop. They threw a chain over me and rolled me, ba-dunk-a-dunk, back on 4 wheels and I drove home.
However, that's not the nature of wheeling we've been talking about here.
I just know that everybody thinks differently. I'm a competent motorcycle rider but my dad cannot do anything on a bike until after you explain the physics to him, and he's still never confident. He will never have that "seat of the pants" feel that good riders have. It's just not his nature. We had similar issues with ski jumping years ago. His brain/body just sort of prevented him from jumping even when he tried. Everyone is different. We all have different strengths and weaknesses.
I understand advising people not to rely on an inclinometer to achieve safety. However, use of an inclinometer can just as easily lead to a person being more safe. Not every event is the be all end all. Most events are educational. Not everybody has learned everything they are going to learn in life. Some people need more of the physics and math to be able to understand something like skiing, bike riding, or wheeling. Some people just never have the intuitive feeling for all the (important) variables. Some people are gifted and can synthesize more variables, better, and faster than anyone else in the world. They tend to have a lot of trophies from whatever it is they are good at. And, by the way, all those intuitions and variable are things that exist in reality as measurable aspects of physics. Some peoples' brains do a great job of synthesizing those aspects without even having the science training or vocabulary to explain it all in a scientific way. And some people can understand all the science of it and just are not able to do it.
It's complicated, but the good news is it isn't over. People are wheeling and learning every day and this kind of thread is great if it helps people do that better and safer. This thread has already helped me to focus on certain things I just hadn't been considering. I'm not looking to push my Cruiser to the 99.9% mark. But I would also hate to find out I thought I was but actually was only at, say, 75%.
Again, I appreciate all the positive input and hope it continues. Yes, pics of successful and unsuccessful steep driving would be great.
...and over 10,000 other variables.
Having rolled more than 50 times, there is ZERO chance that a gauge has any usefulness over your own instincts. Experience is 100% in this situation, nothing else. 99.999% of offroaders are uncomfortable far before there is much danger.
And, until you've rolled, you have ZERO idea where that point is.
I suggest you don't roll
To add to this, in my one roll I had zero inkling that there was even a possibility. If it's any help, most of my close calls have happened while moving not while crawling at steep angles. Momentum can be a bitch.
- Thread starter
- #39
Yep. I also had a lot of fun jumping my 1985 4Runner which had a 2" desert racing suspension. Oh, so much fun! Never rolled that one.
Nope...you would be smart enough to back out prior to the roll...your own 'fear point' will kick in far before it happens...I have (knowingly) driven past that point a number of times...sometimes I win, sometimes I lose...with my FJ40, it was an accepted risk. It's also the only rig I've rolled. My 80 has never flopped/rolled, nor have I dumped either of my SxS's.
While on Trail Teams, I put an FJC on 2 wheels more than once...worst was with 4 kids riding passenger...I fortunately drove clear. Experience saved a few butts on that one.
Largely, you trust your spotter(s)...and it's easy to add a safety line...I've put a 20' strap through the windows/over the roof of a few rigs to 'pendulum' them thru a difficult obstacle.
I've had one roll of those 50+ that was unexpected. It was by far the worst of them all. 1-1/2 barrel roll into a river, passenger side of the rig under 36" of water...including my then-wife. Oddly, despite trying to kill her then, we are still friends
