It's also important to note: an event isn't properly christened until Woody rolls something.
Maximum incline angle before rollover danger?
- Thread starter Black Rhino 13
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I've come close to rolling off road twice. Both times were in mini pickups, both times I had spotters and both were similar to where an inclinometer would not have been a factor. Sometimes even at crawling speeds a spotter will miss something and that's what happened, both times. I was able to steer out of it, but was up on 2 wheels for a few moments.
What I'm getting at is that, for me, my reflexes were to use the controls (IE: steering wheel, brakes, clutch, etc.....), not look at some instrument or indicator. And I think that's how we're all wired. A visual indicator is fine thing ahead of time, but when the stuff hits the fan, you're going to want to be doing something to prevent tipping. So in essence, all the inclinometer is - is decoration.
What I'm getting at is that, for me, my reflexes were to use the controls (IE: steering wheel, brakes, clutch, etc.....), not look at some instrument or indicator. And I think that's how we're all wired. A visual indicator is fine thing ahead of time, but when the stuff hits the fan, you're going to want to be doing something to prevent tipping. So in essence, all the inclinometer is - is decoration.
- Thread starter
- #43
I'm starting to think there are two threads going on here simultaneously.
There seem to be people who are thinking about a type of wheeling where the obstacles and angles bring up the possibility of rolling or flipping very easily and often. That's a general type situation where you can't just turn your brain of and rely on a gauge on the dash.
I'm starting to understand that some of the folks here are imagining that kind of scenario and they're replying to that.
Then there are people, like me, who are just out driving around off-road and are not likely to encounter flipping or rolling from what they normally do. They are just out to enjoy nature, get somewhere, have a little fun, put their 4x4 to a little use, etc... These people are the ones who do not expect to be anywhere near flipping or rolling. But, they do like to go off-road and do like to have fun, learn, improve, etc... I think that for this crowd, an inclinometer could be fun, informative, a talking point, something to provide a point of reference. It could be an accelerator in their learning curve, even if it isn't as valuable at the end of that curve. I see the theoretical pitfalls in this case, but I would count on this second group of people not likely or easily flipping or rolling due to over-emphasizing the value of an inclinometer. I would allow the pucker-factor to do its job in those cases.
I started this thread after driving up a 25-30 degree slope which was pretty steep to me. Far steeper than any paved road would be. And I was just curious what kind of angles the old LC could handle. Yes yes, variables are a part of that.
There seem to be people who are thinking about a type of wheeling where the obstacles and angles bring up the possibility of rolling or flipping very easily and often. That's a general type situation where you can't just turn your brain of and rely on a gauge on the dash.
I'm starting to understand that some of the folks here are imagining that kind of scenario and they're replying to that.
Then there are people, like me, who are just out driving around off-road and are not likely to encounter flipping or rolling from what they normally do. They are just out to enjoy nature, get somewhere, have a little fun, put their 4x4 to a little use, etc... These people are the ones who do not expect to be anywhere near flipping or rolling. But, they do like to go off-road and do like to have fun, learn, improve, etc... I think that for this crowd, an inclinometer could be fun, informative, a talking point, something to provide a point of reference. It could be an accelerator in their learning curve, even if it isn't as valuable at the end of that curve. I see the theoretical pitfalls in this case, but I would count on this second group of people not likely or easily flipping or rolling due to over-emphasizing the value of an inclinometer. I would allow the pucker-factor to do its job in those cases.
I started this thread after driving up a 25-30 degree slope which was pretty steep to me. Far steeper than any paved road would be. And I was just curious what kind of angles the old LC could handle. Yes yes, variables are a part of that.
An inclinometer is only accurate when you are not moving. So, they are more applicable when crawling at steep angles. Even then they're pretty dubious. When you're just cruising around, it's bouncing around and no help.
Like I said, they're fun toys, get one and play with it. Just don't expect it to give you any valuable feedback. I had the idiot cluster on my 4runner, the altimeter was a cool tool, learned real quickly, the inclinometer was pretty pointless.
BTW, climbing or descending at 25-30 is no biggie. Getting sideways at that angle should have your "oh s***" meter humming.
Most good compasses have a clinometer on them if you are that curious about the angle of a slope BEFORE you travel over/across it. I flopped my jeep once (in snow - does that count?) and have had two near misses (one in the 80). All three events were unexpected and a gauge definitely would not have helped.
My biggest pet peeve with the 80 on steep slopes is the monstrous seat and slippery leather. Replacing my seat with something that has more bolster and cloth is high on my list of priorities. Other than freeway driving, the time I really appreciate an automatic transmission is when things get steep/tippy.
Some lessons I learned from rolling over:
- I try to secure my gear better now.
- When we came to a stop, I unbuckled my seatbelt and immediately fell onto the passenger window with my head and shoulder. With my adrenaline pumping, I wasn’t thinking and I could have really hurt myself.
- Decisive application of throttle to get myself pointed in the right direction would have prevented my roll. It saved me in both future misses.
My biggest pet peeve with the 80 on steep slopes is the monstrous seat and slippery leather. Replacing my seat with something that has more bolster and cloth is high on my list of priorities. Other than freeway driving, the time I really appreciate an automatic transmission is when things get steep/tippy.
Some lessons I learned from rolling over:
- I try to secure my gear better now.
- When we came to a stop, I unbuckled my seatbelt and immediately fell onto the passenger window with my head and shoulder. With my adrenaline pumping, I wasn’t thinking and I could have really hurt myself.
- Decisive application of throttle to get myself pointed in the right direction would have prevented my roll. It saved me in both future misses.
Simple question:
If inclinometers are of little to no value...then why did our coveted Toyota company make them standard on many of their automobiles?
I'm sure the statement will be made...well the're not on any of the new setups at least here stateside, but we here in American don't "need" that gear.
Just food for thought.
~Daniel
Sent from deep in the mountains of Honduras using only sticks and rocks.
If inclinometers are of little to no value...then why did our coveted Toyota company make them standard on many of their automobiles?
I'm sure the statement will be made...well the're not on any of the new setups at least here stateside, but we here in American don't "need" that gear.
Just food for thought.
~Daniel
Sent from deep in the mountains of Honduras using only sticks and rocks.
simple answer- MARKETING
skintunes said:
Makes sense... As a serious question and (not stupid) IMO: I'm building our company expedition rig which will be used not for rock crawly, but to do expeditions in the mountains of Honduras...and before the question is asked the only "off-road" experience I have is limited to the handfuls of times I've been in Central America with a rented or borrowed truck and driven around in various situations. SO on to the question: Does an inclinometer have a place in my rig (whether it be for the driver or the tourists)? Thanks to all!
~Daniel
So you have an idea of the terrain...this is on our 12 acres.
(about 3000 elevation at that point)
Just for fun... "company staff, friends and family"
Sent from deep in the mountains of Honduras using only sticks and rocks.
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OK, before I get flamed, I am not an experienced off-roader, rock climber, etc.But, I've driven a lot of stuff, motorbikes, cars, trucks, HMMWVs, helicopters, cessnas, F15, C130s, and more, and they all have instruments. An inclinometer is just that. No one instrument tells you everything you need to know, and experience is what allows you to determine that things are starting to head south before they get to a point of no return.A good scan, using all of the information available, as in visual, proprioceptive and instrumental is how we give ourselves they greatest chance of success in any situation.In answer to the original question, there is no answer. I have seen plenty of rollover threads on flat highways, difference being 70 miles an hour and something unusual happened. Lot of physics built into the question and would be very vehicle specific based on all of the modifications done to these vehicles.But, would the instrument help, I believe so, lots of farm tractors out there with inclinometers, and how are they used....operator doesn't stare at it, but as he is getting into steeper terrain, may shoot a quick glance (scanning) and with a little experience, knows he's reaching his limits, whether actual rollover angle or just his comfort level. My .02$
^^^ That pretty much what I was thinking. Thx!
~Daniel
Sent from deep in the mountains of Honduras using only sticks and rocks.
~Daniel
Sent from deep in the mountains of Honduras using only sticks and rocks.
Your point about them being a tool is valid. My experience with them says they're a fairly useless tool. Ignoring the whole "angle is only part of the equation" argument, the make up of these tools compromises their effectiveness. They function like a compass, with a free floating indicator. When moving, the needle will fluctuate all over, giving you no feedback. If you stop and let the needle settle, you will get a reading.
Lets face it, if we all had the foresight to stop when were about to get in to trouble to check a silly gauge, we would likely avert danger with or without the gauge.
Like I said before, they can be fun toys, they're cheap and a 5 year old can operate one
. Everyone who wants one should try it out. But I do caution everyone against considering it a safety device. When wheeling, a misdirected sense of safety can lead to overconfidence and overconfidence often ends badly.
PS: If anyone finds an inclinometer that stays steady and readable in a moving rig, I'd love to see it.
No flame intended, here. Your apparent credentials are impressive. Appears you've operated quite a variety of equipment. However, tractors are not on your list. You've seen inclinometers on them. Are you sure of their purpose? They might be for judging the effective range of the equipment that the tractor is towing or for determining if certain terrain is worth planting or not. Could be just for operator's peace of mind, also. To be sure, I would not want to be on a tractor if it tumbled over. Very heavy and not much protection.
But, I think we're over-cooking the grits. The OP obviously thinks an inclinometer would work in his rig for his purposes. Fine! Some of us have voiced why we don't use or rely on one. That's fine, too. I think this thread has served its purpose.
- Thread starter
- #55
Aside from picking up a few pointers from this thread, the OP has decided an inclinometer can be an amusing toy during the learning curve. That learning curve is not only for the driver. It involves and benefits passengers too. 
The situation the OP will be using an inclinometer in is just one vehicle alone out in the mountains with a wife and two little daughters in the back seat. It's a family event, not a competitive event. It's fun and learning and exploring. The Toyota Land Cruiser, to my understanding, was designed and built as an "expedition vehicle". If the OP wanted something competitive, he'd save up $50K, $100K, or whatever to buy a competition rig of some sort.
If an inclinometer helps someone get better at attempting and negotiating more challenging slopes and obstacles, then great. If someone gets all the way to the point of tipping, and stares at an inclinometer, and then rolls over...good thing they're in a Land Cruiser.
I'm in agreement with Tom at this point.
The situation the OP will be using an inclinometer in is just one vehicle alone out in the mountains with a wife and two little daughters in the back seat. It's a family event, not a competitive event. It's fun and learning and exploring. The Toyota Land Cruiser, to my understanding, was designed and built as an "expedition vehicle". If the OP wanted something competitive, he'd save up $50K, $100K, or whatever to buy a competition rig of some sort.If an inclinometer helps someone get better at attempting and negotiating more challenging slopes and obstacles, then great. If someone gets all the way to the point of tipping, and stares at an inclinometer, and then rolls over...good thing they're in a Land Cruiser.
I'm in agreement with Tom at this point.
I think the comment about this being two different threads is apt. There are those who push things to the limit and trust nothing but their own senses, unaided by anything they consider distracting. They're the 99%ers, out there on the [might be bleeding] edge and don't mind it one bit.
Then there's Black Rhino 13 and the others, who value knowing where 75% to 80% of all you can grab is what they want to reliably establish. It's more of a red zone they want to delineate in order to avoid that edge, rather than riding it to wherever it might go.
And you can't disregard Woody's comment that the best thing to do is to not roll, which people here have had varying degrees of luck with.
Frankly, I thought the inclinometer (good ol' Lev-O-Gage) I installed in the FJ55 was going to tell me more than it did, which as many of the 99%ers point out is not so much.
But you do learn and depending on your goal, I'm with BR13 and Copan guy, etc, it's a good tool to learn with, just don't count on it as a "safety device" as everyone agrees. The captain of the ship is still the one whose ultimate responsibility is to the safety of his passengers, crew, and cargo.
So that's why I haven't had a Lev-O-Gage in a couple of decades. haven't felt the need going from a FJ55 to Trooper II to Rodeo, i.e. progressively closer to terra firma (note I did not say less likely to roll, as I did get the Trooper up on two wheels in a fit of stupidity on the road once).
But the 80 is a big beast. I'm comfortable with it in the little off-roading done so far. But I gotta be honest, I'll feel better about learning how to push her a little with some feedback that doesn't depend solely on my senses. Does that mean I'm relying on that to make my driving decisions? No. It's just something to gauge my own reaction. And since I'm a 75%er as old and creaky as I am, I can call it quits sooner if I'm persuaded that I'm starting to plumb the red zone.
Speaking of rolling, I've read many things that indicate people are doing it at road or trail speed and noting an inclinometer is not much help there. Admittedly, it's pointless to even pay attention to one unless you are at crawl speed, because if it's really that bad, why are you trying to use speed in preference to finesse in such a situation anyway?
But maybe I'm just a wimp about this stuff anymore??
Or maybe I've always been a wimp, since I've fit a lot of 'wheeling into four decades or so of doing it and so far managed to avoid the dreaded side flop.
Knock on wood...
Then there's Black Rhino 13 and the others, who value knowing where 75% to 80% of all you can grab is what they want to reliably establish. It's more of a red zone they want to delineate in order to avoid that edge, rather than riding it to wherever it might go.
And you can't disregard Woody's comment that the best thing to do is to not roll, which people here have had varying degrees of luck with.
Frankly, I thought the inclinometer (good ol' Lev-O-Gage) I installed in the FJ55 was going to tell me more than it did, which as many of the 99%ers point out is not so much.
But you do learn and depending on your goal, I'm with BR13 and Copan guy, etc, it's a good tool to learn with, just don't count on it as a "safety device" as everyone agrees. The captain of the ship is still the one whose ultimate responsibility is to the safety of his passengers, crew, and cargo.
So that's why I haven't had a Lev-O-Gage in a couple of decades. haven't felt the need going from a FJ55 to Trooper II to Rodeo, i.e. progressively closer to terra firma (note I did not say less likely to roll, as I did get the Trooper up on two wheels in a fit of stupidity on the road once).
But the 80 is a big beast. I'm comfortable with it in the little off-roading done so far. But I gotta be honest, I'll feel better about learning how to push her a little with some feedback that doesn't depend solely on my senses. Does that mean I'm relying on that to make my driving decisions? No. It's just something to gauge my own reaction. And since I'm a 75%er as old and creaky as I am, I can call it quits sooner if I'm persuaded that I'm starting to plumb the red zone.
Speaking of rolling, I've read many things that indicate people are doing it at road or trail speed and noting an inclinometer is not much help there. Admittedly, it's pointless to even pay attention to one unless you are at crawl speed, because if it's really that bad, why are you trying to use speed in preference to finesse in such a situation anyway?
But maybe I'm just a wimp about this stuff anymore??
Or maybe I've always been a wimp, since I've fit a lot of 'wheeling into four decades or so of doing it and so far managed to avoid the dreaded side flop.
Knock on wood...
- Thread starter
- #57
^^^
Thanks for putting it so well Mike.
Yes, last Saturday evening when my kids said "let's go off-roading" it was mostly because they didn't want to go home yet. And they did not mean "Daddy, lets go see how close we can get to flipping the cruiser without actually doing it". Or: "Daddy, see if you can make my sister pee in her pants", "Daddy, see if you can make mommy cry", etc...
As we turned off the dirt road onto the side of a mountain, through a ditch we couldn't have crossed a year ago with stock suspension, my 7 year old pointed out: "You sure don't see minivans doing this."
We have a Land Cruiser with 2.5" suspension, 33" mud tires, lockers, and we use them all. We go places in our vehicle that we could not go if it was stock. I know because we were getting stuck, stock, and that's why we did the mods.
On the other hand, just because we have a modded FZJ80 doesn't mean we are trying to explore 100% of its capability in every sense of the word. We just like to get out and go places where minivans, as well as many more capable off road vehicles, don't and can't go. Part of it is about leaving the "crowds" behind, and part of it is having 4 and 7 year old girls who aren't up for 8 mile hikes with backpacks. This may offend some people's sensibilities, but in some ways I do explain our vehicle as a sort of super-minivan for us.
I think I won't be buying the dash mounted "distraction box". I will continue to pull out the little ski slope inclinometer and have the Frau use it on the arm rest whenever things get steep. You know for fun and trivia purposes. By now you all know that I consider 25 degrees pretty steep. Maybe some day we'll drive up something that's 45 degrees. As far as I can tell from comments on this thread, with slow speed and a smooth, tractive surface, the LC can safely be driven uphill at a 45 degree angle.
But without the inclinometer how could we tell the story with credibility?
Thanks for putting it so well Mike.
Yes, last Saturday evening when my kids said "let's go off-roading" it was mostly because they didn't want to go home yet. And they did not mean "Daddy, lets go see how close we can get to flipping the cruiser without actually doing it". Or: "Daddy, see if you can make my sister pee in her pants", "Daddy, see if you can make mommy cry", etc...
As we turned off the dirt road onto the side of a mountain, through a ditch we couldn't have crossed a year ago with stock suspension, my 7 year old pointed out: "You sure don't see minivans doing this."
We have a Land Cruiser with 2.5" suspension, 33" mud tires, lockers, and we use them all. We go places in our vehicle that we could not go if it was stock. I know because we were getting stuck, stock, and that's why we did the mods.
On the other hand, just because we have a modded FZJ80 doesn't mean we are trying to explore 100% of its capability in every sense of the word. We just like to get out and go places where minivans, as well as many more capable off road vehicles, don't and can't go. Part of it is about leaving the "crowds" behind, and part of it is having 4 and 7 year old girls who aren't up for 8 mile hikes with backpacks. This may offend some people's sensibilities, but in some ways I do explain our vehicle as a sort of super-minivan for us.
I think I won't be buying the dash mounted "distraction box". I will continue to pull out the little ski slope inclinometer and have the Frau use it on the arm rest whenever things get steep. You know for fun and trivia purposes.
By now you all know that I consider 25 degrees pretty steep. Maybe some day we'll drive up something that's 45 degrees. As far as I can tell from comments on this thread, with slow speed and a smooth, tractive surface, the LC can safely be driven uphill at a 45 degree angle.But without the inclinometer how could we tell the story with credibility?
25% front to back or side to side, mach nichts. Side to side at 25% and I'm being real careful based on almost three decade old memory, though. In fact, I ask myself if I really need to go there when it looks like things are going to exceed 25% side to side.
45% up or down a slope is something I think is within the capabilities of the 80 (IIRC, something like that). The real issue with up and down slope is you need to remain pointed that way. You don't want loose stuff under the wheels, skidding due to braking, or a stall. All those can lead to sideways and it's getting sideways that's the problem, because....
I wouldn't go anywhere near 45% side to side. That's past trouble, right into big trouble territory, "How the heck long is this hill?," bounce, bounce, "Aiyeee!"
That's a summary of another way to look at this thread, because side to side is way iffier than up or downslope. Mixing the two, like beer and wine, is where you can find yourself in sudden trouble. That's one way I evaluate driving lines and situations offroad. One or the other, it's usually pretty clear what you're dealing with. Once you multiply them by each other, look out
45% up or down a slope is something I think is within the capabilities of the 80 (IIRC, something like that). The real issue with up and down slope is you need to remain pointed that way. You don't want loose stuff under the wheels, skidding due to braking, or a stall. All those can lead to sideways and it's getting sideways that's the problem, because....
I wouldn't go anywhere near 45% side to side. That's past trouble, right into big trouble territory, "How the heck long is this hill?," bounce, bounce, "Aiyeee!"
That's a summary of another way to look at this thread, because side to side is way iffier than up or downslope. Mixing the two, like beer and wine, is where you can find yourself in sudden trouble. That's one way I evaluate driving lines and situations offroad. One or the other, it's usually pretty clear what you're dealing with. Once you multiply them by each other, look out
^^^
Thanks for putting it so well Mike.
Yes, last Saturday evening when my kids said "let's go off-roading" it was mostly because they didn't want to go home yet. And they did not mean "Daddy, lets go see how close we can get to flipping the cruiser without actually doing it". Or: "Daddy, see if you can make my sister pee in her pants", "Daddy, see if you can make mommy cry", etc...
As we turned off the dirt road onto the side of a mountain, through a ditch we couldn't have crossed a year ago with stock suspension, my 7 year old pointed out: "You sure don't see minivans doing this."
We have a Land Cruiser with 2.5" suspension, 33" mud tires, lockers, and we use them all. We go places in our vehicle that we could not go if it was stock. I know because we were getting stuck, stock, and that's why we did the mods.
On the other hand, just because we have a modded FZJ80 doesn't mean we are trying to explore 100% of its capability in every sense of the word. We just like to get out and go places where minivans, as well as many more capable off road vehicles, don't and can't go. Part of it is about leaving the "crowds" behind, and part of it is having 4 and 7 year old girls who aren't up for 8 mile hikes with backpacks. This may offend some people's sensibilities, but in some ways I do explain our vehicle as a sort of super-minivan for us.
I think I won't be buying the dash mounted "distraction box". I will continue to pull out the little ski slope inclinometer and have the Frau use it on the arm rest whenever things get steep. You know for fun and trivia purposes.
But without the inclinometer how could we tell the story with credibility?
45 up or down is
. I wouldn't try it without a lot of experience and an excellent surface, like Moab slickrock.An inclinometer isn't going to tell you the angle unless you stop on the hill. If you do, you have bigger balls and less brains than I.
Many of the obstacles around Moab have been measured. It's usually not to hard to get a decent estimate if you compare the slope to the vertical or horizontal plane.This all assumes that you really care. 30 degrees is steep, anything more is fawking steep.
That's close enough for me.
There is a SUPER steep road going up the mountain in Copán Ruinas (in town) and no one there hardly drives up it because...well it's STEEP (my wife and I think it was about 45% or greater)! Anyway we went up it and it was scary...the funny thing is there's houses on both sides of the street. I'll be down in Nov. and I'm gonna take my level-o-guage and check it. Just thought some people might find this interesting. 
~Daniel
Sent from deep in the mountains of Honduras using only sticks and rocks.
~Daniel
Sent from deep in the mountains of Honduras using only sticks and rocks.
