LX is eating front tires. Another stupid Alignment Thread

[radman]

I've been avoiding this post. Partly because I have so much going on, partly because I'm in denial, and partly because there's a lot of information. I'm going to dump some info and possibly come back to clean it up. I've had a few scattered posts about this in other threads, but I'm hoping to consolidate everything and finally get this sorted out.


The insides of my front tires are wearing faster than the outside (think rice burners with sideways tires). All this may be the fault of my KO2s and their "soft rubber", but that would be too easy.

Info dump:
- I had a reputable Toyota 4x4 shop perform alignment after my sensor + height offset lift.
- at the time, it tracked straight, but I did experience new symptom of "more feedback in the steering wheel" or as another member spend ~4k trying to fix his "squirrely" feelings.
- this only really happens over bumpy roads or speed bumps in parking lots.
- @TeCKis300 noticed that I never got "Toed-in", but others mentioned that my Caster might be negative as well.
- today, she pulls hard to the right.
- when I asked the shop, their response was "we maximize caster on all out alignments while still maintaining proper Camber numbers"
- they also confirmed that the red caster numbers are "not negative as they would show a negative sign in front of the number"

- AHC is working perfectly.
- All corners are within ~.25" when parked on semi level surface.

- AHC lowers .78" when you go over 62mph. Here's a cool video showing the squat during a dino test (courtesy of @boringdriver):

Other considerations:
- Maybe the alignment shop didn't screw up. You might think I jacked the specs while wheeling and should have gotten re-aligned a lot sooner - yes, i know - it's been 2.5 years, but only about 12k miles. The rears got rotated at 5k miles (before last year's LCDC trip), so something was going on prior to anything that could have thrown the specs out of whack. What you see in this pic is the current rear tires that spend 5k miles up front:

The questions:
1) Obviously these tires are toast. I could probably get away with purchasing 2 new ones for the front, but they've been backordered for nearly a year (which is another reason i've just been avoiding dealing with all this). Should I try to get the alignment sorted out before or after buying new tires?

2) Could the LX squat explain most of this? If so, why aren't more of you guys having this issue...

3) I recall there being different specs for LC vs LX alignment, and I know some shops just aim to get things "in spec" and call it a day. Other than being Toed-in, are there any other things to ask for?

4) I've never deep-dived into alignment specs, and it's too late to push back on the shop, but did they hose me from the beginning with the zero toe and weird caster numbers?

5) Adding a tire question here: I never got the opportunity to cycle the spare into rotation, so that's an unused tire wanting me to stay with the current size. If i drop down to 295/70/18, I'll have to buy 5 new tires. Or keep my 305 spare and get 4 new 35/12.5/18 K02s (apparently those aren't backordered.) The size difference (34.8 vs 35) should be small enough to not screw with the TC if i have to use it. I mean, the TC has been trying to deal with 35s in the back and 34s in the front with the amount of wear that i have....
Being in the 35 club has been fun, but seriously considering going with a 295 Ridge Grappler.

I think that's all for now. Thanks!

 

[32cls6speedmt]

We need @Taco2Cruiser advice on this one.

 

[TLC2013]

Just by looking at the alignment numbers , I would only be concerned with the caster being about 1 degree too low. But that shouldn’t cause the irregular tire wear. Camber and toe being out of sorts will cause these wear issues. However your alignments numbers don’t point to them being the culprit at less then .5 degrees of positive camber and basically neutral toe. Any chance your toe or camber could have dramatically changed since that alignment ?
I have experienced drastic toe shifts after some moderate to heavy wheeling, enough to cause tire wear. Usually it is evident when driving on the hwy, with a noticeable pull to one side but that has not always been the case in my experience.
In addition to rechecking the alignment I’d Start to investigate suspension components such as ball joints for wear.

I do recall reading here that camber does change going from low to high mode, and having the sensor lift” it would be another thing to consider. This is where the @TeCKis300 and @Taco2Cruiser …etc with their wealth on knowledge should be able to get you lined up.

 

[radman]

The sensor lift might limit some of my alignment numbers since I don’t have adjustable control arms; however, every aspect of AHC is fully functional. The rig simply sits higher in the normal driving position (all 3 height levels actually), and it cycles/dampens as it normally would. Every height is just 1.5” higher than stock.

Yes, it’s very possible that I threw off specs somewhere along the line, but I have 5k miles on the rear that was from normal driving (no wheeling).

 

[04UZJ100]

FWIW, I have noticed inside tread wear on stock Michelins on my stock 14 LX. I began being more disciplined with rotations which has helped.

Bottom line, I think it is the nature of the suspension geometry changing at speed which visually appear exaggerated in larger tires with larger lugs.

If you’re looking for hardware, no lifted IFS Toyota has ever driven well without caster correcting control arms. My 4Runner was all over the place and had horrible steering wheel “fidgety” feedback until I installed Total Chasos UCAs. I highly recommend them based on your lift and use cases.

 

[grinchy]

I'd think you could run a 305/70r18 as spare for 295/70r18 other four. That is only 7mm height diff.

I had a rear drive BMW (bought it with a salvage title) that burned all the tires I put on the rear with this same wear pattern. It had no rear adjustments available, the frame was crooked probably from crappy repair.

More of a hoot in corners, very easy to get it to slide.

I just took off the tires half way thru their wear, and had them remounted with the good rubber in. Usually worked out to get nearly full wear out of the tire, though I'm sure total mileage was down 20% of so.

It's a shame those two are fully bald, or you could just drop $80 and have them remounted out to in and run them another 15k.

 

[TeCKis300]

This one has me confused. The numbers don't reflect the degree of tire wear you're seeing.

Generally, caster doesn't effect tire wear to any degree an it's a feel thing. Agree with @TLC2013 that you're about a degree short and this is probably most responsible for the squirrely feel.

Camber can cause wear but would be very minor here. Yyou actually have positive camber (top of the tires to lean out), and that would be outer tire wear, but this inner.

Leaving toe and this is where I'm confused. Toe is by far the biggest culprit, especially to this degree of wear you're seeing. But your toe measurement looks spot on. A 4x4 like ours wants almost no toe which is what you have.

In my mind, the toe is wrong. But why? Any chance you possibly knocked it out of alignment? Many have said they've anecdotally seen too little torque on the LCA bolts making it easy to knock toe out. Wild card in my mind is that you may be so heavily laden to the rear on trips, the front end actually noses up further, creating bad alignment on longer trips?

 

[Bomar]

I will say the KO2 has been a problem on 570s lifted or not for odd wear on clients trucks.

But our issue was always on outside wear and unbearable in less than 20k miles.

I don't get why yours are wearing that way.

 

[JohnJB]

Agree with Tek. Toe is the most likely culprit based on the picture.

I can’t find my old pictures at the moment but my first 200 had some insane tire wear issues from bad toe due to frozen tie rod ends. Roasted a set of Ridge Grapplers in 15k miles.

 

[radman]

I just took off the tires half way thru their wear, and had them remounted with the good rubber in.

I actually thought of that since there's no white lettering on the other side, but alas, never got around to that either.

@04UZJ100 comment is interesting and makes sense, as I've always wondered if this was an inherent issue with the squat but just exaggerated with my setup.

Any chance you possibly knocked it out of alignment? Many have said they've anecdotally seen too little torque on the LCA bolts making it easy to knock toe out. Wild card in my mind is that you may be so heavily laden to the rear on trips, the front end actually noses up further, creating bad alignment on longer trips?

great point on the cantilevering affect on the front during long trips - certainly a possibility.

Also a possibility that I threw things out of whack. My only arguments against this is the printout, which you explained, and the first 5k miles that were also affected.




I just got a quote for TotalChaos UCAs for $1100 + 5 hours of install time ($800). Does that seem reasonable?

 

[tbisaacs]

I actually thought of that since there's no white lettering on the other side, but alas, never got around to that either.

@04UZJ100 comment is interesting and makes sense, as I've always wondered if this was an inherent issue with the squat but just exaggerated with my setup.



great point on the cantilevering affect on the front during long trips - certainly a possibility.

Also a possibility that I threw things out of whack. My only arguments against this is the printout, which you explained, and the first 5k miles that were also affected.




I just got a quote for TotalChaos UCAs for $1100 + 5 hours of install time ($800). Does that seem reasonable?

I would not get TC UCAs or any uniball type. Get something with an OEM-style ball joint. Great explanation in part I and II of this guy's video

 

[Tex68w]

Having run KO2's on many vehicles and now for over 60K miles on two different 200's (LX and LC) I don't think you can blame the tires as I haven't seen anything like that. The adjustable suspension could be the culprit but agree with trying adjustable UCA's.

 

[RyanR]

Interested to hear what the issue is if you solve this. I intentionally run high camber so the truck isn't so squirrelly in high mode and I look a bit "stanced" once the truck does its squat at highway speed. Even that has not caused any uneven wear on my previous 08 or my current 2013. I did not sensor lift either of them however. My guess is your alignment is now probably a ways off from where it was 2 year ago when you had it aligned. I get my truck aligned annually. I don't drive many miles... maybe 8-10k a year but I do thrash it pretty hard and my alignment has always moved quite a bit in the span of a year.

 

[linuxgod]

I think @Taco2Cruiser has said before the only thing that really wears tires is toe being out, so since your original toe is way off if you drove for 10k miles like that, yeah that's probably your issue. I don't think it's the tires, it is (or was) the alignment (or lack of it). Camber was extremely positive but that would cause wear on the outer edges of the tires, not the inner edges.

Lots of caster will cause the tires to lean more when turning, which will wear the edges more than the middle. But it should wear the edges evenly (and not really that noticeable unless you're racing in circles on a nascar track). But I get your point and agree it's unlikely the cause here.

(btw this alignment sheet does show caster is low (~1.5 deg) but it is still positive, the "-" just means "below spec".)

The tire wear pattern does look to me like camber that's far too negative, but the alignment spec says camber is positive, which should wear the outer edges. That wear pattern is like if you're being aligned with AHC neutral (or AHC high) and then driving in AHC low everywhere. slammed, yo.

Anyway I think your toe being out is the cause. Failing that I'd look for a bad balljoint or tie rod, particularly if the camber and toe values change again without you wheelin' your rig (or abusing it on city potholed streets).

 

[radman]

Well, I pulled the trigger on a new set of Mickey Thompson Baja Boss ATs.
I’m about to roll into the Lexus dealer for an alignment.
I’m sure as hell not going back to the last guy, and another shop is booked out (and 30 min dive away as opposed to 5 mins).

Im going to ask for “toe-in” and anything else?

 

[linuxgod]

You want caster around 3 degrees, camber should be around 0.5 degrees, and toe in should be very slight maybe 1/16th". You typically want a couple 1/10ths of a degree more caster on the passenger's side (to account for road crown) if possible. Some shops will set up very slightly more camber on the passenger's side so that if you let go of the wheel eventually you'll drive off the shoulder instead of driving into oncoming traffic - again maybe 0.1 or 0.2 deg difference. Any decent alignment should already do this... even if they're in the "make it green" camp cross-caster and cross-camber are well known, and the other values are basically center of the green range.

 

[radman]

I specifically asked for .14 toe in, and this is what they gave me

Also seems odd that nothing else was adjusted. I’m back in here waiting for the tech to comment.

 

[TeCKis300]

I specifically asked for .14 toe in, and this is what they gave me

Also seems odd that nothing else was adjusted. I’m back in here waiting for the tech to comment.

View attachment 3011064

I'm going against the grain and suggest little to no toe-in. This platform doesn't really need any. So maybe serendipitously, you landed on what you need.

Reason is with a 4WD car, as power is applied to the front wheels, it'll naturally pull the tire forward, creating the toe-in.

You're a little low on caster which is to be expected given the lift height and tall tires. If on center stability is good enough for you, you're good to go.

 

[TLC2013]

I specifically asked for .14 toe in, and this is what they gave me

Also seems odd that nothing else was adjusted. I’m back in here waiting for the tech to comment.

View attachment 3011064

Glad to see you were able to get the alignment sorted out and the toe corrected. I have run similar alignment specs and your rig should drive well with the tire wear issue eliminated.

In the past my LC has had between 2.7-3.7 degrees of positive caster and I only noticed a more firm steering feel with higher caster numbers when above 3 degrees. Truck drove just fine in the range so I imagine you will have a similar experience.

What size tires did you go with ? Looking forward to hearing how they compare to the K02s.

 

[thabruiser]

Late to the party, but if you look at the picture of the tire wear pattern, you can see what appears to be a feathering pattern (where the dirt is not wiped off some parts of the abnormally-worn inside edge). This is commonly (in my experience) caused by too much toe one way or the other. By the looks of the alignment sheet, -.40* per side is pretty bad. The tires are basically being pushed straight down the road with both of the tires turned away from each other, dragging them on the inside edge.

Normally, camber will wear the inside or outside edge smooth. Feathering is a toe issue.