Looking for a repeat cycle timer, 120vac plug in for hot water recirc pump (1 Viewer)

[alia176]

Hiya fellas,

My house has a Touch Plate (24vdc system switching 120vac) automation system from the '80s and it works brilliantly. I have a hot water recirc pump that we can turn on remotely from the master bathroom and the kitchen. My daughter keeps forgetting to turn it off after her shower so it runs for hours on end. I'm looking for a repeat cycle off delay timer and this is how it needs to function:

Current setup:
user turns on the remote push button (PB) switch in the kitchen. Indicator light turns on.
basement 120vac outlet turns on and the pump runs.
user turns off remote PB and the pump stops. Indicator light turns off.

Future setup:
user turns on the remote push button switch in the kitchen. Indicator light turns on in the kitchen
basement 120vac outlet turns on and the 30 min (selectable by me with dip switches/knob/etc) time delay countdown timer starts.
timer reaches zero and the pump stops but the indicator light is still on.
user has to hit the PB again, turn lights off, then hit the PB again to re-activate the timer in the basement.

There will be some re-training required so that we don't always assume the pump is running because the indicat/or light is on. A simple push of the PB will reset everything. There's also a slight hum that you can make out through out the house when the pump runs.

At this time, I have no interest in breaking into the Touch Plate latching relay circuit to figure out how to turn off the indicator light in the kitchen/master bathroom.

I found something that may work but figure on asking y'all to see if there's something else I should be looking at.

link

 

[D'Animal]

We have a simple timer on ours.
I think it kicks on at 4:30am and kicks off at 4:45am.
In the evening it kicks on at 8:15 and off at 8:30.

 

[alia176]

I'm not looking for a simple appliance timer, but looking for a whole different kind of animal

 

[PIP]

Sounds like a perfect job for a timing relay. You need a J-box, some DIN rail, a DIN mount timing relay. The simplest timing relays have the adjustment knob right on top. More complex ones use a remotely mountable rheostat.

I don't know what the pump's load is like, but if it's more than a few amps you probably want to add a small contactor sized correctly for the motor's load. Single phase DIN contactors are very simple.

You can use the contactors auxiliary contacts to cycle the touch plate signal to de-latch the system and turn off the light.

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Something like this might do it all in one.

 

[e9999]

I've been looking into this too. I have a big system. I think I'm going to go with a wireless radio switched outlet dongle over a timer system. I timed things and I only needed to recirculate for 30 secs maybe 1 min to make hot water available everywhere even though it's a big house and a very efficient heater. Leaning that way mostly because we take showers at fairly random times and I want to keep it simple. So whoever takes the shower hits the switch for 30 s / 1 min before going into the shower and that's that. Yes, there is the possibility of forgetting but not so likely if we keep the switch in hand for a minute (and no kids here normally). Maybe there are remote switches that you need to keep pressing, not sure. And yes, I may put in a delay system sometimes but not that desperate yet.

 

[alia176]

Sounds like a perfect job for a timing relay. You need a J-box, some DIN rail, a DIN mount timing relay. The simplest timing relays have the adjustment knob right on top. More complex ones use a remotely mountable rheostat.

I don't know what the pump's load is like, but if it's more than a few amps you probably want to add a small contactor sized correctly for the motor's load. Single phase DIN contactors are very simple.

You can use the contactors auxiliary contacts to cycle the touch plate signal to de-latch the system and turn off the light.

ON/OFF Repeat Cycle Relay 16A GRT8-S1 AC/DC12-240V Asymmetric Cycle Time Relay | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for ON/OFF Repeat Cycle Relay 16A GRT8-S1 AC/DC12-240V Asymmetric Cycle Time Relay at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

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Something like this might do it all in one.

You get me amigo, you get me!!!

Yeah, I got the DIN rail ready to go as well as a tiny contactor relay, just need the correct timing relay.

The light on the Touch Plate will be staying on because it's controlled by the same double action solenoid that controls the pump. By double action, I mean once the user pushes the button, the TC (touch control) solenoid changes state, then de-energizes. Once the PB is hit again, the TC solenoid changes state, the de-energizes. So, it doesn't feel like a "latching" relay to me, at least I think that's what is going on because I'm not hearing a hummmmmm sound from the TC solenoid itself during either of this state, nor am I feeling any warmth from the device. This makes sense to me as having a solenoid be continiously energized would shorten the life span. The house is 30 yo and not a single solenoid has cooked itself. You gotta love good old USA made Ingersal Rand products from "back in the day".

The timing relay looks good to me and I'll try to find an AB/Siemens/CH equivalent for a higher quality version. I love the flexibility this type of timing relay offers.

Thanks dude!!

 

[alia176]

I've been looking into this too. I have a big system. I think I'm going to go with a wireless radio switched outlet dongle over a timer system. I timed things and I only needed to recirculate for 30 secs maybe 1 min to make hot water available everywhere even though it's a big house and a very efficient heater. Leaning that way mostly because we take showers at fairly random times and I want to keep it simple. So whoever takes the shower hits the switch for 30 s / 1 min before going into the shower and that's that. Yes, there is the possibility of forgetting but not so likely if we keep the switch in hand for a minute (and no kids here normally). Maybe there are remote switches that you need to keep pressing, not sure. And yes, I may put in a delay system sometimes but not that desperate yet.

Your plan sounds good to me Eric. Another buddy of mine who has a similar recirc pump system (added after the house was built) uses Alexa to turn the pump on using voice command. He says that the pump runs for 20 min, then Alexa says "hot water is ready", and the hoomans take their showers. If the pump runs any longer than 20 min, the cold water pipes start to put out warm and eventually hot water.

Thankfully, my house was built with the hot water recirc system from the beginning. My pump has run for eight to ten hours and the cold water stays cold. The original owner and builder did a great job on my house. I believe the first owner was a Honeywell nerd so it stands to reason he designed a smart house from the '80s.

 

[e9999]

Yes, my system has a separate loop for the hot water going back all the way to the water heater, so there is no mixing of hot and cold water like what you have with the little retrofit pump-under-a-sink-with-a-valve kind of systems. I did some tests with a generic largish pump I have but still want to get a little Grundfos dedicated one. They are surprisingly expensive actually.

You are getting me to think, I do have some 120V temperature controllers some place, maybe I could rig a system where it would recirculate until the hot water pipe gets to a specific temperature and then it stops the pump. That should be very easy to work out if I have the right parts. Or better, but more complicated, build something with an Arduino.

 

[PIP]

You could use the same exact temp switch your hot water heater uses.

 

[e9999]

well, the temperature switches on all the water heaters I've seen, including one that is less than a year old and close to top of the line, are purely mechanical with an immersed temperature probe, so it would not be so easy to mate those to a pump electric power system. But there may be other types too, I imagine.

Thinking some more about this, it looks to me like a good solution is a wifi smart plug/outlet with an app on your phone *preferably with a countdown function*. Like you click once on your app a bit before the shower to get the pump to run and it automatically turns the outlet/pump off after 2 mins. Then you only have to click once and won't forget to turn it off after a bit. Know of one?
And, no, not feeling like having my wifi system listen to me full time, but I'm curious, would these Alexa etc systems allow you to say something like "turn this outlet on for 2 mins only" or would that have to be strictly first "turn on" and then later "turn off" as in 2 separate operations?

 

[alia176]

And, no, not feeling like having my wifi system listen to me full time, but I'm curious, would these Alexa etc systems allow you to say something like "turn this outlet on for 2 mins only" or would that have to be strictly first "turn on" and then later "turn off" as in 2 separate operations?

That's what I mentioned previously, my buddy has Alexa run the water pump for 20 min then shuts it down and announces "hot water is ready" over the speaker.