Long range fuel tanks

[VidereStudios]

Hey LCTom,

Yeah, got a couple boring updates (no pictures)...still in progress on this. Work has been especially busy this last part of summer.

Anyway, the 45 gallon tank is completed...pressure tested, good to go. I just need to get the time to install it. And document the install...which is the time killer. It is a pretty easy install in and of itself, but when I do it, I need to document it with pictures for the installation instructions. I am hoping that I can do that this month.

I also met up with Nick (gypsycruiser) and we completely measured out the location, etc. for the charcoal canister in '03+ rigs. I have worked that into the drawings for the two smaller tanks. I just need to figure out the attachment of those tanks as they will not attach to the back crossmember (in case someone wants to use the BIOR high clearance bumper or the 4x4labs bumper) and how to work around the exhaust pipe. Also need to make sure to accommodate those with either 1/2" or 1" body lifts.

If I didn't work fulltime jobs, it would be a piece of cake to get this banged out. Oh well. I am hoping that I can have the 45 gallon tanks finalized in the next month or so and ready for a group buy. The two smaller tanks are realistically first quarter next year. I want them to be ready to go so people can buy them before the summer travels start...

 

[KlausVanWinkle]

How big are the two small tanks? The 25 gallon tank market is real empty and probably the sweet spot.

 

[VidereStudios]

The smallest tank is targeted to be between 15-20 gallons and will sit entirely above the frame (hopefully!). The charcoal canister really takes a chunk out of it.

The middle tank is looking to be between 25-30 gallons and will sit a bit below the frame rails, but not nearly like the 45 gallon tank (see pics above).

I am going to try and block out pretty much everything this month so that I can make some serious progress. I think I should be able to have the big tank installed next weekend.

 

[2000UZJ]

The smallest tank is targeted to be between 15-20 gallons and will sit entirely above the frame (hopefully!). The charcoal canister really takes a chunk out of it. The middle tank is looking to be between 25-30 gallons and will sit a bit below the frame rails, but not nearly like the 45 gallon tank (see pics above). I am going to try and block out pretty much everything this month so that I can make some serious progress. I think I should be able to have the big tank installed next weekend.

Nice! Id love a 20 gallon tank. The issue for me is smashing it up. I've dented my OEM tank badly. How are yours armored?

 

[LCTom]

VidereStudios, if you are conducting market research, then my preference would be for the middle tank. Seems like a nice balance of range and exposure. I have a 2001, so no canister issues here, but I suspect it is for others. Obviously, you can't make a hundred different tank sizes, so I'll just nudge you in the direction of my personal preference.

 

[Actualeyes]

The issue for me is smashing it up. I've dented my OEM tank badly. How are yours armored?

I've had the Long Ranger Tank on a 105 Series which doesn't affect exit angle really - e.g. it sits inside the line between the tow bar and the rear axle.

This had done a lot of hard work including Australian High Country, Kimberley and other very rough work and had taking a very solid beating (probably "dropped on rocks" 20 times in its life). It sure looked beat up underneath and probably had a few less litres capacity, but with whatever gusseting it had it still performed fine - no cracks or leaks. It had no separate armour.

http://thelongranger.com.au/100serieslongrangefueltank.html

They list a bunch of design features you might want to consider:

http://thelongranger.com.au/features/leda.htm

Now I have a Liquid Petroleum Gas tank on the LX...

 

[VidereStudios]

Nice! Id love a 20 gallon tank. The issue for me is smashing it up. I've dented my OEM tank badly. How are yours armored?

I am debating making a skidplate for the smallest tank...or actually making it out of thicker steel. I'll let you know when I figure that part out...

VidereStudios, if you are conducting market research, then my preference would be for the middle tank. Seems like a nice balance of range and exposure. I have a 2001, so no canister issues here, but I suspect it is for others. Obviously, you can't make a hundred different tank sizes, so I'll just nudge you in the direction of my personal preference.

Tom, thanks for the feedback. Seems like most posters in this thread want the middle sized one. I am going to get working on that one in the next month. Hoping to have a prototype done by mid-November for the middle sized tank.

This had done a lot of hard work including Australian High Country, Kimberley and other very rough work and had taking a very solid beating (probably "dropped on rocks" 20 times in its life). It sure looked beat up underneath and probably had a few less litres capacity, but with whatever gusseting it had it still performed fine - no cracks or leaks. It had no separate armour.

Now I have a Liquid Petroleum Gas tank on the LX...

Thanks for the info and the links. How is your LPG system working out? I have heard that you really have to monitor those things as they can damage the valves if they are running too rich.

 

[VidereStudios]

Okay, I have a couple questions for you guys interested in a longer range fuel tank setup. If you have a few moments to respond, I would much appreciate it.

First of all, most people seem to be interested in the middle sized subtank (25-30 gallons). I have several options on materials to make these. I can get them made of raw steel and leave it that way on the inside or I could coat the inside with POR15 or a similar product to line the subtank to help keep it from rusting out. The other option would be to go stainless steel. Any thoughts / preferences on this?

Secondly, there are quite a few options for fuel pumps and filters. Would you prefer to sort that out yourselves or would you prefer to have the subtank come in a kit with everything needed? Costs can vary widely on these extra parts...I tend to default to high quality with minor regard to price. For example, the fuel pump that I am using on the 45 gallon prototype tank is a pretty speedy Carter that cost me over $115. I don't know if you guys are interested in spending that kind of money.

Finally, the dual filler neck from Japan is running approximately $250-300, depending to exchange rates. This part will have to be modified for '03+ rigs due to the charcoal canister location. I could either bring these in and do it for you and then ship them (so you would essentially be paying extra money for shipping from me to you) or would you prefer to bring them in yourselves from Dave at Japan4x4 and make the modification yourself? Of course I would provide an exact part number and contact info for Dave as well as the instructions to cut and modify the dual filler pipes. Thoughts?

I will be able to get an exact cost on the 45 gallon subtank soon. I am a little concerned about the cost creeping up on these (with all the additional parts, etc.). But I think I need to be realistic on these...they are going to be spendy and will be approaching the cost of bringing in a Long Ranger or LRA tank. I don't know if that is a deal breaker...I am willing to do this for a minimal cost for my time, but the costs for the subtank fabrication and the dual filler neck are pushing this modification cost into pretty high territory. Unfortunately, I can't guess at numbers right now, but in the next month I should be able to have a complete price on the 45 gallon tank and some good ballpark numbers on the other two tanks.

 

[hoser]

I think 25 gallons is a good size for US folks. It doubles the current range... and usually none of your buddies have more than that amount in jerry cans anyway.

My tank is built from 14 gauge aluminized steel and it seems to be holding up fine. The bottom has a few dents in it but no leaks/cracks showing. If I was in the market for a new one, I would prefer thicker steel on the bottom or having it doubled up.

 

[perrobravo]

Okay, I have a couple questions for you guys interested in a longer range fuel tank setup. If you have a few moments to respond, I would much appreciate it.

First of all, most people seem to be interested in the middle sized subtank (25-30 gallons). I have several options on materials to make these. I can get them made of raw steel and leave it that way on the inside or I could coat the inside with POR15 or a similar product to line the subtank to help keep it from rusting out. The other option would be to go stainless steel. Any thoughts / preferences on this?

Secondly, there are quite a few options for fuel pumps and filters. Would you prefer to sort that out yourselves or would you prefer to have the subtank come in a kit with everything needed? Costs can vary widely on these extra parts...I tend to default to high quality with minor regard to price. For example, the fuel pump that I am using on the 45 gallon prototype tank is a pretty speedy Carter that cost me over $115. I don't know if you guys are interested in spending that kind of money.

Finally, the dual filler neck from Japan is running approximately $250-300, depending to exchange rates. This part will have to be modified for '03+ rigs due to the charcoal canister location. I could either bring these in and do it for you and then ship them (so you would essentially be paying extra money for shipping from me to you) or would you prefer to bring them in yourselves from Dave at Japan4x4 and make the modification yourself? Of course I would provide an exact part number and contact info for Dave as well as the instructions to cut and modify the dual filler pipes. Thoughts?

I will be able to get an exact cost on the 45 gallon subtank soon. I am a little concerned about the cost creeping up on these (with all the additional parts, etc.). But I think I need to be realistic on these...they are going to be spendy and will be approaching the cost of bringing in a Long Ranger or LRA tank. I don't know if that is a deal breaker...I am willing to do this for a minimal cost for my time, but the costs for the subtank fabrication and the dual filler neck are pushing this modification cost into pretty high territory. Unfortunately, I can't guess at numbers right now, but in the next month I should be able to have a complete price on the 45 gallon tank and some good ballpark numbers on the other two tanks.

VidereStudios, thanks for continuing to work on this.

Not sure I have a preference on materials, but I'd be game for the 25-30 gallon for my '03. I'd also be willing to pay for the right pump/filter, and for sure would prefer it to be part of the kit. Same for the filler pipe. The less I have to figure out on my own the better...

 

[VidereStudios]

My tank is built from 14 gauge aluminized steel and it seems to be holding up fine. The bottom has a few dents in it but no leaks/cracks showing. If I was in the market for a new one, I would prefer thicker steel on the bottom or having it doubled up.

Yeah, that aluminized steel is pretty nice stuff...we debated going that route on the prototype. However, my fabricator said that the aluminum coating is burned off at the joints during the welding process, so the whole benefit of protecting the steel with the aluminum coating is wasted at the joints. The now bare metal at those locations would eventually start to rust.

I am working on the make-up of the smaller tanks and am thinking of either using 6 gauge on the bottom or doubling up as you said. The 45 gallon prototype is made of 12 gauge and that thing is a beast. I don't think I would want to make it any heavier than it is.

Turns out I have to work most of the weekend, so I won't be able to get the subtank installed this weekend. However, I told my bosses it is under the condition that I get a full weekend next weekend. So hopefully lots of progress will happen in little over a week!

 

[jonharis]

Great updates. My interest lies primarily in a level with the frame option. Be it 20 gallons or whatever. My reasoning is twofold. One, I feel that with a bumper/tire carrier/whatever we are already pushing the weight limits of the frame on the back of these trucks (search for bent frame). Adding 45 gallons of fuel to the mix seems a recipe for both poor handling and potential for unintended stresses. Reason two is cosmetics/departure angle. I could live with a 1-2" drop below the frame potentially but would prefer flush. 4-6" or more would be a deal breaker for me. I also would want this to be as integrated and plug and play as possible. As with other aftermarket accessories, I've found that when all the miscellaneous hardware and parts/pieces are supplied, the headaches saved outweigh the added cost.

As for specifics. Stainless, dual filler neck and a overbuilt bottom pan would be my preferences. If you are between 6 and 12 gauge I would go 6 regardless of capacity or the bottom of the tank.

 

[Actualeyes]

I feel that with a bumper/tire carrier/whatever we are already pushing the weight limits of the frame on the back of these trucks (search for bent frame). Adding 45 gallons of fuel to the mix seems a recipe for both poor handling and potential for unintended stresses. Reason two is cosmetics/departure angle.

Remember that Toyota ship a sub tank in that position, and that the tank is much closer to the fulcrum compared to the rear bar especially with wheels, fuel etc on it.

The weight of the extra fuel/tank is probably not in a position to make a significant impact. Numerous Australian expedition vehicles have dual wheel carriers and 180 litre tanks as well as being heavily loaded (we have to do very long trips for some of our favourite adventures - google Canning Stock Route, for instance) and 100 series don't tend to bend or break frames (unlike Patrols).

 

[Actualeyes]

How is your LPG system working out? I have heard that you really have to monitor those things as they can damage the valves if they are running too rich.

LPG is a Liquid injection system and it runs really nicely - probably better than Petrol, but hard to get a baseline for a scientific test without dynoing it.

The system I have from Orbital has its own ECU which automatically makes its own adjustments. The only potential issue with LPG is the lower lubrication effect of the fuel, but as it starts on Petrol and when the LPG runs out falls back to the main petrol tank, that is not much of an issue anyway, as it runs on petrol some of the time anyway. It is just that here the LPG is half the cost of petrol and should be half the cost of what it is, except that there is such an export market demand for LPG.

 

[dclee]

My preference is whatever clears the damn charcoal canister! If you think about market exclusivity, there are already at least two big companies out there making tanks for non-canister trucks. But in the U.S., if you could produce a version that accommodates the canister, then you would be the only game in town for any truck from MY2003-2007.

 

[LCTom]

Great updates. My interest lies primarily in a level with the frame option. Be it 20 gallons or whatever. My reasoning is twofold. One, I feel that with a bumper/tire carrier/whatever we are already pushing the weight limits of the frame on the back of these trucks (search for bent frame). Adding 45 gallons of fuel to the mix seems a recipe for both poor handling and potential for unintended stresses. Reason two is cosmetics/departure angle. I could live with a 1-2" drop below the frame potentially but would prefer flush. 4-6" or more would be a deal breaker for me. I also would want this to be as integrated and plug and play as possible. As with other aftermarket accessories, I've found that when all the miscellaneous hardware and parts/pieces are supplied, the headaches saved outweigh the added cost.

As for specifics. Stainless, dual filler neck and a overbuilt bottom pan would be my preferences. If you are between 6 and 12 gauge I would go 6 regardless of capacity or the bottom of the tank.

I think Jon is hitting most of the salient points. The parts are out there for folks to cobble together an auxiliary tank system, but I am really surprised that a tough, plug and play, 25-30 gallon kit is not out there. The 100 series is supposed to be one of the top expedition vehicles, but you really can't get to deep into the middle of nowhere without an auxiliary tank or an obnoxious amount of jerry cans. 5-6 jerry cans of fuel available at the switch of button? Hell, yeah! Now, getting such a system to the masses without breaking the bank may be a challenge, but I don't see anyone else doing it. A complete kit, down to the last clamp, fastener, etc. sounds very attractive.

 

[VidereStudios]

Great updates. My interest lies primarily in a level with the frame option. Be it 20 gallons or whatever. My reasoning is twofold. One, I feel that with a bumper/tire carrier/whatever we are already pushing the weight limits of the frame on the back of these trucks (search for bent frame). Adding 45 gallons of fuel to the mix seems a recipe for both poor handling and potential for unintended stresses. Reason two is cosmetics/departure angle. I could live with a 1-2" drop below the frame potentially but would prefer flush. 4-6" or more would be a deal breaker for me. I also would want this to be as integrated and plug and play as possible. As with other aftermarket accessories, I've found that when all the miscellaneous hardware and parts/pieces are supplied, the headaches saved outweigh the added cost.

As for specifics. Stainless, dual filler neck and a overbuilt bottom pan would be my preferences. If you are between 6 and 12 gauge I would go 6 regardless of capacity or the bottom of the tank.

Excellent feedback, Jon! Thanks for taking the time to articulate your thoughts! That kind of input is priceless!

Remember that Toyota ship a sub tank in that position, and that the tank is much closer to the fulcrum compared to the rear bar especially with wheels, fuel etc on it.

The weight of the extra fuel/tank is probably not in a position to make a significant impact. Numerous Australian expedition vehicles have dual wheel carriers and 180 litre tanks as well as being heavily loaded (we have to do very long trips for some of our favourite adventures - google Canning Stock Route, for instance) and 100 series don't tend to bend or break frames (unlike Patrols).

I agree. I think Jon is speaking out of the experience from his accident and subsequent frame damage. That being said, it is a lot of additional weight on the back of the truck. If you are doing more of overland type travel, the 45 gallon tank is actually quite desirable. The more technical you get, the better the smaller tanks become. Rockcrawlers and desert racers would prefer the smaller tank obviously due to clearance and weight considerations.

LPG is a Liquid injection system and it runs really nicely - probably better than Petrol, but hard to get a baseline for a scientific test without dynoing it.

The system I have from Orbital has its own ECU which automatically makes its own adjustments. The only potential issue with LPG is the lower lubrication effect of the fuel, but as it starts on Petrol and when the LPG runs out falls back to the main petrol tank, that is not much of an issue anyway, as it runs on petrol some of the time anyway. It is just that here the LPG is half the cost of petrol and should be half the cost of what it is, except that there is such an export market demand for LPG.

Thanks for the information. That is good to know. I briefly looked into the LPG option, but it was just too expensive with potential downsides. Glad to hear it is working out good for you!

 

[VidereStudios]

My preference is whatever clears the **** charcoal canister! If you think about market exclusivity, there are already at least two big companies out there making tanks for non-canister trucks. But in the U.S., if you could produce a version that accommodates the canister, then you would be the only game in town for any truck from MY2003-2007.

Yeah, that is what I am thinking as well. I got plenty of good measurements when I measured up the LC with the charcoal canister. It will definitely work...it is just a bit of a headache to work around and dealing with modifying the dual filler pipes.

I think Jon is hitting most of the salient points. The parts are out there for folks to cobble together an auxiliary tank system, but I am really surprised that a tough, plug and play, 25-30 gallon kit is not out there. The 100 series is supposed to be one of the top expedition vehicles, but you really can't get to deep into the middle of nowhere without an auxiliary tank or an obnoxious amount of jerry cans. 5-6 jerry cans of fuel available at the switch of button? ****, yeah! Now, getting such a system to the masses without breaking the bank may be a challenge, but I don't see anyone else doing it. A complete kit, down to the last clamp, fastener, etc. sounds very attractive.

I agree 100%. That is why I ended up going down this road. I personally wanted to greatly expand the distance my truck can go, but the options to do so all required pulling in parts from either Australia or South Africa. I decided that I would rather try to work something up with the fabricator I am working with because of all his great experience. He's forgotten more about welding and fabrication than I'll probably ever know!

The cost is going to be the factor that is go / no-go for most people. The kits will be well put together and each subtank type should offer differing options that meet the needs of varying driving adventures. Add in the fact that they are made with US metal and labor (with the exception of the JDM 100 series specific parts) and I don't think anybody will have anything to complain about. Just the potential cost...

 

[ChuckB]

I agree with the (more experienced than me) members above. A quality complete kit in the 20-30 gallon range for the 03+ would be worth paying for in my book.

I appreciate you taking on this project!

 

[KlausVanWinkle]

The smallest tank is targeted to be between 15-20 gallons and will sit entirely above the frame (hopefully!). The charcoal canister really takes a chunk out of it.

The middle tank is looking to be between 25-30 gallons and will sit a bit below the frame rails, but not nearly like the 45 gallon tank (see pics above).

I am going to try and block out pretty much everything this month so that I can make some serious progress. I think I should be able to have the big tank installed next weekend.

I'm definitely interested in the middle tank. Are you at the point where you have an estimated price point?