A few weeks ago now I did the front brakes with all OEM parts from Dan. New rotors, pads etc.. When I first bought the rig it had 162K on it. I took it up to the local mechanic to have the brakes done because I just didn't have the time to do it myself. Everything seemed to be fine. less than 20k later my truck would not even stop. my front wheels were constanlty black with brake dust. Turns out the the guy never lubed the pins the calipers slide on and the passenger side was stuck together for 20k miles. I had to drive it for about 2 weeks with brakes grinding and making awful noises. When I tore it apart the the PS pads were gone and the rotor was wore down to the cooling fins plus I was pushing brake fluid right out of the caliper onto the ground. I did the job right and cleaned everything up and lubed everything. I have been riding on the new brakes now for about a month, i have no brake dust on the wheels and I am getting a couple miles more to the gallon. search and read the FAQ's and previous posts on brakes and you will see that most on here will agree that OEM is the way ot go. Take it from me I learned the hard way. If you have to have the work done by others insist on OEM parts. I also bought the front end rebuild kit from Dan. Since my brake job was an emergency I didn't have time to dig into that, but will be doing it soon. It definetly makes sense to do that at the same time if need be. Bottom line is there are certain parts that you shouldn't even consider replacing with anything but OEM, do it right the first time.
Lesson learned and note to newbies (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter fiberboy
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I not necessarily agree. Sure you can pick cheap Chinese made no-brand pads and you are in trouble, but if you stick to something reputable usually it is no problem. Certain parts indeed need to be only OEM, but IMHO brake pads definitely not among this list. Stick to something like Ferodo or Bendix and you will be OK. And above all do not trust mechanics – this is for sure.
"And above all do not trust mechanics".
Unfortunately that is the reputation that my industry has. I have fought that image for years.
HOW DARE YOU?
I and most of my colleagues work tirelessly at keeping our training up to date and our equipment and tools current. To the tune of thousands of dollars on an annual basis. Replacing water pumps, brake pads, spark plugs......sure you can do it. Does that make you a mechanic, in some neighborhoods. Automotive technician absolutely not!!!
Using OE parts is mandatory with all Japanese and European automotive products. I won't comment on domestic ( my beloved USA ).
fiberboy's experience is more a product of poor / shoddy workmanship not aftermarket parts.
Interview your repair center, ask questions, verify training and equipment and expect to get what you pay for.
Don't paint with such a broad brush that suggests all of us are not to be trusted.
Very insulting.
Thank you for your time,
John
www.sdtrux.com
Unfortunately that is the reputation that my industry has. I have fought that image for years.
HOW DARE YOU?
I and most of my colleagues work tirelessly at keeping our training up to date and our equipment and tools current. To the tune of thousands of dollars on an annual basis. Replacing water pumps, brake pads, spark plugs......sure you can do it. Does that make you a mechanic, in some neighborhoods. Automotive technician absolutely not!!!
Using OE parts is mandatory with all Japanese and European automotive products. I won't comment on domestic ( my beloved USA ).
fiberboy's experience is more a product of poor / shoddy workmanship not aftermarket parts.
Interview your repair center, ask questions, verify training and equipment and expect to get what you pay for.
Don't paint with such a broad brush that suggests all of us are not to be trusted.
Very insulting.
Thank you for your time,
John
www.sdtrux.com
Please, no offences here.
Mechanics do business. Therefore they MUST earn money to survive. Therefore they have to cut cost to be competitive. Do you prepare to kill 4 hours of your time (and charge client accordingly!) trying to fix absolutely unimportant broken stud? I doubt. Sorry, but I seen so funny stuff coming from licensed mechanics that it is not a joke. Try for example silicon instead of seal in rear diff pinion. Or bearing and bearing cap from different manufactures. It is endless story. This situation resulting not from mechanics being lousy, but from public who like to pay nothing, but have a whole lot in return.
Sorry if I have offended you.
Addition.
You saying "Interview your repair center, ask questions, verify training and equipment and expect to get what you pay for." As for me it means that I have to understand fully what they doing and be able to check if they did it properly. By itself this does not mean any trust. Plus if I perfectly know what to do and dare to kill my time to check what been done probably it would be simpler to do it by myself at first place?
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I think it is hard for a lot of us that do not know about cars and trucks to trust most mechanics. It is so easy for us to be taken for a ride that people are just scared...this is even more true for people like myself who only could afford a land cruiser because it is 13 years old. most shops assume that if you can afford to drive it you can afford a premium to repair it.
case in point, look at the recent "dealer did a front axle service" thread and all the people picking it apart.
I have been lucky enough to have found a trust worth mechanic in town and though he is not a land cruiser expert and it takes him longer to do something because he has never done it before, i still take it to him because I believe he is being straight with me.
case in point I had him swap my PHH and do a flush and fill. he clocked 6.5 hours of labor and that was with me bringing him the write up from the blue silicon PHH hose site and the hose itself with clamps.... he said "I have never swapped one of these so I can't charge you for my inexperience and he took %50 off the bill."
It is things like this that make me trust him ...even so there is still a voice in the back of my head that is always saying "is this guy telling me the truth"
It may be unfair but it is just the nature of the career your in.
edit: just thought I should add that IH8mud.com has been invaluable to me in being able to tell if someone is taking me for a ride and has and will save me a ton of money. now that I think about it I really should donate a little cash considering all i get form this site.
case in point, look at the recent "dealer did a front axle service" thread and all the people picking it apart.
I have been lucky enough to have found a trust worth mechanic in town and though he is not a land cruiser expert and it takes him longer to do something because he has never done it before, i still take it to him because I believe he is being straight with me.
case in point I had him swap my PHH and do a flush and fill. he clocked 6.5 hours of labor and that was with me bringing him the write up from the blue silicon PHH hose site and the hose itself with clamps.... he said "I have never swapped one of these so I can't charge you for my inexperience and he took %50 off the bill."
It is things like this that make me trust him ...even so there is still a voice in the back of my head that is always saying "is this guy telling me the truth"
It may be unfair but it is just the nature of the career your in.
edit: just thought I should add that IH8mud.com has been invaluable to me in being able to tell if someone is taking me for a ride and has and will save me a ton of money. now that I think about it I really should donate a little cash considering all i get form this site.
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After working in the field for many years, I somewhat agree with some of your rant. Unfortunately you cant train "care" and many "professional techs" only care about their paycheck, don't give a **** about some customer's car.
I also disagree on your assessment of shade tree techs. Some are very good at studying the job, meticulous in doing it and windup doing a much better job than a "flat rater" could and still make money.
So there are hacks on both sides of the fence and it dosen't matter what brand of bling tool box they have. That "wide brush" spatters both ways!
Hello KSV,
Your analogy is interesting however not one that I agree with.
I am a shop owner. My technicians are paid the same whether they are working on cars or cleaning the shop. There is only one mantra at my shop, "put it back together the way Toyota built it."
Cutting costs is not what it takes to be competitive. Providing the best product possible for a competitive price IS what it takes.
Silicone instead of the proper seal, mismatched bearing caps, come on. You're hanging out at the wrong places. There isn't a quality shop that I am aware of that works like that. Please note, I said quality shop. Plenty of the kind you're describing and for that I'm sorry. It's horrible. Don't patronize them and maybe some of them will go away.
Monitoring costs is part of business. Toyota, Sony, Snap-On they all do it. Cutting quality is not part of theirs or my business plan.
Business is tough enough as it is and you are absolutely correct in stating that we must earn our money ( profit ) in order to survive. But if you want to stay in business and be there tomorrow then you must do it right today.
John
Your analogy is interesting however not one that I agree with.
I am a shop owner. My technicians are paid the same whether they are working on cars or cleaning the shop. There is only one mantra at my shop, "put it back together the way Toyota built it."
Cutting costs is not what it takes to be competitive. Providing the best product possible for a competitive price IS what it takes.
Silicone instead of the proper seal, mismatched bearing caps, come on. You're hanging out at the wrong places. There isn't a quality shop that I am aware of that works like that. Please note, I said quality shop. Plenty of the kind you're describing and for that I'm sorry. It's horrible. Don't patronize them and maybe some of them will go away.
Monitoring costs is part of business. Toyota, Sony, Snap-On they all do it. Cutting quality is not part of theirs or my business plan.
Business is tough enough as it is and you are absolutely correct in stating that we must earn our money ( profit ) in order to survive. But if you want to stay in business and be there tomorrow then you must do it right today.
John
I do not - do everything whatever I can by myself. If it came to the point that I cannot do it in my garage (diesel injector for example), then I dismantle and give them to specialized factory to rebuilt. Those examples happen before my time. And again I DO trust that there are good trustable mechanics around, I just have not found one because I do not need one. However still in believing that they are rarity.
As far as my experience going the best places are at dealers, problem is they charge way too much - it is cheaper for me to buy special tool and do it by myself. Not only piece of mind, but also good tools resides in my garage.
Baran,
Buy a star to help support MUD
. Cheap, easy, and nice bennies!As for mechanics etc. etc. etc. IMO, if you cannot do the work yourself then find a local independent shop that you feel you can trust. Ask around, check with the local clubs, etc. I almost feel that the smaller the shop is the better off you are.
Another thing is to join a Cruiser club in your area and get to know the people. Some of the folks in the club are probably pretty good wrenches, probably have experience doing what you need done, and are probably willing to show you how to do the work or even do the work for you as side money. I can change my own fluids etc. but when it comes to a full axle service, I'm not there yet on the
scale. I took this approach and it was a great learning experience for me and a very enjoyable way to spend an afternoon with a great wrench and a great person I use to think dealerships were the best way to go but some stories I've heard lately don't instill confidence there. The advantages to the dealership route is usually same day service, possible free loaner car or at least a shuttle service, and the ability to take the rig back if the repair isn't up to snuff. The disadvantage? You pay for the above and the dealerships tend to error on the side of caution which usually cost you more $$ than might be necessary. Take that antenna that no longer goes up or down. It might just be the antenna mast/cable itself (maybe a $40 part). The dealership however is likely to tell you the entire motor and all needs to be replaced because if they just replace the antenna mast and 9 months later the motor craps out...They don't want you coming back saying the repair didn't last and having to either foot the bill or explain to you that although the symptom is the same (antenna doesn't go up or down), the repair is not.
Just my nickels worth...
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Good job on running a tight shop, that's how they all should be run!
In my years as a tech, manager and trainer, the shops that I had contact with were all run correctly and I was blissfully ignorant to how most are run.
I was in hundreds of shops a year, dealing with techs, managers, owners, etc for over 15 years. The examples that you give above are the tip of the iceberg, charging for work not done, short cutting jobs, charging for factory parts and installing aftermarket, doing work that was unnecessary are relatively common.
You say "Don't patronize them and maybe some of them will go away." How is the average consumer going to know who to avoid? Most of the places that were the worst have the biggest signs, biggest waiting rooms, biggest bling tool boxes, cleanest floors and hire the best talking mouth to make customers feel comfortable. You and I would be on to them in a flash just by talking to one of their techs for a moment, but most don't have the experience to make that judgment and have to rely on learning from the outcome, after their $$$ is spent.
I agree 100% that there is enough money to be made to run a shop honestly, unfortunately a lot don't agree, I call it greed. Flat rate pay is just asking for fraud, it's way too easy, we always paid by the hour.
"Monitoring costs is part of business. ,,, Snap-On they all do it. Cutting quality is not part of theirs or my business plan."
That's pretty funny! About the only things that they haven't cut are the advertising, bling and BS departments!
All of the wagon jobber company's are loan sharks first, sales/advertising/promotional second and somewhere down the line they get to the tools!
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Whoa!! First of all I was not tyring to imply that trade mechanics are bad and not to be trusted. My point was I had a bad expierience with one in particular, I took the LC there b/c I did not have time to do the work myself and it needed to happen quickly. Everything seemed to be ok. I was already a member of this forum and had read the posts on brakes and did not take the advise. Hindsight being 20/20 I should have inspected the work that was done. I trusted them even though I had not used them before but they had come to me with good recomendations from others who take their vehicles to them. Second of all I never mentioned that I was not to blame here. 1) I should have asked the right questions and taken to free info and advise from this site and asked for the right parts. 2) I should have checked over their work. I prefer to do most work myself however my time like most others is stetched among other higher priorities. My original post was meant to be a lesson learned by me to listen to the folks on this site, they now what they are doing and have been down most of the "roads" before. and if you take toru rig to a mechanic be specific in what you want and do not assume anything. I was not trying to insight any ill feelings toward mechanics, I have a few in my family and would trust them to work on any of my vehicles if they lived closer. Sorry for any hard feelings I caused.
While we are on the subject, where is some good shops in San Diego?
In my shop we try to only use oem parts, especially on Japanese and German cars. They seem to be very picky on what parts you put on them, especially ignition and charging. I always say "You can put whatever you want on your car if you think you are smarter than the engineer that designed it." No matter how well a vehicle is manufactured and designed, in the long run, it is only as good as the history of services performed on it and how well it was done.
Mark W
Yep, it's true. I just don't care that much.
Am I the only one who notices something wrong here?
A 1992 FJ80 has fixed calipers. Not floating calipers. There are no pins that the calipers slide on. The caliper is one solid piece with pistons on both sides. The caliper does not move, but is bolted solidly in place. What you describe, as you describe it, is impossible. No such pieces and no such function.
There are guide/locator pins for the pads, but they are no supposed to be lubed and the holes are too large for the pads to bind on.
You may have had a pair of pistons seize. ???
Mark...
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x2- I was wondering about the 'missing lube' myself, but didn't catch the idea of sliding calipers, I assumed he was talking about the pad pins and wondered who told him to lube those... that would not be good.
-Spike
Dumb question, what would be the downside of putting some lube on the pad pins? I realize the FSM doesn't call for this.
Cruiserdrew
On the way there
Well said, but....
It has been my experience that overcharging, up charging, and just plain trying to pull a fast one, are the norm for most shops. Case in point-My 18 yo daughter takes her Nissan into the dealer because the starter was making a funny noise. Estimate: $700. ($400 just for the part). I go into the same dealership, the parts department wants $220 for the starter. I take the starter in hand and walk over to the service writer. We chat about cars, how much I hate working on the Nissan, my cruiser etc. We finally get to how much to install the starter. "An hour of shop time" ($110). So, a $400 saving just by being a bit savy. I was happy and sad-sad because my daughter won't always have someone with a clue in her corner.
All too often, an easy mark is taken for a full ride. So yes, your industry does have a bad reputation. Unfortunately, it is a reputation earned over a life time of repair experiences for most people. Women in particular are easy marks, and there is the fear factor of a break down.
Your shop sounds like a gem, I wish more were similar. I am so jaded, that I basically only trust myself not to overcharge
, or speciality Land Cruiser guys like Mudrak, JimC, etc.
Mark W
Yep, it's true. I just don't care that much.
Chance of getting the lube on the pads. Likelyhood of the lube holding grit and other particles that would lead to build up of "gunk" that would interfere with the free movement of the pads and actually wind up creating problems that will not occur normally.
A SMALL bit of anti-seize in the holes in the caliper where the pins fit is not a bad idea if the rig is operated in adverse conditions. Make sure to wipe off any excess.
Mark...
