LCA bushings, SPC UCA setting, or something else? (1 Viewer)

[linuxgod]

I just put new tires on this weekend. 111k on the truck now. The specialty alignment shop around here didn't have any appointments for a couple weeks so I tried Car-X near me this weekend as they have good reviews. The truck started with the following alignment specs (approximate):

	Left	Right
Caster	4.0*	4.4*
Camber	-1.0*	-1.2*
Toe	-.08"	-.41"

I expected caster to be high than spec and camber to be near the bottom, as that's what I've been running up until now, so those were pretty close. Camber was lower than it had been set 2 years ago (about -.5). Toe was off on the right side.

The shop loosened the cams and was able to adjust the left caster to 3.1 and camber on both sides to -0.8, but couldn't move caster on the right at all. They turned the right cam all the way but caster wouldn't move. I asked if they'd adjust the ball joint on the SPC UCA since I have it set at +2 degrees and so moving it to +1 should get caster in spec on the right and give them more to work with. They claimed they couldn't get the nut loose (not sure if that's true) and ended up giving me the truck back, no charge, The shop said the LCA cam bushing are shot, which is why camber won't go higher than -0.8 and caster isn't moving when they try to adjust the right side.

My questions for those with some alignment experience here (@Taco2Cruiser, @TeCKis300, et al):

• If I move the SPC ball joints from +2 to +1, will that affect camber as well as caster like cam adjustments do, or just caster? Any reason for me not to do this given I'd like to back off caster a bit anyway?
• If the best camber they can get is -0.8 deg and caster isn't moving on the right, does the assessment that the LCA bushings are shot sound right? Seems reasonable to me, I'm just looking for a second opinion
• The specialty alignment shop around here likes to push caster around 4 degrees, maybe a bit more, and leave camber a bit negative. With a ~2" lift, +25 offset 34" tires, and at least half my mileage with a trailer attached, anyone with experience want to weigh in on what they think I should run and why? I've been fine with my settings previously and it tows great, but I had a lot of tire noise for a while, some chunking of my old tires, and not totally even wear so I'm thinking the alignment might have worn them unevenly despite regular rotations.

SPC cam bolts look like they're about $60/pair so not terribly expensive though I'll need to have someone press them in/out as I don't have a press.

 

[Yossarian]

I've looked at the SPC cam bolts also, as I've already had one LCA that was seized. It was repaired under warranty as I couldn't get a proper alignment without it, so OEM went back in.

 

[TeCKis300]

I'm not familiar with the SPC positions and settings, so can't really comment on that.

Your alignment wasn't too bad in terms is caster and camber. The added camber was probably even helping to a degree with your relatively low offset. Toe could use work as the total toe there is more than you want, particularly when towing heavy as that just increases toe with load.

It's wholly possible the couldn't dial more caster out either due to bushing, alignment tab, or range based on the SPC setting.

 

[linuxgod]

I'm not familiar with the SPC positions and settings, so can't really comment on that.

Your alignment wasn't too bad in terms is caster and camber. The added camber was probably even helping to a degree with your relatively low offset. Toe could use work as the total toe there is more than you want, particularly when towing heavy as that just increases toe with load.

It's wholly possible the couldn't dial more caster out either due to bushing, alignment tab, or range based on the SPC setting.

Toe was originally set to 1/16", so the right side being a bit out isn't terrible. The shop did adjust that.

I feel like camber is a bit low now, but more concerning was that as they couldn't move it at all, even though they were moving the cams. Especially concerning that moving the cams on the right side didn't move caster on that side at all. Which is why they said it's bad bushings. I just didn't have a ton of confidence in the guy I spoke with... got the feeling they just wanted me out of there, which is why I thought I'd poll those with actual knowledge (as opposed to me theoretical knowledge) on if this seems reasonable.

Do you (or does anyone) know offhand how cam adjustments affect caster and camber? i.e. if you decrease caster by 1 degree does it increase (or decrease) camber by 0.5 degrees, for instance? I know I've seen charts on this but I can't discern how to read them

 

[linuxgod]

Updating my question a bit if anyone is reading. If the shop turned the cam but didn't get any adjustment, is it more likely the bushing is bad or that the LCA cam bolt is actually frozen? I've been thinking about it a bit and I'm thinking the latter, but figured I'd throw it out there.

Assuming it is a frozen cam bolt, just how much am I going to hate this job? I'm assuming more than likely I'm going to have to cut them to get the LCA off, at least on the passenger's side. At that point does it need new bushings or will the old bolt come out ok? Wondering if I should just bite the bullet and do new LCAs since they'll have new ball joints too.

 

[CharlieS]

I may be misunderstanding, but my observation is that if the bolt can turn, and the tabs on the frame are intact, that this must move that part of the LCA in or out. If the bolt is frozen, to me that suggests that it is corroded to the metal sleeve in the bushing, preventing rotation.

Sounds like new adjusting cam bolts and bushing(s) are in order. A whole LCA swap might be easier (labor wise).

 

[linuxgod]

I may be misunderstanding, but my observation is that if the bolt can turn, and the tabs on the frame are intact, that this must move that part of the LCA in or out. If the bolt is frozen, to me that suggests that it is corroded to the metal sleeve in the bushing, preventing rotation.

Sounds like new adjusting cam bolts and bushing(s) are in order. A whole LCA swap might be easier (labor wise).

That is what I thought as well. It's possible they only moved the front cam and not the rear. Also possible the front cam on the PS was already turned full. Or that the but on the cam turned but the bolt was frozen and they couldn't actually turn it, but also couldn't clearly explain WTF was up. For an alignment shop with 300+ 4.8 star rating I'm unimpressed.

My normal alignment shop (which is great) didn't want to touch the job. He said he recently had to cut a set off and it was about 3 hours labor for one side. Sounds high to me but I suppose I'll find out when I get into it in a couple weeks. I'm assuming my battery powered sawzall will be able to chew through the bolt fine if need be, so mostly curious whether I'll need new bushings or if the SPC tool for this will just work as expected to push them out

spc 40915 - Google Shopping

www.google.com

 

[Yossarian]

I'm sure you've seen this? Stuck bolt on front lca - https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/stuck-bolt-on-front-lca.1249447/ Common issue on IFS Toyota trucks.

@bloc brought up in another thread, just because the alignment numbers look ok does not mean that the alignment is correct. When the dealer mechanic returned my LC to me after alignment, as I was backing up one of the front wheels was now rubbing the wheel well (it didn't arrive that way). That's when he confessed that the cam bolts on one side were frozen, hence the warranty in my earlier post to get a proper alignment. If the alignment shop can rotate the bolt, but it's frozen to the steel sleeve inside the bushing, all it's doing is deforming the rubber (hence no apparent movement for you).

The result can be the left vs. the right wheel might be out of alignment with each other, i.e. slightly forwards or back in relation to each other. The point @bloc made, was you might be able to force an alignment, but the whole package works better if it's closer to a neutral state.

I may start to gather parts for this project as I know it's coming again, new or takeoff LCA's, SPC cam bolts, etc.

HTH and good luck.

 

[CharlieS]

@Yossarian I agree with your general message, but if you are moving the bolt/cam against the stops on the frame, it is changing the orientation of the center of the bolt, thus changing the alignment settings.

I don’t think this statement is quite correct: “If the alignment shop can rotate the bolt, but it's frozen to the steel sleeve inside the bushing, all it's doing is deforming the rubber (hence no apparent movement for you).”

 

[Yossarian]

True, it is speculation without being hands on. But "if" there isn't movement of the LCA, and the bolt can turn, possible the bushing sleeve is separated?

 

[CharlieS]

Yes, I suppose. If the metal bushing sleeve was detached you’d still get changes in your alignment if the bolt and cam move.

The bolt I am talking about is off center in a disk, the circumference of the disk is prevented from moving up and down and literally by metal tabs on the frame. The bolt is never centered in this arrangement. It is always offset, so when the bolt turns, as long as the metal frame tabs are intact, it always changes the location of the bolt relative to the center of the disk. That is what moves that part of the LCA, and adjusts the alignment. Is this the same part everyone else is talking about? There are a pair of them on each lower control arm (one fore and one aft).

 

[linuxgod]

I'm sure you've seen this? Stuck bolt on front lca - https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/stuck-bolt-on-front-lca.1249447/ Common issue on IFS Toyota trucks.

@bloc brought up in another thread, just because the alignment numbers look ok does not mean that the alignment is correct. When the dealer mechanic returned my LC to me after alignment, as I was backing up one of the front wheels was now rubbing the wheel well (it didn't arrive that way). That's when he confessed that the cam bolts on one side were frozen, hence the warranty in my earlier post to get a proper alignment. If the alignment shop can rotate the bolt, but it's frozen to the steel sleeve inside the bushing, all it's doing is deforming the rubber (hence no apparent movement for you).

The result can be the left vs. the right wheel might be out of alignment with each other, i.e. slightly forwards or back in relation to each other. The point @bloc made, was you might be able to force an alignment, but the whole package works better if it's closer to a neutral state.

I may start to gather parts for this project as I know it's coming again, new or takeoff LCA's, SPC cam bolts, etc.

HTH and good luck.

Yep I did read that thread. It’s actually what got me thinking the alignment shop was a bunch of tools and the bushings themselves were actually ok.

I’m assuming if I can manage to cut through the bolt and bushings that the LCA will fall out and then I just need to knock the ball joint loose and remove the sway bar end?

Would y’all use the SPC cam/bolts as a replacement with a new LCA, or would you use the Toyota bolts with anti-seize?

Looks like a pair of LCAs with bushings is about $650 delivered. Bushings alone are about $300, and I’m thinking it’ll be easier to swap them than to try and press the old ones out (especially since I don’t have a press... which means trying to hammer them out).

anything else I should know before attempting this? Anyone got an idea how long this will take? Any recommendations on a special sawzall blade for this?

 

[TeCKis300]

Updating my question a bit if anyone is reading. If the shop turned the cam but didn't get any adjustment, is it more likely the bushing is bad or that the LCA cam bolt is actually frozen? I've been thinking about it a bit and I'm thinking the latter, but figured I'd throw it out there.

Assuming it is a frozen cam bolt, just how much am I going to hate this job? I'm assuming more than likely I'm going to have to cut them to get the LCA off, at least on the passenger's side. At that point does it need new bushings or will the old bolt come out ok? Wondering if I should just bite the bullet and do new LCAs since they'll have new ball joints too.

At certain positions, the cam adjusters have less influence and range. It's wholly possible the UCA @ +2 position puts the cams in these lower influence ranges. Or a combination of this with frozen cams.

It think your original alignment was pretty good with changes reflecting some settling of the front suspension from the previous alignment. They really only needed dial the toe back in. Maybe a wee bit too much camber, but some additional negative camber isn't particularly bad with really tall profile sidewalls and aggressive offsets.

 

[bloc]

Maybe I’m not being creative enough but I don’t see how we cut the lower bolt/bushing out without tearing up the inside surface of the slot in the crossmember that the bushings ride in. Then again going ape**** with a hammer on the bolt will probably do a fair bit of damage as well.

Also when you refer to hammering the bushings out of the LCA.. trust me. It won’t work, and my experience is with arms/bushings much smaller than these. It’s hard enough with a press due to the shape of the arm. I’d just get a new arm and be done with it.

 

[Yossarian]

Yep I did read that thread. It’s actually what got me thinking the alignment shop was a bunch of tools and the bushings themselves were actually ok.

I’m assuming if I can manage to cut through the bolt and bushings that the LCA will fall out and then I just need to knock the ball joint loose and remove the sway bar end?

Would y’all use the SPC cam/bolts as a replacement with a new LCA, or would you use the Toyota bolts with anti-seize?

Looks like a pair of LCAs with bushings is about $650 delivered. Bushings alone are about $300, and I’m thinking it’ll be easier to swap them than to try and press the old ones out (especially since I don’t have a press... which means trying to hammer them out).

anything else I should know before attempting this? Anyone got an idea how long this will take? Any recommendations on a special sawzall blade for this?

In theory, that should be all that's needed for removal of the LCA. Will reference the FSM you've provided me (thanks), but freeing the ball joint might be 1st.

The dealer used OEM cam bolts for the warranty of my LCA, and I requested the liberal use of anti-seize within the bushing sleeve. I prefer OEM to aftermarket, but the SPC bolts look like a good solution.

Cutting out the frozen bolts seems to be the path to removal. But as stated above, great care not to damage the holder in the frame. Lots of replacement blades and patience.

Estimate, 2+ hours a side?

 

[linuxgod]

In theory, that should be all that's needed for removal of the LCA. Will reference the FSM you've provided me (thanks), but freeing the ball joint might be 1st.

The dealer used OEM cam bolts for the warranty of my LCA, and I requested the liberal use of anti-seize within the bushing sleeve. I prefer OEM to aftermarket, but the SPC bolts look like a good solution.

Cutting out the frozen bolts seems to be the path to removal. But as stated above, great care not to damage the holder in the frame. Lots of replacement blades and patience.

Estimate, 2+ hours a side?

I prefer OEM to aftermarket normally too, though I have to wonder even with anti-seize due to the exposure if the goop will eventually wear off as moisture penetrates in there over time. Since the SPC kit is just bolts, cams, and a sleeve, I would think the only quality question is if the sleeve will eventually deteriorate?

It looks to me like cutting the bolts shouldn't damage the frame. As best I can tell it looks to me like the bushing has a washer on either end and you're cutting between the washer and the arm *through* the bushing. Maybe @Willy beamin will chime in as I think he did this repair.

lower control arm options

Cut between the bracket and bushing. Part frozen in bushing will stay in. Press bushing out , press new in.

forum.ih8mud.com

Yeah the first order of business will be to pop the ball joint loose. I have a 2# hammer, so I'm hoping that does the trick. If not I'll have to see if Advance has a ball joint remover tool. I might have to splurge on an electric sawzall as well, since my Ryobi runs on 18V batteries.

 

[Taco2Cruiser]

@linuxgod sent you a PM

 

[Willy beamin]

I prefer OEM to aftermarket normally too, though I have to wonder even with anti-seize due to the exposure if the goop will eventually wear off as moisture penetrates in there over time. Since the SPC kit is just bolts, cams, and a sleeve, I would think the only quality question is if the sleeve will eventually deteriorate?

It looks to me like cutting the bolts shouldn't damage the frame. As best I can tell it looks to me like the bushing has a washer on either end and you're cutting between the washer and the arm *through* the bushing. Maybe @Willy beamin will chime in as I think he did this repair.

lower control arm options

Cut between the bracket and bushing. Part frozen in bushing will stay in. Press bushing out , press new in.

forum.ih8mud.com

Yeah the first order of business will be to pop the ball joint loose. I have a 2# hammer, so I'm hoping that does the trick. If not I'll have to see if Advance has a ball joint remover tool. I might have to splurge on an electric sawzall as well, since my Ryobi runs on 18V batteries.

@linuxgod - I cut the seized cambolt free. Went in with the sawzaw in between the tiny slits on either side. Also replaced the cam bolt with the SPC anti seize cambolt. Been great for years. SPC's anti-seize method is a sleeve that the bolt rides in and the sleeve it not metal so no way for that to rust / seize.

 

[CharlieS]

@Willy beamin - would you consider this as a good preventative maintenance mod for people in rust country? It seems like during a suspension swap would be the ideal time, since you’d need to get it aligned anyway...

 

[Willy beamin]

@Willy beamin - would you consider this as a good preventative maintenance mod for people in rust country? It seems like during a suspension swap would be the ideal time, since you’d need to get it aligned anyway...

For sure