LC200 vs Power Wagon

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[Sorry if TLDR, but here's the full Monty discussion]

Right now we have a 75th Anniversary (2021) Power Wagon on 35s with an AT Summit buildout (see Insta feed for pics), a 2013 Land Cruiser (Mud Avatar image), and a 2004 LX 470. And three kids and a dog. We wanted more space than the 200 which the Ram certainly gives, but it's not a perfect solution. At least not for our missions. The truck can handle five of us for short trips by maxes out on longer ventures. Yeah, we could pack less stuff but the truck gets full fast. To solve that we've been running a two-vehicle (Ram + 200) convoy but that's sixteen cylinders to feed and I don't get to sit next to my wife. $200 fill-ups for the caravan add up.

We operate in three modes: mode 1) me + dog (or + one kid). mode 2) full family + dog. mode 3) full family + kid friend + dog. The only way I can solve all three of those is with a third-row SUV plus a trailer. With something like an Xpedition Voyager we can sleep two on top of the 200, two inside the trailer, and 2-4 on top of the trailer. And without the need to have a ground tent (which then require cots/sleeping pads, etc.). My current game plan is to reconfigure the back of the 200 to skinny up the drawers and allow the semi-permanent rear seats to stay in place. When solo, the drawers stay in and it's just the truck. For all other missions its truck + trailer, either with or without drawers depending upon pax count.

The other big consideration is trail presence. I live at 4,200 ft in the Deschutes National Forest. Mountains and forest service roads abound. My most common trip is to find a peak on a map and try to figure out how to get there. The 200 works great in that mission. The best sites are the ones hardest to get to. The Ram often fails due to width or turning radius. A tight turn-around for the 200 on a shelf road is a no-go in the Ram, requiring a long back-up. Not the end of the world but time consuming. And to be fair, this problem would be compounded with a trailer, but when it's the whole gang we're going to known spots. Recon missions are just me and the boy or me and a buddy. And turning the Ram is compounded when in 4WD. Those published turning circles are for 2WD. Try locking your center and doing tight turns. Same for any other SUV or truck without a center diff. This ended up being a bigger deal for my use than I had imagined. ATRAC and full-time 4WD are much more practical in real-world use than F/R lockers and the swaybar disconnect in the Ram.

And not to get off topic, but the base LX 600 is essentially a two row LC 300. No AHC. No third row. Very similar to what we had with the 2020 Heritage. And at 'only' $88k priced very similarly to the outgoing Land Cruiser. We'd definitely consider that over the new Sequoia if it had row numero tres. You need to move up to the $96k price point to get a third row in the LX 600, diminishing the value proposition for us. Most likely, we'll re-home the Power Wagon, keep the 200 as the 'Overlander', keep the 100 as the 'mule', and then eventually put a new Sequoia in a stall as the family mover. Captains chairs in the middle are another big win for the Seq.

Lastly, the 2004 100 (or 'The Mule' as we fondly refer to it as) has found great service as the 'get it done' rig. Ski bus. Home Depot hauler. Dump runs. Whatever. It's big and (relatively) light. And with 172k on the clock it's not a show queen. Nice to have one horse that can be ridden hard and put away wet. Often times literally on both.

I will say, the Ram is incredibly nice to ride in. Quite. Smooth (at least for a 3/4 ton). Fantastic audio system. Great seats. Etc. The engine is definitely less refined (as is any pushrod mill) and there's also the need to disable MDS with every trip to save the cams (read up on 'Hemi Tick'). But the 'Zed-F' 8-speed is a jewel of a trans and I've had only a single problem in 24,900 miles which was to replace an $8 outside temp sensor. On snow, the 20" extra wheelbase and extra weight make it super stable. Mountain pass travel in any weather is a non-event. I cross the Cascade range summits 60-80 times a year (!!) (30-40 round-trips). Add in 20+ ski days last year and my life is a lot about frozen road time. I've really appreciated the Ram for this. Not that I've ever had a problem with the 200 (or the 100) in the snow, it's just a more 'hands on' experience with a smaller SUV. Capable, but a bit more user participation required. Where sometimes I can feel the 200 getting a little loose, the long Ram drives white roads like it's on dry. Which is true for any other long-wheelbase vehicle. And the AT3W 35's seem perfect for the size/weight of the truck.

In an ideal world we'd have many vehicles, each an expert in their own domain. The real-world doesn't allow this. After living with the Ram for the last 18 months I'm just not sure the things it's really good at has the best alignment with what we need to ask it to do. I think if I were to draw a Venn diagram showing the overlapping circles of our mission needs with the two trucks the 200 would have more shaded area in the middle. Not a perfect solution, but possibly a better solution. Jury is still out, but that's where we're leaning right now.


I appreciate the drawn out explanation. Your experience somewhat mirrors ours with the PW, we loved it, still do, but it just wasn't the perfect fit for our mission/needs at the time. I still hold out hope that one might find its way into our garage again one day but it's not high on the list at the moment.

In regards to a two-row LX600 at $88K, if I held out any hope of seeing any at that price point anytime soon or that we'd even be happy with then I'd likely put our name down on one. The new Platinum or Capstone Sequoia is likely to be the addition our stable as my wives daily and our long range highway hauler. I am not thrilled about the option but it does appear to be the best fit for our needs in that area short of dropping six-figures for something extremely similar.
 
I’ve seen the new Seqouia in person and I really like it. The 21/24 mpg will be well received as well as the slightly additional space to the 200/300. And the aforementioned captain chairs in the middle row are highly desirable for us. It’s not a J-VIN Cruiser to be sure, but it looks like it will scratch a lot of our itches.

Looked at the Yukon/XL and it’s very nice. Similar the Grand Wagoneer. Both have superior features and finishes to the Toyota. Except they’re not Toyota’s. At 153k I’d take the 200 to Siberia tomorrow without question. The Ram always has me listening for something amiss.

The way I’ve described it to friends is I feel like I broke up with my high school sweetheart (200) and started dating the hot chick from the gym (Ram). While it was amazing, I was always in fear of her going crazy on me. She played Taylor Swift and I George Straight. Her Housewives of Jersey, me Seinfeld reruns. Then one day I ran into my old girl (200). She got jokes the hot one didn’t. She finished my sentences and had accurate insights to what was going on in my life. I thought I wanted the hot one (Ram) but at the end of the day my old sweetheart (200) was a better life companion.

168F6D1D-BF01-4FAE-AC29-1B6E9E620927.jpeg


ABC9CF92-0B72-41A4-A7F1-397AF8104CBA.jpeg
 
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[Sorry if TLDR, but here's the full Monty discussion]

Right now we have a 75th Anniversary (2021) Power Wagon on 35s with an AT Summit buildout (see Insta feed for pics), a 2013 Land Cruiser (Mud Avatar image), and a 2004 LX 470. And three kids and a dog. We wanted more space than the 200 which the Ram certainly gives, but it's not a perfect solution. At least not for our missions. The truck can handle five of us for short trips by maxes out on longer ventures. Yeah, we could pack less stuff but the truck gets full fast. To solve that we've been running a two-vehicle (Ram + 200) convoy but that's sixteen cylinders to feed and I don't get to sit next to my wife. $200 fill-ups for the caravan add up.

We operate in three modes: mode 1) me + dog (or + one kid). mode 2) full family + dog. mode 3) full family + kid friend + dog. The only way I can solve all three of those is with a third-row SUV plus a trailer. With something like an Xpedition Voyager we can sleep two on top of the 200, two inside the trailer, and 2-4 on top of the trailer. And without the need to have a ground tent (which then require cots/sleeping pads, etc.). My current game plan is to reconfigure the back of the 200 to skinny up the drawers and allow the semi-permanent rear seats to stay in place. When solo, the drawers stay in and it's just the truck. For all other missions its truck + trailer, either with or without drawers depending upon pax count.

The other big consideration is trail presence. I live at 4,200 ft in the Deschutes National Forest. Mountains and forest service roads abound. My most common trip is to find a peak on a map and try to figure out how to get there. The 200 works great in that mission. The best sites are the ones hardest to get to. The Ram often fails due to width or turning radius. A tight turn-around for the 200 on a shelf road is a no-go in the Ram, requiring a long back-up. Not the end of the world but time consuming. And to be fair, this problem would be compounded with a trailer, but when it's the whole gang we're going to known spots. Recon missions are just me and the boy or me and a buddy. And turning the Ram is compounded when in 4WD. Those published turning circles are for 2WD. Try locking your center and doing tight turns. Same for any other SUV or truck without a center diff. This ended up being a bigger deal for my use than I had imagined. ATRAC and full-time 4WD are much more practical in real-world use than F/R lockers and the swaybar disconnect in the Ram.

And not to get off topic, but the base LX 600 is essentially a two row LC 300. No AHC. No third row. Very similar to what we had with the 2020 Heritage. And at 'only' $88k priced very similarly to the outgoing Land Cruiser. We'd definitely consider that over the new Sequoia if it had row numero tres. You need to move up to the $96k price point to get a third row in the LX 600, diminishing the value proposition for us. Most likely, we'll re-home the Power Wagon, keep the 200 as the 'Overlander', keep the 100 as the 'mule', and then eventually put a new Sequoia in a stall as the family mover. Captains chairs in the middle are another big win for the Seq.

Lastly, the 2004 100 (or 'The Mule' as we fondly refer to it as) has found great service as the 'get it done' rig. Ski bus. Home Depot hauler. Dump runs. Whatever. It's big and (relatively) light. And with 172k on the clock it's not a show queen. Nice to have one horse that can be ridden hard and put away wet. Often times literally on both.

I will say, the Ram is incredibly nice to ride in. Quite. Smooth (at least for a 3/4 ton). Fantastic audio system. Great seats. Etc. The engine is definitely less refined (as is any pushrod mill) and there's also the need to disable MDS with every trip to save the cams (read up on 'Hemi Tick'). But the 'Zed-F' 8-speed is a jewel of a trans and I've had only a single problem in 24,900 miles which was to replace an $8 outside temp sensor. On snow, the 20" extra wheelbase and extra weight make it super stable. Mountain pass travel in any weather is a non-event. I cross the Cascade range summits 60-80 times a year (!!) (30-40 round-trips). Add in 20+ ski days last year and my life is a lot about frozen road time. I've really appreciated the Ram for this. Not that I've ever had a problem with the 200 (or the 100) in the snow, it's just a more 'hands on' experience with a smaller SUV. Capable, but a bit more user participation required. Where sometimes I can feel the 200 getting a little loose, the long Ram drives white roads like it's on dry. Which is true for any other long-wheelbase vehicle. And the AT3W 35's seem perfect for the size/weight of the truck.

In an ideal world we'd have many vehicles, each an expert in their own domain. The real-world doesn't allow this. After living with the Ram for the last 18 months I'm just not sure the things it's really good at has the best alignment with what we need to ask it to do. I think if I were to draw a Venn diagram showing the overlapping circles of our mission needs with the two trucks the 200 would have more shaded area in the middle. Not a perfect solution, but possibly a better solution. Jury is still out, but that's where we're leaning right now.

Every year I think about getting a PW and then remember that I live in the PNW and most of my adventures look like this lol

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0E7961A0-443A-488E-A3A7-F5F4F96268A2.jpeg
 
I’ve seen the new Seqouia in person and I really like it. The 21/24 mpg will be well received as well as the slightly additional space to the 200/300. And the aforementioned captain chairs in the middle row are highly desirable for us. It’s not a J-VIN Cruiser to be sure, but it looks like it will scratch a lot of our itches.

Looked at the Yukon/XL and it’s very nice. Similar the Grand Wagoneer. Both have superior features and finishes to the Toyota. Except they’re not Toyota’s. At 153k I’d take the 200 to Siberia tomorrow without question. The Ram always has me listening for something amiss.

The way I’ve described it to friends is I feel like I broke up with my high school sweetheart (200) and started dating the hot chick from the gym (Ram). While it was amazing, I was always in fear of her going crazy on me. She played Taylor Swift and I George Straight. Her Housewives of Jersey, me Seinfeld reruns. Then one day I ran into my old girl (200). She got jokes the hot one didn’t. She finished my sentences and had accurate insights to what was going on in my life. I thought I wanted the hot one (Ram) but at the end of the day my old sweetheart (200) was a better life companion.

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View attachment 3066471

After seven visits to the dealer in the first 16 months for transmission reflash/relearns and a few recalls I too learned to be constantly listening for issues and wondering what would go wrong next with the PW. The 200 is effortless, change the oil, rotate the tires, top off fluids and it keeps going without a lick, well other than hitting every other gas station lol. Like I said, the Sequoia is likely the next add, if the current 200's weren't holding crazy values I'd likely pick another 2019+ up and call it a day but I can't justify a second one at these wild prices.
 
I wasn’t aware of trans issues across the fleet. Most Ram users concur that the 8 spd really transforms the truck, but because of the ratios and not the longevity. It’s a ZF unit that is used in a number of different brands globally. Mine has been flawless and I now appreciate the gained space from a shifter knob. Not dismissing your issues, I too would be frustrated with that many trips to the dealer. I just don’t recall reading of many trans issues in the forums with the current generation of Ram.

I think there is a certain degree of confirmation bias in brand loyalty. Consider the threads on the problems with the 8 speed shifting in the late 200s. Cam tower leaks. Radiator failures. The 200 and Toyota aren’t immune. Similarly, my bias toward Toyota reliability has made me view the Ram as a bigger risk than it actually is. Even the dreaded Hemi Tick seems to be curable by varying oil weight. Which, ironically, we have seen the exact same strategy being used here.
 
[Sorry if TLDR, but here's the full Monty discussion]

Right now we have a 75th Anniversary (2021) Power Wagon on 35s with an AT Summit buildout (see Insta feed for pics), a 2013 Land Cruiser (Mud Avatar image), and a 2004 LX 470. And three kids and a dog. We wanted more space than the 200 which the Ram certainly gives, but it's not a perfect solution. At least not for our missions. The truck can handle five of us for short trips by maxes out on longer ventures. Yeah, we could pack less stuff but the truck gets full fast. To solve that we've been running a two-vehicle (Ram + 200) convoy but that's sixteen cylinders to feed and I don't get to sit next to my wife. $200 fill-ups for the caravan add up.

We operate in three modes: mode 1) me + dog (or + one kid). mode 2) full family + dog. mode 3) full family + kid friend + dog. The only way I can solve all three of those is with a third-row SUV plus a trailer. With something like an Xpedition Voyager we can sleep two on top of the 200, two inside the trailer, and 2-4 on top of the trailer. And without the need to have a ground tent (which then require cots/sleeping pads, etc.). My current game plan is to reconfigure the back of the 200 to skinny up the drawers and allow the semi-permanent rear seats to stay in place. When solo, the drawers stay in and it's just the truck. For all other missions its truck + trailer, either with or without drawers depending upon pax count.

The other big consideration is trail presence. I live at 4,200 ft in the Deschutes National Forest. Mountains and forest service roads abound. My most common trip is to find a peak on a map and try to figure out how to get there. The 200 works great in that mission. The best sites are the ones hardest to get to. The Ram often fails due to width or turning radius. A tight turn-around for the 200 on a shelf road is a no-go in the Ram, requiring a long back-up. Not the end of the world but time consuming. And to be fair, this problem would be compounded with a trailer, but when it's the whole gang we're going to known spots. Recon missions are just me and the boy or me and a buddy. And turning the Ram is compounded when in 4WD. Those published turning circles are for 2WD. Try locking your center and doing tight turns. Same for any other SUV or truck without a center diff. This ended up being a bigger deal for my use than I had imagined. ATRAC and full-time 4WD are much more practical in real-world use than F/R lockers and the swaybar disconnect in the Ram.

And not to get off topic, but the base LX 600 is essentially a two row LC 300. No AHC. No third row. Very similar to what we had with the 2020 Heritage. And at 'only' $88k priced very similarly to the outgoing Land Cruiser. We'd definitely consider that over the new Sequoia if it had row numero tres. You need to move up to the $96k price point to get a third row in the LX 600, diminishing the value proposition for us. Most likely, we'll re-home the Power Wagon, keep the 200 as the 'Overlander', keep the 100 as the 'mule', and then eventually put a new Sequoia in a stall as the family mover. Captains chairs in the middle are another big win for the Seq.

Lastly, the 2004 100 (or 'The Mule' as we fondly refer to it as) has found great service as the 'get it done' rig. Ski bus. Home Depot hauler. Dump runs. Whatever. It's big and (relatively) light. And with 172k on the clock it's not a show queen. Nice to have one horse that can be ridden hard and put away wet. Often times literally on both.

I will say, the Ram is incredibly nice to ride in. Quite. Smooth (at least for a 3/4 ton). Fantastic audio system. Great seats. Etc. The engine is definitely less refined (as is any pushrod mill) and there's also the need to disable MDS with every trip to save the cams (read up on 'Hemi Tick'). But the 'Zed-F' 8-speed is a jewel of a trans and I've had only a single problem in 24,900 miles which was to replace an $8 outside temp sensor. On snow, the 20" extra wheelbase and extra weight make it super stable. Mountain pass travel in any weather is a non-event. I cross the Cascade range summits 60-80 times a year (!!) (30-40 round-trips). Add in 20+ ski days last year and my life is a lot about frozen road time. I've really appreciated the Ram for this. Not that I've ever had a problem with the 200 (or the 100) in the snow, it's just a more 'hands on' experience with a smaller SUV. Capable, but a bit more user participation required. Where sometimes I can feel the 200 getting a little loose, the long Ram drives white roads like it's on dry. Which is true for any other long-wheelbase vehicle. And the AT3W 35's seem perfect for the size/weight of the truck.

In an ideal world we'd have many vehicles, each an expert in their own domain. The real-world doesn't allow this. After living with the Ram for the last 18 months I'm just not sure the things it's really good at has the best alignment with what we need to ask it to do. I think if I were to draw a Venn diagram showing the overlapping circles of our mission needs with the two trucks the 200 would have more shaded area in the middle. Not a perfect solution, but possibly a better solution. Jury is still out, but that's where we're leaning right now.
The lack of center differentials in pickups is part of what pushed me away from them too. If someone could easily swap a 200 series center diff and that one wheel brake/tight turn trick into a gen 2 tundra, that might be something.
 
If you wanna be like Rip on Yellowstone who plows into a row of Harleys with his Dodge truck and then beats up a biker gang with a branding iron, get the Power Wagon.

If you wanna have a very quiet and enjoyable highway experience, possibly getting 19-22 mpg (like me), and not having a worry in the world cuz you're sitting in a solid steel cage, with plenty of room for all your vacation stuff, get the Cruiser.

If you're a millionaire with cash to burn, get both and put tons of fun gear on them and then show us pics.
 
The lack of center differentials in pickups is part of what pushed me away from them too. If someone could easily swap a 200 series center diff and that one wheel brake/tight turn trick into a gen 2 tundra, that might be something.
This is why I’m considering a pickup for the first time in my life with an EV truck. They are full time AWD. I have a deposit on a Rivian R1T, Cyber truck, and Silverado EV. Not the SUVs, R1S or Hummer.

I did own a f250 as an old beater but really only used it to plow and cut wood in my younger days. Other then that my “trucks” have been a J60, 80 series, g500, and the LX570.
 
Don't get me wrong, they are fantastic trucks and if I were to add another truck it'd be a hard toss up between another PW and the Godzilla motor F-250 Tremor. They are known for transmission issues, both the older 6-speed and the new 8-speed and they won't compare to the build quality of the 200.
I like the looks of the Ram Intruder but the MPG is worse then the 200.
This is why I’m considering a pickup for the first time in my life with an EV truck. They are full time AWD. I have a deposit on a Rivian R1T, Cyber truck, and Silverado EV. Not the SUVs, R1S or Hummer.

I did own a f250 as an old beater but really only used it to plow and cut wood in my younger days. Other then that my “trucks” have been a J60, 80 series, g500, and the LX570.
You may already know, but you won’t be towing very far with any of those EV options. I saw a white Hummer Ev yesterday and it was pretty sweet, but the cabin and bed seemed a little small for its gargantuan size.
 
The way I’ve described it to friends is I feel like I broke up with my high school sweetheart (200) and started dating the hot chick from the gym (Ram). While it was amazing, I was always in fear of her going crazy on me. She played Taylor Swift and I George Straight. Her Housewives of Jersey, me Seinfeld reruns. Then one day I ran into my old girl (200). She got jokes the hot one didn’t. She finished my sentences and had accurate insights to what was going on in my life. I thought I wanted the hot one (Ram) but at the end of the day my old sweetheart (200) was a better life companion.

I award you 12 points out of 10; would read your car reviews.
 
FWIW I get slightly better mileage in the Ram than the cruiser. Figure 14-14.5 in the Ram and 13.5-14 in the Cruiser, similar %GVW (both over) and similar roads. The Ram, however, has much longer legs with a larger tank and smaller ‘reserve’. The Ram would get fractional more if I allowed MDS to engage.
 
I never found the MDS to improve economy more than .5-1mpg, I hated the feature.
 
Yeah, it reportedly eats cams and, in my case, the active harmonic balancers that engage with the MDS create a strong resonance in the White Knuckle sliders. Fortunately, it’s easy to disable.
 
I like the looks of the Ram Intruder but the MPG is worse then the 200.

You may already know, but you won’t be towing very far with any of those EV options. I saw a white Hummer Ev yesterday and it was pretty sweet, but the cabin and bed seemed a little small for its gargantuan size.
I won’t do an EV truck until I can get at least 200 mile range towing my camper. Why all my reservations are for the big batteries, which I can’t imagine any being available before late 2024.
 
I won’t do an EV truck until I can get at least 200 mile range towing my camper. Why all my reservations are for the big batteries, which I can’t imagine any being available before late 2024.
Yeah, I seriously considered reserving the Rivian R1S with the max pack but they removed it from options awhile back. I’m not sure even the max pack will give you 200mi. towing range unless it’s light weight towing. TFL did a real world test of the 300mi.+ from Denver to Colorado Springs and it barely made it 90mi. If you’re not going over any mtn. passes or constant hills, it should make it 200mi. with the Max pack but even having to charge with a trailer attached is rarely an ideal situation unless you can find drive through stations like gas station setups.

 

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