I would be curious if the same is the case in your LC with regard to 1st.
LC200 vs. LX570: HP, Torque, and Required Octane Ratings
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I would be curious if the same is the case in your LC with regard to 1st.
Interesting discussion. Especially for a new LC owner who has had 3 Lexus, an Acura MDX (2014) and a Land Rover over the past 15 or so years. All of which wanted me to use 91 or better so I did. I actually like the fact that the LC (ours is a 2016) can use 87. My emotional response at the pump is that after a fill up I can essentially get a free drink at Starbucks with the savings. So for my normal, relaxed, around-town driving I use 87 (Shell Plus). When I tow I am putting Shell V-Power Nitro in it in part for the additives and in part because it makes me "feel better". None of that may make sense.
FWIW I noticed zero difference in different octane grades when towing out to Yellowstone and back this month. I used 87 the entire time (even in the mountains where 85 octane is "regular" and 87 is "plus" or "premium") and 91 a couple times when the only options were 85 and 91. Obviously I didn't dyno the vehicle so my results are anecdotal but I would challenge anyone who thinks 87 vs 91 in the LC makes any difference to do a blind test and have your spouse randomly fill the tank with one or the other each time you stop and then see if you can tell the difference better than 50% of the time.
I've had the same experience when towing with the LX. 87, 89, or 91 = no difference in mileage or "felt" available power.
Oh, and when I said using 91 when towing made me "feel" better, it had nothing to do with feeling anything different when driving. I'm not sure I would feel a difference anyway. It was more of the "it's more expensive and Shell claims all these cool additives so it must be better" kind of feeling. 
The shell V-Power Nitro + does make a difference due to better detergents (among other claimed differences). Cleaner engine = happier engine.
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"Gasoline retailers must meet the high TOP TIER™ standards with all grades of gasoline to be approved by the automakers as providing TOP TIER™ Detergent Gasoline."
So there's no reason to buy premium for detergents - even 87 octane at BP, Shell, Exxon, Conoco, and even Costco already has the same level of detergents to qualify as Top Tier. (Now maybe Shell V-Power Nitro has even more and should be called Top Top Tier?) Also, there are 46 companies which meet the "Top Tier Detergent Gas" (of which Shell is one).
Retailers
If it mentally makes you feel better, go ahead and buy premium for your LC. However there's no benefit over regular and personally I'd save the $300-500 per year you'll spend to use premium. That said I normally opt for gas from one of the top tier stations myself, though at 87 octane.
So there's no reason to buy premium for detergents - even 87 octane at BP, Shell, Exxon, Conoco, and even Costco already has the same level of detergents to qualify as Top Tier. (Now maybe Shell V-Power Nitro has even more and should be called Top Top Tier?) Also, there are 46 companies which meet the "Top Tier Detergent Gas" (of which Shell is one).
Retailers
If it mentally makes you feel better, go ahead and buy premium for your LC. However there's no benefit over regular and personally I'd save the $300-500 per year you'll spend to use premium. That said I normally opt for gas from one of the top tier stations myself, though at 87 octane.
I posted this in a previous thread about octane and Shell V-Power Nitro+ but I'll throw it in here since it seems replace the. It's an email from Shell in response to my query...
ALL SHELL GASOLINE PRODUCTS (regardless of octane rating) PASS THE “Automotive Manufacturers Specification for Top Tier performance” ( http://www.toptiergas.com/retailers.html. ) Top Tier gas is a formal certification program originated by major auto manufacturers like BMW, Mercedes, Honda, Toyota, GM, etc. (not by the oil companies). See this link for all information: http://www.toptiergas.com/
In essence, Top Tier certified gas is gasoline (whether regular or premium) that has more detergent additives in it than required by EPA regulations. These higher detergent levels can help keep engines cleaner and thus run more efficiently and hopefully require less maintenance (dirty spark plugs, valves, etc). The auto manufacturers originally started this certification program to help deal with the difference between some of the lower quality/dirtier gasoline products produced in North America.
So – bottom line: this is not something originated by the gasoline companies. Rather, it is something that was originated by auto makers (for some of the reasons stated above). If you happen to have a high performance car, a European car, or even a car that specifically recommends the use of Top Tier gasoline in the Owner’s Manual, then you should probably use it. But again, please review the Top Tier Gas criteria (and what it means) at the Top Tier website: http://www.toptiergas.com/
Shell product AKI Octane ratings depend on the region, altitude and few other factors – but you should see them posted on the gas station dispenser label for all three grades. So, for example: our main grade octane rating is usually 87 (can be 85/86 at higher altitudes), V-Power NiTRO+/premium is between 91-93, and our mid grade lies between main grade and V-Power/premium.
In addition, all Shell stations should now be offering the “V-Power NiTRO+” premium gasoline product - which, again, is the highest octane product that Shell offers commercially.
We also must make note here that all Shell stations are independently owned and operated. And because Shell stations are all independently owned and operated locally, we would not have a listing of which stations offer which grades of fuel, etc.
In the USA, gasoline products are specified by AKI (Anti Knock Index) Octane ratings, and this is the Octane Number that is posted at US Pumps. AKI Octane is the average of the RON (Research Octane Number) and the MON (Motor Octane Number) – in fact, the actual formula is: AKI=RON+MON/2.
What this means in practical terms is that RON values are higher than AKI Octane values (as well as MON values,). Specifically, the RON number is usually about 5 numbers HIGHER than the AKI value, while the MON number is usually about 10 numbers LOWER than the RON value. (These values are measured in laboratory engine tests that use nearly identical single cylinder engines, but the two tests are run under different conditions).
So, for example: in the US, if a gasoline has an AKI Octane Rating of 93 posted at the pump, this would mean that the “RON” value of that product would be approximately 98, and the “MON” value of that product would be approximately 88.
Shell Premium V-Power NiTRO+ gasoline in the US has an AKI value between 91-93 (again, the exact AKI value depends on state and regional requirements). This would mean that the “RON” value for Shell Premium V-Power NiTRO+ is approx. 96 – 98.
Using premium fuel (91 to 93 AKI) burned in an engine that only requires 87 or 89 octane fuel will not produce more power or better fuel economy (even though there is an “expectation” of better fuel mileage when using a 93 octane fuel in an engine that only requires an 87 or 89).
Of course, if your vehicle does specify premium/93 octane fuel, then yes - we would recommend the use of that grade, which should then improve the mileage of your vehicle.
But remember - if your Owner’s Manual stipulates the use of an AKI Octane 87 product,then an 87, 89, 91, 92, or 93 octane fuel would meet the engine OEM’s requirements (of course, anything lower - like 86 octane - would not). And just to be clear - if your vehicle does indeed require a 93 octane fuel, then you should not use a gasoline product lower than a 93 octane
While ALL Shell gasoline grades contain the patented nitrogen enriched detergent package, Shell V-Power NiTRO+ Premium gasoline contains the highest concentration of the cleaning system (approx. 7X the amount of detergent required by the EPA). In fact, the 87 grade has approx. 50% of the amount of nitrogen enriched detergent add pack as the Premium V-Power NiTRO+ product. That would also mean that the mid-grade would have approx. 75% of the amount in the V-Power NiTRO+ product, etc.
ALL SHELL GASOLINE PRODUCTS (regardless of octane rating) PASS THE “Automotive Manufacturers Specification for Top Tier performance” ( http://www.toptiergas.com/retailers.html. ) Top Tier gas is a formal certification program originated by major auto manufacturers like BMW, Mercedes, Honda, Toyota, GM, etc. (not by the oil companies). See this link for all information: http://www.toptiergas.com/
In essence, Top Tier certified gas is gasoline (whether regular or premium) that has more detergent additives in it than required by EPA regulations. These higher detergent levels can help keep engines cleaner and thus run more efficiently and hopefully require less maintenance (dirty spark plugs, valves, etc). The auto manufacturers originally started this certification program to help deal with the difference between some of the lower quality/dirtier gasoline products produced in North America.
So – bottom line: this is not something originated by the gasoline companies. Rather, it is something that was originated by auto makers (for some of the reasons stated above). If you happen to have a high performance car, a European car, or even a car that specifically recommends the use of Top Tier gasoline in the Owner’s Manual, then you should probably use it. But again, please review the Top Tier Gas criteria (and what it means) at the Top Tier website: http://www.toptiergas.com/
Shell product AKI Octane ratings depend on the region, altitude and few other factors – but you should see them posted on the gas station dispenser label for all three grades. So, for example: our main grade octane rating is usually 87 (can be 85/86 at higher altitudes), V-Power NiTRO+/premium is between 91-93, and our mid grade lies between main grade and V-Power/premium.
In addition, all Shell stations should now be offering the “V-Power NiTRO+” premium gasoline product - which, again, is the highest octane product that Shell offers commercially.
We also must make note here that all Shell stations are independently owned and operated. And because Shell stations are all independently owned and operated locally, we would not have a listing of which stations offer which grades of fuel, etc.
In the USA, gasoline products are specified by AKI (Anti Knock Index) Octane ratings, and this is the Octane Number that is posted at US Pumps. AKI Octane is the average of the RON (Research Octane Number) and the MON (Motor Octane Number) – in fact, the actual formula is: AKI=RON+MON/2.
What this means in practical terms is that RON values are higher than AKI Octane values (as well as MON values,). Specifically, the RON number is usually about 5 numbers HIGHER than the AKI value, while the MON number is usually about 10 numbers LOWER than the RON value. (These values are measured in laboratory engine tests that use nearly identical single cylinder engines, but the two tests are run under different conditions).
So, for example: in the US, if a gasoline has an AKI Octane Rating of 93 posted at the pump, this would mean that the “RON” value of that product would be approximately 98, and the “MON” value of that product would be approximately 88.
Shell Premium V-Power NiTRO+ gasoline in the US has an AKI value between 91-93 (again, the exact AKI value depends on state and regional requirements). This would mean that the “RON” value for Shell Premium V-Power NiTRO+ is approx. 96 – 98.
Using premium fuel (91 to 93 AKI) burned in an engine that only requires 87 or 89 octane fuel will not produce more power or better fuel economy (even though there is an “expectation” of better fuel mileage when using a 93 octane fuel in an engine that only requires an 87 or 89).
Of course, if your vehicle does specify premium/93 octane fuel, then yes - we would recommend the use of that grade, which should then improve the mileage of your vehicle.
But remember - if your Owner’s Manual stipulates the use of an AKI Octane 87 product,then an 87, 89, 91, 92, or 93 octane fuel would meet the engine OEM’s requirements (of course, anything lower - like 86 octane - would not). And just to be clear - if your vehicle does indeed require a 93 octane fuel, then you should not use a gasoline product lower than a 93 octane
While ALL Shell gasoline grades contain the patented nitrogen enriched detergent package, Shell V-Power NiTRO+ Premium gasoline contains the highest concentration of the cleaning system (approx. 7X the amount of detergent required by the EPA). In fact, the 87 grade has approx. 50% of the amount of nitrogen enriched detergent add pack as the Premium V-Power NiTRO+ product. That would also mean that the mid-grade would have approx. 75% of the amount in the V-Power NiTRO+ product, etc.
When I was in high school I was a lineman and our towns small FBO (airport) downtown. One thing I had to do each morning was bleed off any gathered condensation out of the fuel trucks. After about three seconds, straight avgas 110 would pour out. This was before someone had the great idea that corn in our fuel would save us all.......
So, I'm just a high school kid who'd rather save my money for beer, Van Halen cassettes and chicks. So I ran a lot of avgas through my 76' Olds Cutlass for what turned out to be a very brief period of time.
That stuff was so rich my car was blowing blue smoke in no time.
So be careful with that high test stuff?
So, I'm just a high school kid who'd rather save my money for beer, Van Halen cassettes and chicks. So I ran a lot of avgas through my 76' Olds Cutlass for what turned out to be a very brief period of time.
That stuff was so rich my car was blowing blue smoke in no time.
So be careful with that high test stuff?
Ok. My LX specified premium fuel (much debate if it is really required or makes any difference). Frankly, a couple hp / tq gain on prem vs regular grade is meaningless in my opinion. But with the higher detergent levels in the nito +, how would this not be better for a cleaner running engine, overall? Seems there really is a difference among top tier fuels. Even among the same brand (shell prem vs lower shell grades).
When you take a shower, do you wash your hair twice (or three times) or just once?
If there's enough detergent in the fuel to keep the injectors and valves clean and prevent deposits from forming, then additional detergent doesn't do anything. I don't believe the additional detergents hurt anything (unlike excessive additives in motor oil which can actually harm your engine), but if it's unnecessary why not save the $? Here's my math:
- 15,000 miles/year @ 15 MPG = 1,000 gallons of fuel
- The Shell station near me is $2.59 for regular, $3.49 for premium
- Using regular (87) over premium (93) I save $0.90/gal x 1,000 gal or $900 per year
/removes MBA hat
What is not known for certain is if the "top tier" detergent levels are sufficient. The shell data presented in the Engneering Explained video from my prior post seems compelling. It claims that next leading brands do not compare to shell nitro +. It is not clear if the comparator is top tier or not. these data are coming from shell, and they would have a vested interest it data that makes their product look better than competitors. These are all valid points. Not sure if data exists from an independent lab. If so I'd like to see it. But with that said, I am ok paying a bit extra for the peace of mind. A couple hundred a year more in fuel costs is worth it to me.
It seems to me that LC/LX owners are not the type to wine and moan about fuel economy. Those that do have made a mistake and purchased the wrong vehicle. Low fuels costs are not what these vehicles are about. Capability, longevity, durability are salient features of these vehicles. I'm willing to spend a little extra in the hopes of enhancing these key benefits as i plan to own my LX for many miles.
Similar arguments can be made about preventative maintenance vs fix only what breaks. To each their own, but I personally err on the side of preventative maintenance.
It seems to me that LC/LX owners are not the type to wine and moan about fuel economy. Those that do have made a mistake and purchased the wrong vehicle. Low fuels costs are not what these vehicles are about. Capability, longevity, durability are salient features of these vehicles. I'm willing to spend a little extra in the hopes of enhancing these key benefits as i plan to own my LX for many miles.
Similar arguments can be made about preventative maintenance vs fix only what breaks. To each their own, but I personally err on the side of preventative maintenance.
At my local Shell it .20 off Tues plus Shell currently gives you .10 off every time you put in 8+ gal so with .30 off on Tues I pay no more than mid grade (~2.20/gal) so I don't worry about it. If and when gas prices go stratospheric again I will re-evaluate.
I only wash my hair once, but I use Shell V-Power Nitro+ to do it -- it's fantastic for split ends....
Yes we are. Have you see all of the threads dealing with gas lately? The count ALMOST rivals the silly tire selection threads that keep coming up. I pose that we (Americans) like to gripe.
There was a video done by an investigative journalism team up here in Canada that speaks to this. They dyno'd a car on "low tier" gas, emptied the fuel and dyno'd it again on premium.
Basically it says that on modern vehicles the computers compensate for differing octane value and adjusts the performance accordingly, the HP and torque were virtually identical.
It does not speak to the detergent/cleaning values that some members have spoken of.
I don't post this as being for or against higher octane fuels, I just thought it was an interesting study.
Basically it says that on modern vehicles the computers compensate for differing octane value and adjusts the performance accordingly, the HP and torque were virtually identical.
It does not speak to the detergent/cleaning values that some members have spoken of.
I don't post this as being for or against higher octane fuels, I just thought it was an interesting study.
Markuson
SILVER Star
I have personally put this question to rest...even though I *always* used 91+ in my 100.
I just completed a more-than 6000 mile road trip...including hot deserts, high mountains, Ouray...and everything between San Diego and Oshkosh, Wisconsin...USING REGULAR for the entire trip:
Verdict?
Identical MPG to a near-identical, 5000 mile trip only 3 months earlier.
ZERO difference with mileage
ZERO difference in perception of power
ZERO diff at idle, or minimal gas pedal on incline
ZERO knocking
So for me? This question is now in my "answered" column...and I'm enjoying saving about $6 per tank!
M
I just completed a more-than 6000 mile road trip...including hot deserts, high mountains, Ouray...and everything between San Diego and Oshkosh, Wisconsin...USING REGULAR for the entire trip:
Verdict?
Identical MPG to a near-identical, 5000 mile trip only 3 months earlier.
ZERO difference with mileage
ZERO difference in perception of power
ZERO diff at idle, or minimal gas pedal on incline
ZERO knocking
So for me? This question is now in my "answered" column...and I'm enjoying saving about $6 per tank!
M
Assuming any particular vehicle can get additional power out of higher octane fuel the benefits will not show them selves immediately. Vehicles do not have any direct way to analyze the octane rating of the fuel. The ECU will adjust timing over time until the pre-nock sensor detects pre-detonation at which time it will back off some and begin the process again. So if you have been running 87 octane and then change to a higher octane it may take a few tanks of gas for your vehicle to adjust. This is assuming that the vehicle is capable of getting any benefit from higher octane fuel which is influenced by engine design, temperature, air density and probably other factors. Additionally, altitude (air density) has an impact on timing which is why mountain states (free states) in the US typically offer lower octant fuels (85 octane).
Finally, different octane fuels do not by themselves have different energy levels. So do not make the mistake of thinking 91 octane fuel is some how more powerful than 87. If there is any actual performance gains it is due to the engine being able to delay detonation of the fuel until a more optimal time during the fuel compression stage. If the vehicle is already able to detonate the fuel at an optimal time with lower octane fuel then there is no gain to be had.
Finally, different octane fuels do not by themselves have different energy levels. So do not make the mistake of thinking 91 octane fuel is some how more powerful than 87. If there is any actual performance gains it is due to the engine being able to delay detonation of the fuel until a more optimal time during the fuel compression stage. If the vehicle is already able to detonate the fuel at an optimal time with lower octane fuel then there is no gain to be had.
Oh my.......
