K&N Air filter for SuperCharger?

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yeah, it is a good debate, I just wanted to clarify when I hear people (or advertisers) claim their air filter gives you more horsepower

I posted some real tests that show both an increase in airflow and more power (individual results may vary). The FTC goes after companies that make false claims. K&N has been around for a long time.

(than pay me to tell you to remove the filter and get even more power!!LOL)

Removing the air filter completely will give you more power (Though it may not be enough to knock you down into the next bracket). Very bad for the engine though. Gotta be alot worse than running a K&N on a dusty trail. Think about the large particulate material you find in the engine bay... No need to pay you for that info though. If they ask me I'll tell 'em for free.

its bad advertising and makes people who run them argue that they now have more power.


There is no argument. Facts are facts. Unless you are willing to produce comments other than rhetoric then you can't insist on being right. Gains may be minimal, but nevertheless they are gains. If you make other mods then the gains will likely be more substantial.


anyone ever do a tune up and have the "seat of the pants" feel of more power?! exactlly, you may have even done a new air filter @ the time too.

Just My 2 cents

Poo poo ;p
 
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I've seen the ads, I've done the tests myself. I've even discussed it with several tuners of vw/audis. One of the big VW tuners got -6hp on a "up to 12hp" gain intake setup. I see no measureable difference on the dyno that can't be attributed to something else.


Scott Justusson

There you go. The stock air filter sytem had better flow than the aftermarket. I'm sure that isn't the only situation where it has happened. But, it goes to show that airflow matters. If they got -6 HP then obviously the aftermarket system had issues. The issues were not that the paper had better flow than the gauze. there are other deltas at play in that situation.

Facts are facts. Post your tests. I have posted 2 3rd party tests. One that shows better flow and the other a significant gain in HP.

:cheers:
 
Kenny, nobody is arguing that an intake kit will give more power. They are arguing about the stock replacement filters made by K&N....
 
Chip Foose, there is an authority. The guy draws cars for a living.

Is that all you know about Chip Foose. What about the rest of his biography? Maybe you missed a little of his experience there.


http://www.chipfoose.com/profile.aspx?LinkID=tn6


Chip's Biography:
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In a relatively short career, Chip Foose has created a legacy of designs and accomplishments that are well beyond his years. Chip was born and raised in Santa Barbara California and automobiles were definitely in his blood. Chip's first job was working for his father's company where Chip specialized in project design. By age twelve, Chip already had five years experience under his belt, and had also painted his first car; a Porsche 356.Early on, a chance meeting from Alex Tremulus, the designer of the "Tucker", was actually Chip's motivation to attend Art Center, where he majored in automotive product design and graduated in 1990 with honors.
Chip's career profile is staggering; in 1986 he was Staff Designer/ Fabricator for the Asha Corporation, eventually becoming director of design in 1989. Chip was responsible for conceptualizing new proprietary ideas and fabrication of prototypes for the O.E.M.'s
Other work has included: Stehrenberger Design as an automotive designer, creating colored illustrations and conceptual models, Baker Sportronics, as chief designer and fabricator of both models and prototypes of electric vehicles to be used in the NFL and NBL, and of course, going to work with his father and Project Design, designing and building street rods, customs, studio vehicles and show cars for films such as Blade Runner, Robo Cop, and Gone in 60 Seconds, which featured "Elinor".
November 1990 brought about the beginning of a relationship with Boyd Coddington and Hot Rods by Boyd, becoming a full time position in 1993, which lead to Managing Director where Chip eventually became the President of Hot Rods by Boyd. Chip, who is widely acclaimed for his "Boyd Look" design and creative skills, was responsible for many internationally known vehicles such as: Roadster, Sportstar, Boydster I and II, and Boyd Air to name a few.
Chip's venture with Boyd however, ended in 1998. At this time Chip and his wife Lynne started their Huntington Beach, California based company Foose Design, an automotive and product design Development Company. His company specializes in illustration, graphics, ideation model making, surfacing and complete construction of automobiles and automotive related products. These products are available to private individuals, television, film and the automobile manufacturers.
In November of 1997, Chip was inducted into the Hot Rod Hall of Fame at Peterson Publishing's 50th anniversary held at the Specialty Equipment Market Association (SEMA) trade show in Las Vegas, Nevada. This induction made history for Chip, being the youngest member ever inducted into the Hot Rod Hall of Fame at the age of 31.
In 1998, Chip was honored at the SMRA banquet and was the first recipient of the Good Guys Trendsetter Award, once again creating another historic moment in the Hot Rod industry.
In 1999, Chip won the prestigious AMBR (America's Most Beautiful Roadster) Award at the 50th Anniversary of the Grand National Roadster Show with Fred Warren's "Shock Wave". Similarly, in 2000 Chip won the AMBR again with Chuck Svatos' "0032". Overall, Chip has been involved with six different AMBR winners, including the 1995 winner the "Smoothster", the 1996 winner "Boydster", the 2001 winner "Impact" (designed by Chip and finished by Barry White), and the 2003 winner "Boydster II' (designed by Chip and finished by Bobby Alloway).
The new millennium also meant new endeavors for Chip. In January of 2000 Chip signed a licensing agreement with MHT Luxury Alloys, allowing Chip to start the production of Foose Wheels.
The Millennium was proving to be quite prosperous. Chip won the coveted 2002 "Ridler" Award at the 50th Anniversary Show of the Detroit Autorama with Bob and Wes Rydell's 35 Chevy Master, otherwise known as the "Grand Master". The year of 2002 was very exciting for Chip as he was inducted into the Darryl Starbird Rod & Custom Car Museum Hall of Fame. The end of the year closed with a bang for Chip and his highly acclaimed staff at Foose Design when the Discovery Channel filmed a documentary, which aired repetitively on the TLC network in March of 2003. The documentary featured several of Chip's award winning vehicles, but the show's focus was to give the viewers a chance to witness Chip's visionary talents come to life with a re-design of the 2002 Thunderbird. The redesigned Thunderbird otherwise known as the "Speedbird" received another award for Chip, as it made its debut at the 2002 SEMA show in Las Vegas, where Chip was presented the "Best of Show" award from Ford Motor Company.
The year 2003 was equally exciting for Chip. He was honored once again with an induction into the Grand National Roadster Show Hall of Fame. This year was filled with enthusiasm, especially when Chip received a second "Ridler" award at the Detroit Autorama, which featured Ron Whitesides 34' Mercury Stallion. 2003 came to its pinnacle when Chip embarked upon a new venture, designing clothing and accessories featuring many of his award winning cars.
Throughout the course of Chip's career he has been honored to receive the Good Guys Street Rod of the Year Award seven times, and his cars include: 1990 a 32 two door sedan, 1991 a 29 two door sedan and 40 delivery for Dick Mattiolli, 1995 a three window coupe for Bud Simes, 1997 a 39 Chevy Coupe built by Troy Trepanior of "Rad Ride by Troy" named the "Predator", 1999 a 54 belvedere also built by troy at "Rad Rides by Troy" named the "Sniper", and last but not least, in 2001 Chip received the Good Guys Street Rod of the Year Award featuring the "Grand Master".
2004 proved to be as exhilarating as the past years, Chip has started a television series called "Overhaulin", which began airing on the TLC network late April of 2004, please check your local programming for details.
2005 opened with Chip being inducted into the San Francisco Rod and Custom Motorcycle Hall of Fame.
Chip currently serves as the Vice Chairman of the Progeria Research Foundation, California Chapter.

Sounds like a guy who may know a few things...
 
1) Jamesobi- Out of the three cites you posted, two included the K&N as part and parcel of a cold air intake, which is completely inclusive.

The first also cited other modifications such as headers and other exhaust modifications.

The last was a flow bench comparision which tells you what the filter flows, not if the engine it is put on will make more power.

The flow bench comparison told us that the K&N had better flow and suggested that it may contribute to power in higher ouput applications. This doesn't support the thesis that K&Ns are the answer for lighting a fire under the seat of your 5000lb vehicle but it does suggest that a K&N may contirbute to an overall program of air flow modifications for total gains that are more than insignificant. No guarantees, just the basis of fact.
 
I would agree that the K&N cotton does flow easier than a similar number of square inches of paper, I have seen pics through a microscope of the cotton gauze compared to paper and the cotton is wide open,

But the real question is though does the OEM paper filter really cause much restriction? the FZJ80 OEM paper filter is a beast, it has a lot more surface area than most other filters on the road, even those for larger more air hungry engines. and interestingly enough the OEM paper has a lot more surface area than the K&N that replaces it (see pic) this surface area difference if it does not completely offset the flow abilities of the two materials at least makes a major dent.

My 96 came with a K&N, I replaced it with paper, no loss in power,

pic, notice that not only each pleat on the OEM filter wider but there are a lot more of them, I did not measure the two but I would not be suprised if the OEM filter has 2 or 3 times the surface area of te K&N, does the K&N gauze flow twice as much air per square inch? it needs to just to break even.
airfilter.webp
 
Did I mention that I tossed my K&N in the dustbin?



















:flipoff2:
 
I would agree that the K&N cotton does flow easier than a similar number of square inches of paper, I have seen pics through a microscope of the cotton gauze compared to paper and the cotton is wide open,

But the real question is though does the OEM paper filter really cause much restriction? the FZJ80 OEM paper filter is a beast, it has a lot more surface area than most other filters on the road, even those for larger more air hungry engines. and interestingly enough the OEM paper has a lot more surface area than the K&N that replaces it (see pic) this surface area difference if it does not completely offset the flow abilities of the two materials at least makes a major dent.

My 96 came with a K&N, I replaced it with paper, no loss in power,

pic, notice that not only each pleat on the OEM filter wider but there are a lot more of them, I did not measure the two but I would not be suprised if the OEM filter has 2 or 3 times the surface area of te K&N, does the K&N gauze flow twice as much air per square inch? it needs to just to break even.

I agree that the larger size of the OEM filter should help with flow. It may even compare to or outflow the K&N because of this delta. I would be interested in seeing a test. I may even go to the track and do the testing myself. For what ever it will be worth. 4 runs with each filter and then compare average elapsed times. Not as scientific as some other methods but it should be interesting to see the results.

Obviously the OEM filter is quality and I never doubted that. It is apparent to me that with everything else the same (surface area of the media) that the gauze will outflow the paper.
 
I agree that the larger size of the OEM filter should help with flow. It may even compare to or outflow the K&N because of this delta. I would be interested in seeing a test. I may even go to the track and do the testing myself. For what ever it will be worth. 4 runs with each filter and then compare average elapsed times. Not as scientific as some other methods but it should be interesting to see the results.

Obviously the OEM filter is quality and I never doubted that. It is apparent to me that with everything else the same (surface area of the media) that the gauze will outflow the paper.

yes if they were the same surface area the gauze does flow better, could the IFZ-FE make use of this extra ar flow from this hypothetical high surface area K&N?

I too would be interested in seeing a test, if you are %100 on road driver and there are any real performance gains by the K&N for the 80 series then you could weight the merits of each filter on dirt intake vs performance, or possibly switch filters for varying conditions.

If you do this test please let us know the resuts, on the test day keep track of temperature, humidy and other factors throuout the test day, an A-B-A-B test would be great :cheers:
 
I am going to look into it. However, I do agree with switching to the OEM on the trails.

My results from the test to be performed may not apply to others. My exhaust is very free flowing. From what I have learned over the years power is maximized when restriction is freed up on both ends, otherwise you get bottlenecks and the full benefit of mods may not be realized.

Also, since the 1FZ-FE has a power band in the higher RPM's headers are ideal. Exhaust manifolds are fine in the lower RPM ranges but lose efficiency at higher RPMs. If I see any gains from the use of a K&N it may or may not apply to the same motor with a more restrictive exhaust system.
:cheers:
 
I have never done dyno testing on the 80, but I have done (as have many friends) many dyno pulls on sports cars (mostly turbos) and there have been very noticable HP improvements just by replacing the stock filter with a high flow unit.

A good example is my latest autocross vehicle a 96 AWD Turbo DSM. It comes stock with a 2.0 liter Mitsubishi turbo/intercooled 210 hp engine. We logged a 12 hp gain (at the wheels) just by switching the stock intake out and putting on a K&N. Once all the mods were done (before the 2.4 stroker engine) it was putting down 302hp to the wheels. We noticed a 18hp loss (at the wheels) when we stuck the stock intake back on. Throttle response was also improved with the K&N and new hard intake pipe.

On my Toyota Supra Turbo there were also noticable gains in HP when switching to a high flow intake. Same goes for my 300ZX, Integra, RX-7, and every other sports car I've had.

There you go again, you are using the term filter and intake interchangably. You keep citing horsepower gains when changing the INTAKE AND THE FILTER. You cannot claim the filter is reposible for the increase in horsepower you have changed the intake at the same time.

I will ask a very simple straightforward question. Do you have any tests where the only change made was the stock FILTER for the K&N?
 
Did I mention that I tossed my K&N in the dustbin?
 
Do I get another if I throw it away again?.....:D
 
Off to dig that worthless piece of s*** out so that I can toss it back where it belongs........
 
Did I mention that I tossed my K&N in the dustbin?


Keyboard soaked on that one!!







So why would someone run a K&N on the road only??!! isnt there quite a bit of dust and dirt on highways and blowing around when you pass/follow someone?

So wouldnt you get the fine abraisives on road and still trash your engine? you probably only drive off road 2-3 % of your actuall mileage on your vehicle overall.

I think it would be stupid to change to OEM for offroad only. thats not just my 2 cents but common sense.
 
Have you ever spent a week at Moab? Have you ever been in the middle of a large group that is traversing a long stretch of unpaved road?


One day of that would expose you to a year's worth of hiway operation.
 
Keyboard soaked on that one!!







So why would someone run a K&N on the road only??!! isnt there quite a bit of dust and dirt on highways and blowing around when you pass/follow someone?

So wouldnt you get the fine abraisives on road and still trash your engine? you probably only drive off road 2-3 % of your actuall mileage on your vehicle overall.

I think it would be stupid to change to OEM for offroad only. thats not just my 2 cents but common sense.

Friend, its like this. I have used these filters for 15 years and put mileage on my vehicles into the 200s(still running like champs when they were sold). I've known others who use them, and I do extensive research and I have never heard anyone make the association of their motor blowing up, falling apart, or otherwise failing to perform because they were using a K&N. In fact, the FTC is very overbearing when it comes to consumer fraud and would put K&N out of business in a heart beat if it was destroying motors. Now we may all get a little dirt in our motors, but it takes significant contamination and the neglect of oil changes to effectively destroy a motor.

Dirt isn't something you want to poor down your throttle body, but please develop some understanding before you claim that I do not have common sense. You are wrong. Google is a wonderful thing. It essentially makes having to go to the library to search out articles and books obsolete. You never have to be ignorant about anything on which you speak again.:cheers:
 

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