Builds Isuzu 4HE1TC into FJ62 (10 Viewers)

[astr]

Hey Andy - did you get a tcase with that A442F? If you did, wondering if you wouldn't mind attempting to mate up the TC from the A442 to the back of the AW450 (without the spacer)? I have a feeling they might be a direct fit...

-Phil

I did get the T-case and I would like to try the A442 Tcase on the back of the AW450. It will require swapping the A442F output shaft into the AW450 as the AW450 shaft is larger in diameter and has a higher spline count than the A442F output shaft and therefore won't fit the T-case. My guess is that you will have to swap output shafts and T-case adapters but none of the added fabrication nonsense will b e required.

Phil, I plan on trying what you suggest, but only after I finish the A440F/AW450 hybrid. I've already got three transmissions torn apart and I am having a hard enough time keeping all the parts and pieces straight so don't want to add to the confusion.

 

[AppleTech]

I did get the T-case and I would like to try the A442 Tcase on the back of the AW450. It will require swapping the A442F output shaft into the AW450 as the AW450 shaft is larger in diameter and has a higher spline count than the A442F output shaft and therefore won't fit the T-case. My guess is that you will have to swap output shafts and T-case adapters but none of the added fabrication nonsense will b e required.

Phil, I plan on trying what you suggest, but only after I finish the A440F/AW450 hybrid. I've already got three transmissions torn apart and I am having a hard enough time keeping all the parts and pieces straight so don't want to add to the confusion.

Cool - I may get to it before you, but your answers help quite a bit. Thanks Andy! Good luck on getting everything back together.

-Phil

 

[aurunner18]

Electronics

I spoke to a friend of mine about the electronics problem, he asked if the ECU for the engine was separate from the transmission controller. Does anyone have this knowledge?

 

[AppleTech]

I spoke to a friend of mine about the electronics problem, he asked if the ECU for the engine was separate from the transmission controller. Does anyone have this knowledge?

They are separate boxes with separate wiring harnesses.

-Phil

 

[astr]

They are separate boxes with separate wiring harnesses.

-Phil

I know that is true on the NPR truck but is it also true on the 80s?

 

[AppleTech]

I know that is true on the NPR truck but is it also true on the 80s?

I'd check my truck, but it's the wrong year.

-Phil

 

[Discyota]

Problems for us 80 series guys,

I was checking under my hood today, and where that starter is on the isuzu motor will interfere with the steering shaft and gas pedal. Thats no good at all. The only easy solution I see to fitting it into an 80 is if the 4HE1TC is shorter than a 1FZ. ASTR, could you please get two measurements for us 80 folks, front of fan to back of block, and then front of fan to back of the starter. With these measurements, and the ones you took earlier, it will be pretty easy to determine if the isuzu motor could be mounted a bit foreward, and avoid this starter issue, or if it will be bigger problems involving bellhousing adapters and what not.

 

[astr]

I'd check my truck, but it's the wrong year.

-Phil

Post #122 in this thread has photo of the AW450's TCM.

 

[astr]

Problems for us 80 series guys,

I was checking under my hood today, and where that starter is on the isuzu motor will interfere with the steering shaft and gas pedal. Thats no good at all. The only easy solution I see to fitting it into an 80 is if the 4HE1TC is shorter than a 1FZ. ASTR, could you please get two measurements for us 80 folks, front of fan to back of block, and then front of fan to back of the starter. With these measurements, and the ones you took earlier, it will be pretty easy to determine if the isuzu motor could be mounted a bit foreward, and avoid this starter issue, or if it will be bigger problems involving bellhousing adapters and what not.

All the info that your looking for is in Post #255 of this thread. I think it will confirm that there will be an interference problem. I believe somehow the starter will have to be relocated. I don't have a solution and haven't really worked on this aspect yet. I'm hoping a voice will tell me the solution in my sleep

 

[Discyota]

I have an idea for you, I am also trying to figure something out before I buy one of these motors myself. Cheapest and easiest thing I can fathom would be a bellhousing spacer, a crankshaft spacer, and a bit of machine and weld work. Basically, measure the depth the relief for starter goes into the back of the motor, make a spacer that same thickness that is identical to the bellhousing. This spacer will have the relief cut into it for the starter except it will mount the starter at the 7 or 8 o'clock position, facing the same direction. This will let you use the same starter, just mount it from the bottom, on the drivers side, away from the driveshaft and exhaust. Once this is done, you will need to have a relief cut into your current bellhousing for the new starter location, and possibly welding to brace it and add boltholes where old ones were lost and new ones are formed. I dont know what welding to cast aluminum is like, but it might need to be heat treated after. Now make a crankshaft spacer to space out your flywheel the exact same length that the bellhousing spacer will bring the trans out. My guess is that this would all cost about $1000-1500 from the right guy.

Very similar in concept to this kit Overview

but with a thicker main spacer, and a thinner crank spacer. His parts are the thickness they are to make up the difference between the chevy and isuzu trans dimensions.


I dont know about the 60, but on the 80 series, after I measured up, it looks like a 4" body lift or some type of starter relocation. I personally will spend an extra $1000 to keep away from a body lift.

Good luck, this may be your biggest hurdle.

 

[astr]

I have an idea for you, I am also trying to figure something out before I buy one of these motors myself. Cheapest and easiest thing I can fathom would be a bellhousing spacer, a crankshaft spacer, and a bit of machine and weld work. Basically, measure the depth the relief for starter goes into the back of the motor, make a spacer that same thickness that is identical to the bellhousing. This spacer will have the relief cut into it for the starter except it will mount the starter at the 7 or 8 o'clock position, facing the same direction. This will let you use the same starter, just mount it from the bottom, on the drivers side, away from the driveshaft and exhaust. Once this is done, you will need to have a relief cut into your current bellhousing for the new starter location, and possibly welding to brace it and add boltholes where old ones were lost and new ones are formed. I dont know what welding to cast aluminum is like, but it might need to be heat treated after. Now make a crankshaft spacer to space out your flywheel the exact same length that the bellhousing spacer will bring the trans out. My guess is that this would all cost about $1000-1500 from the right guy.

Very similar in concept to this kit Overview

but with a thicker main spacer, and a thinner crank spacer. His parts are the thickness they are to make up the difference between the chevy and isuzu trans dimensions.


I dont know about the 60, but on the 80 series, after I measured up, it looks like a 4" body lift or some type of starter relocation. I personally will spend an extra $1000 to keep away from a body lift.

Good luck, this may be your biggest hurdle.

Good idea! Certainly will look into it when I get to that point. I've never had good luck welding cast aluminum but others have so it can be done.

Another idea that I'm tossing around is to add a second flex-plate which has the ring gear, at the front of the engine, and remount the starter at the front. Might have to use a different ring gear that is smaller in diameter to clear the water pump.

Personally, I would like to keep the engine as far back as possible for two reasons: It is heavy and moving that much weight forward could affect the handling. By keeping the engine as far back as possible may gain me enough room up front to allow me to move the radiator back enough to insert the intercooler ahead of the radiator.

 

[Fromage]

I've been watching this thread for a while, thanks for the information, I think this trans compatibility may turn out to be the best kept secret in the Cruiser universe. As a direct result of the info in this and other threads on Mud I've purchased a Mitsubishi Fuso FE439 with a 4D34T engine and an Aisin 450-43LE in it. I will be plugging the combo into my FZJ80 over the summer. I will be using the 450-43LE with A442F tailhousing and 2AV T case.

Regarding the starter clearance issues, I think it will be challenging to work around but the starter bears a striking resemblance to many starters used on diesel engines of that size such as Cummins and Toyota 3B/2H. The main issue seems to be the fact that the starter is oriented with the motor case facing upwards and by rotating the starter down it may clear the floor and the frame. I think that it may be easiest to try and build a starter, perhaps by mixing and matching parts, that would be oriented downwards.

For those interested in A442F/450-43LE compatibility I expect to be knee deep in both transmissions within a month or two. If anyone has a tailhousing and output shaft that they are willing to send me, I will buy outright or return the parts from my A442F when I pull it out of the truck. The idea is to get the entire driveline sorted before pulling my FZJ apart and I intend to try and retain as much of the 450-43LE as possible.

One question, where is the best place to get the overhaul manual for the A442F? C Dan?

Cheers

JL

 

[astr]

I've been watching this thread for a while, thanks for the information, I think this trans compatibility may turn out to be the best kept secret in the Cruiser universe. As a direct result of the info in this and other threads on Mud I've purchased a Mitsubishi Fuso FE439 with a 4D34T engine and an Aisin 450-43LE in it. I will be plugging the combo into my FZJ80 over the summer. I will be using the 450-43LE with A442F tailhousing and 2AV T case.

Regarding the starter clearance issues, I think it will be challenging to work around but the starter bears a striking resemblance to many starters used on diesel engines of that size such as Cummins and Toyota 3B/2H. The main issue seems to be the fact that the starter is oriented with the motor case facing upwards and by rotating the starter down it may clear the floor and the frame. I think that it may be easiest to try and build a starter, perhaps by mixing and matching parts, that would be oriented downwards.

For those interested in A442F/450-43LE compatibility I expect to be knee deep in both transmissions within a month or two. If anyone has a tailhousing and output shaft that they are willing to send me, I will buy outright or return the parts from my A442F when I pull it out of the truck. The idea is to get the entire driveline sorted before pulling my FZJ apart and I intend to try and retain as much of the 450-43LE as possible.

One question, where is the best place to get the overhaul manual for the A442F? C Dan?

Cheers

JL

The starter issue is because of the layout of the Isuzu 4HE1 engine. Does the Mitsu 4D34T have the same starter arrangement?

Best place for the A440F and the A442F manuals is here: Toyota Workshop & Repair Manuals - Page: 2

Included in one of the diesel NPR shop manuals, the Isuzu AW450 manual is here: Isuzu Manuals - Page: 1

I suspect that the primary difference between the Mitsu and Isuzu versions of the AW-450 is the bell housing.

Good luck and post up as you make progress!

By the way, the official designation of the Isuzu transmission is AW450-43LE. I just shorten it to AW450.

 

[MadTripper]

The more the merrier!!!!

I have a while before I'll be moving forward but I'm glad you guys are leading the way. I'd be happy to help where I can, once the other swap is done.

Tripper

 

[Fromage]

Sorry, I should have been clearer - I meant to say that it will be challenging in your case. The Mitsu engine that I am going to use has a conventional starter setup. I am picking up the truck this weekend so I will know more next week, but I am not starting the actual nut and bolt work for a few weeks.

 

[MadTripper]

Fromage,

Can you post up some pictures of the bell housing and starter arrangment when you get your engine.

I'm wondering if there is some remote possibility that since the transmissions are the same, the bell's could be swapped (engine side) to address the starter problem.

Chris

 

[astr]

Fromage,

Can you post up some pictures of the bell housing and starter arrangment when you get your engine.

I'm wondering if there is some remote possibility that since the transmissions are the same, the bell's could be swapped (engine side) to address the starter problem.

Chris

There is some discussion on the Mitsu engine here: Mitsubishi 4D34 [Archive] - Cummins 4BT & Diesel Conversions Forums I have a friend that has a Fuso truck but it has the Jatco JR403RE transmission. The Jatco was the same automatic that was fitted to the Isuzu 4BD1/2 engines here in the US. I'm not sure which engine he actually has but I remember it being 3.9 L, cam in block but with the exhaust and intake reversed from the 4BD1/2. I'll have to find out exactly which engine he has.

Based on the above info, there is a slim chance that the back ends of the Fuso 4D34T and the Isuzu 4BD1/2 have the same bolt pattern in which case you could bolt an AW450/A440F/A442F to a 4BD1/2 by using the bell housing off an AW450 that was originally fitted to a 4D34T.

Slim chance but then I would never have believed the amount of interchangeability that exists between the AW450/A440F/A442F transmissions.

 

[MadTripper]

I guess that is kind of my thought process. If there is some more compatibility that we haven't found, more doors could be opened. I guess I need to start looking for some mitsu products....


Tripper

 

[Spook50]

Got some serious catching up to do on this thread, but just to throw a wrench into the works, why not just put an H55 behind the 4HE1TC? If the A440F can be physically bolted right on (nevermind the strength considerations), why not the bellhousing for an H55? I'd love to have a 5spd behind that, and it seems that if you went that route, you'd save yourself a great deal of work. I'm sure the H55 is plenty strong enough for that diesel.

Just curious why this hasn't been considered yet.

 

[astr]

Got some serious catching up to do on this thread, but just to throw a wrench into the works, why not just put an H55 behind the 4HE1TC? If the A440F can be physically bolted right on (nevermind the strength considerations), why not the bellhousing for an H55? I'd love to have a 5spd behind that, and it seems that if you went that route, you'd save yourself a great deal of work. I'm sure the H55 is plenty strong enough for that diesel.

Just curious why this hasn't been considered yet.

The reason that I wouldn't consider it is I don't wnat a manual transmission.

The reason that you can't do it is because the only reason that the A440 will bolt up to the 4HE1 is because it has a separate bell housing which can be interchanged with the AW450 bell housing which originally came with the 4HE1. If you can bolt the H55 to a A440F bell housing, then you could do what you are suggesting.

Good luck!