Internal lift pump on my 1HD-FT took a dump

[AussieHJCruza]

So are you saying there is a vacuum after the fuel pump ? ..

No I am not, the factory lift pump is part of the injector pump and feeds the IP with fuel under pressure, approx 5 psi

 

[phatman81]

No I am not, the factory lift pump is part of the injector pump and feeds the IP with fuel under pressure, approx 5 psi

So there is no possible way air can be separated from the fuel unless there is a vacuum and a wick that wicks off the air and vapor .. I am not saying there isn't a way to reduce the air in diesel tanks .. Using baffles the amount of jostling can be reduced but people that don't go off road much don't need to worry about air in the fuel .. Diesel is a lubricant and air in the diesel cuts down the lubricating properties of diesel in the injectors .. Air in the fuel isn't going to kill injector quickly so many will not forgo the additional filtration system .. But if I can limit the wear in my injectors and injector pump by as much as 15%-20% and in turn also limit premature detonation due to air in the fuel, I'm going to do this .. I am also going to use a Amsiol bypass 3 micron oil filter as well because this additional oil filter removes the soot which is abrasive .. Maybe your rig isn't worth the additional preventative measures to increase engine life, but I'm the guy who will do this I want to have my vehicle for a long time ..

 

[AussieHJCruza]

I've got a fair bit of dyno time and a fair bit of milage on Toyota diesels, virtually all making significantly more power than stock, so hopefully might have learnt something along the way.

A couple of things I think you may have overlooked, firstly a diesel cannot detonate and secondly, air in the fuel doesn't advance the timing, it effectively retards it so can't lead to pre-ignition either. These trucks are not common rail diesels, the tolerances in the pumps and injectors and the working pressures aren't high enough to cause issues due to Cavitation or whatever it may be.

If we apply the same mindset, how does the lubrication system work? Oil is sloshing around in the sump, the crank is most likely introducing air into the oil through windage and if the engine is turbocharged, the oil return from the turbo looks like a creamy mess.

 

[roscoFJ73]

So your saying that air in the fuel is not an issue .. Ok .. Is diesel fuel a lubricant ? ..

I am saying that the fuel does not contain any significant amounts of air when it gets to the injection pump. You know diesel is a lubricant for the pump, so why ask? If you are pushing this system as a fix for injector pump problems, you would know its a lubricant.
You only need to run a piece of clear hose from the filter to injector pump to know the fuel is not frothy as it enters the injection pump.
People take Landcruisers, myself included, with stock fuel systems into extremely remote areas and they are not having problems.

Diesel is a lubricant and air in the diesel cuts down the lubricating properties of diesel in the injectors

To keep the engine running, the fuel is coming through the injection pump to the injectors at 10-15 litres an hour. Lubrication is all about a film of lubricant a few microns thick. If there is the odd bubble, it is not going to affect the injection pump or injectors.

 

[phatman81]

I am saying that the fuel does not contain any significant amounts of air when it gets to the injection pump. You know diesel is a lubricant for the pump, so why ask? If you are pushing this system as a fix for injector pump problems, you would know its a lubricant.
You only need to run a piece of clear hose from the filter to injector pump to know the fuel is not frothy as it enters the injection pump.
People take Landcruisers, myself included, with stock fuel systems into extremely remote areas and they are not having problems.



To keep the engine running, the fuel is coming through the injection pump to the injectors at 10-15 litres an hour. Lubrication is all about a film of lubricant a few microns thick. If there is the odd bubble, it is not going to affect the injection pump or injectors.

You and I are in complete agreement in regards to an Odd Bubble or two .. But when 4 Wheeling across over rough country a lot of air and foam form inside the tank .. This is not an Odd Bubble or two .. Let me see If I can find the video which show the massive quantity of foam and bubbles .. I'll post it when I find it again ..

 

[AussieHJCruza]

What's on top of the fuel in the tank is irrelevant...if the IP feed is air free then no worries...and it is unless you're ready running a blender in the fuel tank

 

[phatman81]

I agree that the foam on the top of the tank is irrelevant .. The air in the fuel that is fed into your injector pump is relevant ..

Why off road diesel tanks without advanced baffling allows air to build up in the fuel .. You will notice that the white bubbles in the fuel (where it is not perfectly blue denotes massive air build up in a tank that sloshes continually due to motion of the fuel diesel tanks .. Fuel Truck advanced computational fluid dynamics SHOW air bubbles forming due to sloshing .. Demonstration of sloshing, Diesel Fuel air bubbles in the fuel IS AN ISSUE .. Period ..

The majority of Diesel fuel tanks do not employ anti sloshing baffling .. Over rough ground even tanks with baffle still have issues due to extreme sloshing ..

Evolution of FASS Lift Pump for Air / Water Separation, 2 Micron Filters .. By filtering fuel a large 18 Wheel Truck Engine range can go 750,000 Miles to 1,000,000 miles by using an advanced fuel filtering system that removes air and water more effectively than "ANYTHING ELSE ON THE MARKET" ..

It is NOT true that Toyota removes any AIR or WATER from its fuel and the weak attempt of others Kits who remove water only do a VERY poor job .. FASS GLASS Filters remove water down to 84 PPM .. 200 PPM passes SAE requirements .. Cellulose Filters in competitive products come in at 396 PPM .. MOST all water separators sold on the markets world wide are cellulose filters which filter less and produce more back pressure than Glass filters .. The proof in in the pudding ..

Thus far the responses have been "Air bubbles in the fuel don't exist" .. I have shown otherwise more than once .. I have also shown that highly polished fuel with a "Clear Noticeable Look" is evident from a FASS air / water separation system .. Not one of you has been able to show otherwise .. FASS fuel water / air / particulates ARE THE BAR OTHERS ARE MEASURED BY ..

 

[Nz Nath]

There's plenty of posts on cummins forums about fass pumps failing. And I'm suspicious of how well any electrical pump would cope with a lot of exposure to mudholes and driving through creeks etc. In terms of adding resilience to your fuel system, the risk of a pump failing probably outweighs the benefits of cleaner fuel (and maybe less micro air bubbles?)

 

[AussieHJCruza]

1,000,000 miles isn't particularly remarkable for a truck engine. We run Volvo's at work and their first rebuild is scheduled at 1.8 million km and it's top end only. I don't think you could credit that to a special fuel filter.

 

[phatman81]

Submersion in water was what I asked FASS about .. They said they had never done this but the entire pump is o-ring sealed .. That doesn't mean that submersion has been tested .. He said he was interested in putting one of their pumps in 3 feet of water to ensure the pump was water tight and I said that 2 Atmospheres would be better so 6 feet .. Not that a vehicle is going to operate in this condition but it is good insurance to validate that a 3 ft it will ALWAYS work .. He agreed and said okay .. I'll find out in the next few weeks or so ..

Additionally, the big take away is 25% longer life of the engine .. One of the things that are just as important is removing the Soot from the Oil because Toyota doesn't use a Glass Fiber oil filter .. They use cellulose .. So a 2 micron glass filter of about the same size will have better flow than the crappy filter .. Actually most filters on all types of vehicles are crappy because 99% of them don't use glass fiber filters .. Soot in the oil affect engine life and engine oil life as Soot is an abrasive ..

 

[phatman81]

1,000,000 miles isn't particularly remarkable for a truck engine. We run Volvo's at work and their first rebuild is scheduled at 1.8 million km and it's top end only. I don't think you could credit that to a special fuel filter.

I did not asserted that I could achieve 25% longer engine life, it was FASS .. If you watch the video they assert this fact .. They said they had the data to prove this .. How many fuel filters that you know have 2 micron filtering capabilities ? .. Please show me at least one .. Please show me any besides the FASS filters that use Glass Fibers with as much as 4 times the flow of a cellulose filter ..

 

[AussieHJCruza]

Yes, I'm sure that 2 micron is good but at what efficiency rating?
I run 5 micron Parker FM100 on my common rail diesels, they also can supply 2 micron filters but I don't see any value in it. If the OEM deems a 5 micron filter to be sufficient I'll take their word for it...if there was a discernable difference with 2 micron I'm sure they'd use it, it's no more cost to them

 

[phatman81]

Yes, I'm sure that 2 micron is good but at what efficiency rating?
I run 5 micron Parker FM100 on my common rail diesels, they also can supply 2 micron filters but I don't see any value in it. If the OEM deems a 5 micron filter to be sufficient I'll take their word for it...if there was a discernable difference with 2 micron I'm sure they'd use it, it's no more cost to them

I would ask if the Parker Fuel Filter is a Glass Fiber or a Cellulose .. If it is a cellulose then for a equal size fuel filter a glass fiber filter will have 4 times the flow rate possible with equal pressures .. This also depend upon several other factors as well like the torque of the electric motor .. Electric motors that have to push harder or draw harder cause internal heating and increase wear .. So I like Glass Fiber filters because they are the most efficient in flow and filtration .. For a cellulose filter to equal the amount of flow it would have to be 4 times as large as a FASS filter .. The links to the videos above demonstrate these facts ..

 

[roscoFJ73]

Additionally, the big take away is 25% longer life of the engine

Proof? Or do we have to do 750000klms before we see for ourselves. And I would love to see proof that tiny little bubbles cause wear problems in injectors and diesel pumps.

I did not asserted that I could achieve 25% longer engine life, it was FASS

Oh, well they should post up how they arrived at such claims.

If air bubbles or froth was getting to the injectors, you would be losing power noticeably.

 

[phatman81]

Proof? Or do we have to do 750000klms before we see for ourselves. And I would love to see proof that tiny little bubbles cause wear problems in injectors and diesel pumps.


Oh, well they should post up how they arrived at such claims.

If air bubbles or froth was getting to the injectors, you would be losing power noticeably.

I can see you have never watched any of the videos I have posted or you wouldn't have even asked this question ..

 

[roscoFJ73]

I can see you have never watched any of the videos I have posted or you wouldn't have even asked this question ..

I watched the videos first time around a few years back and I haven't changed my mind. No one else sees it as an issue, except FASS who are selling a "fix"

 

[roscoFJ73]

You and I are in complete agreement in regards to an Odd Bubble or two .. But when 4 Wheeling across over rough country a lot of air and foam form inside the tank .. This is not an Odd Bubble or two .. Let me see If I can find the video which show the massive quantity of foam and bubbles .. I'll post it when I find it again ..

Ive seen the video. What FASS dont show is the froth entering the fuel pump and injectors. Because its not happening.

 

[phatman81]

Ive seen the video. What FASS dont show is the froth entering the fuel pump and injectors. Because its not happening.

So you didn't see the other videos which showed froth forming in a tank and the simulation of tank on a big rig at .5 g's and the froth in that tank .. Hmm ..

 

[phatman81]

FASS FUEL / WATER / AIR Systems are the best on the market .. AirDog which was #2 has gone out of business because they could not keep up ..

 

[ZCissner]

I say you buy it, put 1million miles on it and in 20 years let us know how it worked out.

But it seems like an answer to a question nobody has asked.