I'm not a follower of forced induction .... but this thread likely has a lot of relevant info in it: https://forum.ih8mud.com/60-series-wagons/163559-can-you-turbo-3fe.html
INTERESTED BUYERS FOR TURBO or SUPERCHARGER KIT FOR 3FE engine ?
- Thread starter FJ62INTX
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- Thread starter
- #22
I have seen Akarilo's thread and it proves a lot of what I mentioned about additional injectors for enrichment during boost.
First, I want to say that I have utmost respect for Akarilo and his accomplishments, so I don't want anyone saying I was bashing or being harsh.
Here are the issues or bottlenecks to the setup he made:
1. Turbo is way too small to make more than 175hp at 5 or 6 psi max.. And that is guessing because of what mustang 5.0 guys say about the ihi turbos..
2. Intercooler and tubing size are likely somewhat restrictive above 200hp
3. Exhaust manifold adapter to turbo flange has 90 degree blunt turn for very restrictive flow
4. Waste gate uses flange bolts instead of v-band clamps
5. There are no flex joints anywhere in the exhaust at any point, heat cycles and thermal fatigue will eventually crack pipe or manifolds at some time in the future.
I think the gent from down under did a good job to put out good power numbers, but I haven't seen his setup..
In general, it is hard to know how these engines work on boost because there haven't been many really good examples yet for a true average. Engines are air pumps and if you force feed them with boost, they should make more power accordingly matching the pressure and air volume boosted.
First, I want to say that I have utmost respect for Akarilo and his accomplishments, so I don't want anyone saying I was bashing or being harsh.
Here are the issues or bottlenecks to the setup he made:
1. Turbo is way too small to make more than 175hp at 5 or 6 psi max.. And that is guessing because of what mustang 5.0 guys say about the ihi turbos..
2. Intercooler and tubing size are likely somewhat restrictive above 200hp
3. Exhaust manifold adapter to turbo flange has 90 degree blunt turn for very restrictive flow
4. Waste gate uses flange bolts instead of v-band clamps
5. There are no flex joints anywhere in the exhaust at any point, heat cycles and thermal fatigue will eventually crack pipe or manifolds at some time in the future.
I think the gent from down under did a good job to put out good power numbers, but I haven't seen his setup..
In general, it is hard to know how these engines work on boost because there haven't been many really good examples yet for a true average. Engines are air pumps and if you force feed them with boost, they should make more power accordingly matching the pressure and air volume boosted.
- Thread starter
- #24
You are right, I am just stating theory, which is what I have been doing the whole time with this possible kit proposal. Will You be buying one if they turn out nice and make great power?
Any more info on that 2F turbo that you posted the dyno of?
Anyone have any stock 2F/ 3FE Wheel HP numbers?
The turbo 2F that I posted is mine.
Draw through 4 barrel holey carb, T4 turbo running on propane. 2f/SM420/dual minitruck tcases/14 bolt/4.11 gears/39.5" Iroks. No intercooler, runs like a raped ape. Wide spacing between gears is what essentially kills it. Not nearly fast enough with the shifting. An auto would be much better.
I have a cam that should let is breathe better in the upper RPM's. The stock cam falls on it's face after 3,200 rpm or so.
Draw through 4 barrel holey carb, T4 turbo running on propane. 2f/SM420/dual minitruck tcases/14 bolt/4.11 gears/39.5" Iroks. No intercooler, runs like a raped ape. Wide spacing between gears is what essentially kills it. Not nearly fast enough with the shifting. An auto would be much better.
I have a cam that should let is breathe better in the upper RPM's. The stock cam falls on it's face after 3,200 rpm or so.
- Thread starter
- #26
Good gosh man!!! Very cool. I would love to see pics of the setup!!!
Those 39.5 tires are power sponges, I bet Your numbers would be super awesome with some stock tires...
I am also thinking about a regrind or new ground cam with more duration and lift even with fuel injection if using the afm, I bet we could get it to work..
Those 39.5 tires are power sponges, I bet Your numbers would be super awesome with some stock tires...
I am also thinking about a regrind or new ground cam with more duration and lift even with fuel injection if using the afm, I bet we could get it to work..
Interested for 2500.
I just question long term durability. These engines have a long stroke, with long rods, and heavy pistons on the end of them, and that's coupled with the grossly inadequate crankshaft support.
There's only 4 main bearings in these engines. You get enough cylinder pressure and that crank is going to start flexing like a wet noodle. 300 HP @ 4000 RPM is nearly 400 lb-ft at the crank. I think that's asking a lot from that bottom end.
I know a piggy-back system makes things easier, but what happens if the main EFI system or the piggy-back decides to pack it in while you're in full boost up a hill? You'll probably punch the bottom end right out of the engine with that much detonation.
That's not even mentioning what the poor A440F is going to do with that much torque being sent into it.
There's only 4 main bearings in these engines. You get enough cylinder pressure and that crank is going to start flexing like a wet noodle. 300 HP @ 4000 RPM is nearly 400 lb-ft at the crank. I think that's asking a lot from that bottom end.
I know a piggy-back system makes things easier, but what happens if the main EFI system or the piggy-back decides to pack it in while you're in full boost up a hill? You'll probably punch the bottom end right out of the engine with that much detonation.
That's not even mentioning what the poor A440F is going to do with that much torque being sent into it.
I have routinely hit 4500 with my setup. Admittedly it is not 300 hp, but the motor is holding up really well...
140RWHP is probably ~200-230 HP at the crank. Still quite a distance from 300HP. The cam you have helps reduce the amount of boost you need, and the propane will certainly keep detonation down.
- Thread starter
- #33
Has anyone really studied and figured out if the 2JZ-GTE engine doesn't make much torque below 3,000 rpm or is it just a myth?
I found one Dyno graph from Japan for the 2JZ-GTE in n-m values and it shows the JDM power curve going from 180 ft-lbs at 1500rpm to 230 ft-lbs at 2000 rpm.... up to 300+ft-lbs at higher RPM and 280hp (JDM engine)
There doesn't seem to be much difference between the 3FE putting out 190-200 ft lbs at 1000-2000 and not going up hardly at all and then falling off.....
What am I getting at here?
I may also run my leads out for a 2JZ-GTE swap setup and just run a higher stall converter than the stocker, which will multiply my torque from the little 3.0L to probably much more than the 3FE stock setup.
Not saying I won't turbo the 3FE still, but, as many people constantly complain about how the engine won't hold much power or RPM, I am starting to see this as real turd-polishing contest, and I don't want mine to be the brightest and most expensive. It looks like a setup with a working, tuned Megasquirt computer that would need to be pre-wired and setup for the swap onto the 3FE may be the only choice. I do understand and know what is being stated about piggyback systems and their limits or effects from failure.
Besides that, I can always gear the Differentials up to some 4.88 or 5.29's for more torque if needed with the 3.0L , right?
I found one Dyno graph from Japan for the 2JZ-GTE in n-m values and it shows the JDM power curve going from 180 ft-lbs at 1500rpm to 230 ft-lbs at 2000 rpm.... up to 300+ft-lbs at higher RPM and 280hp (JDM engine)
There doesn't seem to be much difference between the 3FE putting out 190-200 ft lbs at 1000-2000 and not going up hardly at all and then falling off.....
What am I getting at here?
I may also run my leads out for a 2JZ-GTE swap setup and just run a higher stall converter than the stocker, which will multiply my torque from the little 3.0L to probably much more than the 3FE stock setup.
Not saying I won't turbo the 3FE still, but, as many people constantly complain about how the engine won't hold much power or RPM, I am starting to see this as real turd-polishing contest, and I don't want mine to be the brightest and most expensive. It looks like a setup with a working, tuned Megasquirt computer that would need to be pre-wired and setup for the swap onto the 3FE may be the only choice. I do understand and know what is being stated about piggyback systems and their limits or effects from failure.
Besides that, I can always gear the Differentials up to some 4.88 or 5.29's for more torque if needed with the 3.0L , right?
Well if you want to get a little creative and get a VGT/VNT turbo - or just a very well sized single/twin turbo, you could make a 2JZ make as much torque as you wanted just off idle. The latest generations of turbo engines can pretty much make diesel-like low end torque.
Also don't get me wrong, I'm not against a turbo/blower kit for a 3FE, I just think if a kit were to be made, it should have a lot of testing done to make sure it can take it and be reliable. Maybe Someone doing a V8 swap would willing to give up their old 3FE up in the name of science?
If you could get the 3FE reliably to around or a little more then Jeep 4.0HO power levels (~195HP, should be pretty close to Mace's power actually), within a reasonable budget I bet most people would be quite happy.
Also don't get me wrong, I'm not against a turbo/blower kit for a 3FE, I just think if a kit were to be made, it should have a lot of testing done to make sure it can take it and be reliable. Maybe Someone doing a V8 swap would willing to give up their old 3FE up in the name of science?
If you could get the 3FE reliably to around or a little more then Jeep 4.0HO power levels (~195HP, should be pretty close to Mace's power actually), within a reasonable budget I bet most people would be quite happy.
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For what it's worth, I have a fully worked 3F petrol engine in my FJ62. The guy that built my engine for me build professional race engines that he sells for 90-100k to the big boys over here. My engine was built for reliability and torque but still makes around 200 HP. He has advised me that bolting up a supercharger not a turbo is well worth the investment. Pro Charger is the one he specifically mentioned. It would add aprox 100 more ponies under the hood. Now my engine would handle the supercharger option very easily, but it is NOT A STOCK engine by any stretch. I do not know how an older engine would hold up to the pressure. I might be interested if the shipping costs and import duties and taxes are reasonable into Aussie land.
In my opinion, once the price mark start passing $1500, I automatically start leaning towards a complete engine swap. For around 2k you can start finding bread trucks (read 4bt cummins) chevy 350s, and hell have you seen how cheap rusty BJ/HJs are in Canada now?
- Thread starter
- #37
Good point, and same thing I am personally debating about the cost of the turbo kit completion vs. an engine swap to something with more future potential.
You've got the GM Vortec/Atlas 4200 engine too. 4.2L I6, 291HP, 270 ft-lbs, 90% of it's maximum torque available from 1200RPM.
That is why if your turboing the 62 just make it cheap and easy. The 62 doesn't need that much more power to improve its drive ability tremendously. If you could squeeze another 30-40hp out of it you would be much happier on the hills. My first Land Cruiser was a 1990 fj62 which I loved. It was slow but I really enjoyed that vehicle. I was in college and the 500$ a month fuel bill was killing me. Sold it, regretted it, bought a fj60 and the 2f put slow into a whole new light. Drove it for a year, took 4 weeks and dropped in a 5.7tbi and 4l60e.
The 5.7 I have only has 55 more hp than the 3fe but it does have a 90ftlb advantage when it comes to torque. The difference in drive-ability however is night and day. The 5.7 will pull 6-7% grade at 75 no problem. It gets 17mpg if I keep it around 70mph and 15-16 at 85. It gets up to speed quickly and pulls smaller trailers with ease. I also think the 4l60e is a more efficient transmission. The 62 transmission seems to eat up more power than other automatics.
I guess what I am getting at is a cheap simple turbo on a 3fe would push it into the tolerable range. If you are doing a one off for yourself you could probably get it done for under 1k. Keep it cheap and simple and it minimizes the ripple effect that starts bringing in transmission, injector capacity etc.
The 5.7 I have only has 55 more hp than the 3fe but it does have a 90ftlb advantage when it comes to torque. The difference in drive-ability however is night and day. The 5.7 will pull 6-7% grade at 75 no problem. It gets 17mpg if I keep it around 70mph and 15-16 at 85. It gets up to speed quickly and pulls smaller trailers with ease. I also think the 4l60e is a more efficient transmission. The 62 transmission seems to eat up more power than other automatics.
I guess what I am getting at is a cheap simple turbo on a 3fe would push it into the tolerable range. If you are doing a one off for yourself you could probably get it done for under 1k. Keep it cheap and simple and it minimizes the ripple effect that starts bringing in transmission, injector capacity etc.
