Intercooling options?

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Feb 22, 2005
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Looking to intercool my 2L-T Bundera and am having trouble finding any hard facts about top mounting v front mounting.

from what i understand it basically is a trade off... lag v's efficiency.

Is lag more severe with a low capacity/power engine? and will it be enough to make a top mount a better option :confused:

A few things i have read have said a top mount is much nicer to drive, more even power i assume.

Deffinately more room up front than on top, so i guess that is an advantage, although i have no idea how big it needs to be.
:confused:
 
i took a intercooled 2L-T for a test drive a few weeks back and i have to say i was less than impressed. my feelings on the matter is tht the intercooler was too big for the application so the small turbo couldn't push enough volumn of air.
3 things to consider (and i am FAR from being an expert) clean plumbing and clear air flow, and in my mind a smaller intercooler for the 2L-T.
cheers
 
http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/turbo/intercooler.html


Pressure Drop
Another aspect of intercoolers to be considered is pressure drop. The pressure read by a boost gauge is the pressure in the intake manifold. It is not the same as the pressure that the turbocharger itself puts out. To get a fluid, such as air, to flow there must be a difference in pressure from one end to the other. Consider a straw that is sitting on the table. It doesn't having anything moving through it until you pick it up, stick it in your mouth, and change the pressure at one end (either by blowing or sucking). In the same way the turbo outlet pressure is higher than the intake manifold pressure, and will always be higher than the intake pressure, because there must be a pressure difference for the air to move.

The difference in pressure required for a given amount of air to move from turbo to intake manifold is an indication of the hydraulic restriction of the intercooler, the up pipe, and the throttle body. Let's say you are trying to move 255 gram/sec of air through a stock intercooler, up pipe, and throttle body and there is a 4 psi difference that is pushing it along (I'm just making up numbers here). If your boost gauge reads 15 psi, that means the turbo is actually putting up 19 psi. Now you buy a PT-70 and slap on some Champion heads. Now you are moving 450 gm/sec of air. At 15 psi boost in the intake manifold the turbo now has to put up 23 psi, because the pressure drop required to get the higher air flow is now 8 psi instead of the 4 that we had before. More flow with the same equipment means higher pressure drop. So we put on a new front mount intercooler. It has a lower pressure drop, pressure drop is now 4 psi, so the turbo is putting up 19 psi again. Now we add the 65 mm throttle body and the pressure drop is now 3 psi. Then we add the 2.5" up pipe, and it drops to 2.5 psi. Now to make 15 psi boost the turbo only has to put up 17.5 psi. The difference in turbo outlet temperature between 23 psi and 17.5 psi is about 40 deg (assuming a constant efficiency)! So you can see how just by reducing the pressure drop we can lower the temperatures while still running the same amount of boost.

I have seen some misunderstandings regarding intercooler pressure drop and how it relates to heat transfer. For example, one vendor's catalog implies that if you had little or no pressure drop then you would have no heat transfer. This is incorrect. Pressure drop and heat transfer are relatively independent, you can have good heat transfer in an intercooler that has a small pressure drop if it is designed correctly. It is easier to have good heat transfer when there is a larger pressure drop because the fluid's turbulence helps the heat transfer coefficient (U), but I have seen industrial coolers that are designed to have less than 0.2 psi of drop while flowing a heck of a lot more air, so it is certainly feasible.

Pressure drop is important because the higher the turbo discharge pressure is the higher the temperature of the turbo air. When we drop the turbo discharge pressure we also drop the temperature of the air coming out of the turbo. When we do that we also drop the intercooler outlet temperature, although not as much, but hey, every little bit helps. This lower pressure drop is part of the benefit offered by new, bigger front mount intercoolers; by the Duttweiler neck modification to stock location intercoolers; by bigger up pipes; and by bigger throttle bodies. You can also make the turbo work less hard by improving the inlet side to it. K&N air filters, free flowing MAF pipes, removing a screen from the MAF, removing the MAF itself when switching to an aftermarket fuel injection system, the upcoming 3" and 3.5" MAFs from Modern Muscle, these all reduce the pressure drop in the turbo inlet system which makes the compressor work less to produce the same boost which will reduce the turbo discharge temperature (among other, and probably greater, benefits).
What about my Intercooler?
Wondering if your intercooler is up to snuff? The big test: measure your intercooler outlet temperature! When I did this I got a K type thermocouple, the thin wire kind, slid it under the throttle body/up pipe hose and down into the center of the up pipe, and went for a drive. On an 80 to 85 deg day I got a WOT temperature of 140 deg, for a 55 to 60 deg approach. That tells me that I need more intercooler. If I can get the temperature down to 100 deg, the air density in the intake manifold goes up by 7%, so I should flow 7% more air and presumably make 7% more hp. On a 350 hp engine that is 25 hp increase. On a 450 hp engine that's a 30 hp increase. Damn, where's my check book…

Another check is pressure drop. Best way to check it is to find a pressure differential gauge, which has 2 lines instead of the single line a normal pressure gauge has. It checks the difference between the 2 spots it is hooked up to, as opposed to checking the difference in pressure between the spot it is hooked up to and atmospheric pressure, which is how a normal pressure gauge works.

Hook one line of the gauge to the turbo outlet and one to (preferably) the intercooler outlet. The turbo outlet/intercooler inlet pressure is easy, just tee into the wastegate supply line off the compressor housing. It would be nice to get the intercooler outlet pressure directly, but there's no convenient spot to hook up to. Hooking into the intake manifold (such as via the line to the boost gauge) is quite convenient, but gives the total pressure drop: intercooler + up pipe + throttle body. That'll give you a pretty good idea though.

Instead of the differential pressure gauge you could use 2 boost gauges, one in each spot, but then you have to worry about whether both gauges are calibrated the same, try to read both at the same time while driving fast, etc AND you may spring (ie, ruin) the gauge on the turbo outlet since when you close the throttle you get a big pressure spike that your normal boost gauge never sees.

If you find more than 4 or 5 psi difference between the intercooler inlet and intake manifold (and I'm just giving an educated guess here, you'd probably want to refer to one of the intercooler manufacturers for a better number) then I would suspect that a larger, lower pressure drop intercooler would offer you some gains.
 
Good link and info Moose! I am contemplating a 13BT into Das Poo, and would crank it a bit, with intercooler.

gb
 
GB, I'm certainly contemplating a 13BT exhaust manifold...perhaps your shiny one if my garage sale goes well this weekend...turbo a la junkyard and I might just break 80km/hr up the Malahat.
 
very interesting reading there Moose, thanks.
now once i get my head around it i am going looking for an intercooler
 
Greg_B said:
Good link and info Moose! I am contemplating a 13BT into Das Poo, and would crank it a bit, with intercooler.

gb

How much 'crank' do you estimate an intercooler would produce in a 13BT?

M
 
Mike S said:
How much 'crank' do you estimate an intercooler would produce in a 13BT?

M

Hello!

I really have no idea...not even a guess at this point. Ideally it would be nice to find access to a dyno, do the swap, dyno it, then start adding things like intercooler, propane, etc and check at each stage.

gb
 
Just putting on an intercooler does not usually yield more hp....you have to turn up the boost to get the extra hp . What is the stock boost setting of a 13bt ? I would guess about 7-9 psi as most oem's set it at this for reliability....when no intercooler is a factory standard .
If you are not going to run over 10-12 psi intercooleris no benefit. If you are going to run more than that yes it is a benefit....BUT.....how much boost do you want to run ? If you want to crank say 15-17 psi you better look at the compressor efficiency that your turbo has . Running that much boost from a turbo that is not designed to push tat much boost (efficiently) will produce LOTS of heat and simpily negating the heat reduction benefit of the intercooler....sure you will make more boost and more hp but you will be supplying lots of really hot air that will lead to a much shorter life for your engine but mostly the air molecules will be very large so each intake slug of air will be large and less hp will be generated than is desireable running that much boost .
If you want to make lots of hp then you also have to choose the appropriate turbocharger....there will be sacrafices....lots of upper end hp will yield poor low end grunt....not desireable in a cruiser....really low end grunt will not build lots of upper end hp .
Making more hp with a turbocharged engine is lots of fun..I have done about 6 ...no cruisers yet though....almost finished my manifold for the 3b...then it will begin !!!!
I is all about planning ...just crankig up a few more psi is easy but when you start addind 6-7 psi over stock things can get messy real fast and i mean REAL fast...been there made that mess !


Just be careful cranking up the boost and have fun !
HTH's , in some way :-)
Daryl
 
fjbj40 said:
Just putting on an intercooler does not usually yield more hp....you have to turn up the boost to get the extra hp . What is the stock boost setting of a 13bt ? I would guess about 7-9 psi as most oem's set it at this for reliability....when no intercooler is a factory standard .
If you are not going to run over 10-12 psi intercooleris no benefit. If you are going to run more than that yes it is a benefit....BUT.....how much boost do you want to run ? If you want to crank say 15-17 psi you better look at the compressor efficiency that your turbo has . Running that much boost from a turbo that is not designed to push tat much boost (efficiently) will produce LOTS of heat and simpily negating the heat reduction benefit of the intercooler....sure you will make more boost and more hp but you will be supplying lots of really hot air that will lead to a much shorter life for your engine but mostly the air molecules will be very large so each intake slug of air will be large and less hp will be generated than is desireable running that much boost .
If you want to make lots of hp then you also have to choose the appropriate turbocharger....there will be sacrafices....lots of upper end hp will yield poor low end grunt....not desireable in a cruiser....really low end grunt will not build lots of upper end hp .
Making more hp with a turbocharged engine is lots of fun..I have done about 6 ...no cruisers yet though....almost finished my manifold for the 3b...then it will begin !!!!
I is all about planning ...just crankig up a few more psi is easy but when you start addind 6-7 psi over stock things can get messy real fast and i mean REAL fast...been there made that mess !


Just be careful cranking up the boost and have fun !
HTH's , in some way :-)
Daryl


Daryl, keep us tuned into your 3B turbo project, I'm looking to do the same thing with my BJ70. Definitely want the low-end power/torque benefit you speak of.

Regarding the intercooler, regardless of whether it's actually necessary or not, wouldn't every system benefit from having that charge of air cooled? I read somewhere that every degree dropped is worth one horse?

BTW, I went to high school in Dartmouth (Prince Andrew '89), and my wife's family live there...haven't been back in years.
 
one thing that has changed here is the cost of housing has gone through the roof !!!
I am hopping to get the manifold finished up soon...but I am a stay home dad with a 5 and 7 year old so not much time to do stuff ! Just finished up redoing the body on the bj62 and am finishing up frame repairs and then I have to install the OME suspension...then the turbo !
If I could post pics I would but I have tried and have not had any luck .
HOW do you post pics anyways ?
Daryl
 
my buddy here got a bj70 and when all is said and done he wants one also . We will be trying mine on his I would say so will see how it fits under a 70 hood !
Daryl
 
Any good stuff at the garage sale Moose??? Hmmm? Im working, but might have to send the wife on a mission! You are in Vic n'est pas?
 
fjbj40 said:
one thing that has changed here is the cost of housing has gone through the roof !!!
I am hopping to get the manifold finished up soon...but I am a stay home dad with a 5 and 7 year old so not much time to do stuff ! Just finished up redoing the body on the bj62 and am finishing up frame repairs and then I have to install the OME suspension...then the turbo !
If I could post pics I would but I have tried and have not had any luck .
HOW do you post pics anyways ?
Daryl


Regarding pictures, you need to upload the images somewhere onto the web, then click on the icon above that looks like a mountain and paste the location of that image on the web.

For example:

horiz02.jpg
 
Is that a self portrait Moose? :)
 
fjbj40 said:
Just putting on an intercooler does not usually yield more hp....you have to turn up the boost to get the extra hp . What is the stock boost setting of a 13bt ? I would guess about 7-9 psi as most oem's set it at this for reliability....when no intercooler is a factory standard .
If you are not going to run over 10-12 psi intercooleris no benefit. If you are going to run more than that yes it is a benefit....BUT.....how much boost do you want to run ? If you want to crank say 15-17 psi you better look at the compressor efficiency that your turbo has . Running that much boost from a turbo that is not designed to push tat much boost (efficiently) will produce LOTS of heat and simpily negating the heat reduction benefit of the intercooler....sure you will make more boost and more hp but you will be supplying lots of really hot air that will lead to a much shorter life for your engine but mostly the air molecules will be very large so each intake slug of air will be large and less hp will be generated than is desireable running that much boost .
If you want to make lots of hp then you also have to choose the appropriate turbocharger....there will be sacrafices....lots of upper end hp will yield poor low end grunt....not desireable in a cruiser....really low end grunt will not build lots of upper end hp .
Making more hp with a turbocharged engine is lots of fun..I have done about 6 ...no cruisers yet though....almost finished my manifold for the 3b...then it will begin !!!!
I is all about planning ...just crankig up a few more psi is easy but when you start addind 6-7 psi over stock things can get messy real fast and i mean REAL fast...been there made that mess !


Just be careful cranking up the boost and have fun !
HTH's , in some way :-)
Daryl

Yup, useful and good ideas. I did not explain the process I envision well, as it is all a dream right now. 1st would be installation of the 13BT, 4 core rad, 2.5" pipe, pyro and boost gauges, then dyno. Next would be playing with the fuel and boost to get it too a point where there is limited black, and safe max number on the pyro, then dyno. Next would be the intercooler, measured temps in and out, then play with the boost and fuel again, then dyno. Final would be propane, then dyno.

For sure...the tradeoff would be longevity vs output, and finding the balance of what the stock components can handle safetly.

It would be interesting to see what the direct injected 13BT and stock turbo would put out!

gb
 
Greg_B said:
... It would be interesting to see what the direct injected 13BT and stock turbo would put out!

This is information that would be useful. I see numbers on the 13BT like 120 HP 3400 RPM, and and 210 Lbs/ft of torque@2000 RPM. Are these numbers close to reality? I see similar engines in the marine space producing a LOT more power...

Mike S
 
Mike S said:
This is information that would be useful. I see numbers on the 13BT like 120 HP 3400 RPM, and and 210 Lbs/ft of torque@2000 RPM. Are these numbers close to reality? I see similar engines in the marine space producing a LOT more power...

Mike S

Those 13BT numbers are for stock set 13BT's...measured before the rear wheels for sure...And Toyota seems fairly conservative in their fueling and boost in stock trim.

I do not have the numbers off the top of my head, but check the marine Yanmar 1HD-T version (sp) numbers vs the LandCruiser 1HD-T numbers. Quite the difference. Have an unlimted supply of seawater to take away the heat helps a tad a think.

There's a question. Is there a marine version of the 13BT? If so, what are the numbers on it...

gb
 
The Yanmar 1HD-T equivalent engine (approx 4.2L - 12 valve) is the DTZP with 260 HP@3800 RPM. The 1HD-FT (same block - 24 valve) equivalent is the STZP with 315 HP@3800 RPM.

I could not find an engine similar to the 13BT listed in their data. My point is that these Diesel engines have a LOT of power potential, if you can solve the problems associated with producing it.


M
 

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