Insurance value for highly customized '94 FZJ80

[2 E L O]

Wow, that story about Allstate makes me want to drop them and go elsewhere. But I fear that all those big companies work the same... They're all evil...

 

[mr jits]

JP Morgan said the greatest investment he ever made was in starting an insurance company. "Loaning those fools their own money back to them" as he put it. The insurance companies are only there to feed the financial companies that own them.
Follow the advice previously given, especially on the storage piece, you wouldn't believe how quickly they'll work to settle at $100+ dollars a day.

 

[Dino]

My first car was a 1960 Ford truck that my dad and I had restored to the tune of about $14K in 1995. When I was in college an elderly gentleman pulled out in front of me a crunched up the front end. He admitted fault on a scene and never challenged me. I presented all of my receipts to the adjuster and ended up going to court where I was awarded $500 and my truck which I still have and is still crunched up. Moral of the story is: Get the lawyer to handle it and stick to your guns or they will screw you.
FYI - I just picked up a really nice 96 FZJ80 recently and made sure that my policy covers all the goodies on my ride. I added $5000 in coverage on top of the value if it is ever wrecked. The total cost for the additional coverage is only $37 per six months….

 

[BrotherRob]

Another thing, State Farm will offer you an appraiser option and present it as if it is in your best interest. This is binding arbitration, designed to force you to settle. Do not accept without the advise of your attorney.

 

[AndrewInf]

Another thing, State Farm will offer you an appraiser option and present it as if it is in your best interest. This is binding arbitration, designed to force you to settle. Do not accept without the advise of your attorney.

They tried this with me as well. They told me "whatever they say is binding." They said I could get an appraiser of my own to represent me and that the two appraisers could "come to an understanding" and whatever they determined would be binding, and would be all I would get. If they said my Z was worth $500, that's what I'd get.

I looked VERY hard, and I could not find an appraiser in town who would deal with my Z. The only appraisers that seemed to be around were either employees of the insurance companies, or people who advertise on the internet and cite endorsements from fake "international auto appraisal" organizations for their credentials. There are a lot of scammers out there, beware. They'll gladly take your $400-500 for an appraisal and do nothing to help your case.

What broke me was when they presented their appraiser/arbitration as the "only option to continue," and that they were no longer willing to negotiate with me. I believe I was tricked. I really wish I had a gone and found a lawyer, or even made an appointment with the legal services department at my university. They were closed for some extended break at the time, unfortunately.

I was fortunate that I was not injured in the wreck -- those old sports cars are tin cans compared to anything on the road today. The sad part is, I think my settlement would have gone a lot smoother had I been injured somehow, even "injured" with something like whiplash that's commonly cited as a faux-injury. They asked me several times "are you sure you weren't injured?" I continued to tell the truth and say no, even though some acquaintances tried to refer me to a chiropractor/lawyer partnership to find something wrong with me and make a personal injury case out of it. Most of the attorneys out there are not interested in pure property damage cases like mine because there's no money in it for them. Honesty sure pays off, huh?

 

[adventr]

Wife and I have Nationwide on all of our vehicles/home. Our local agent saw my previous vehicle, and all of the mods I had done to it, so when I went to add my cruiser to our policy, he wrote it up with $3500 additional coverage for any parts I want to add to it. Pretty cool in my opinion. I didn't even ask for it or bring it up at all....

 

[BrotherRob]

They tried this with me as well. They told me "whatever they say is binding." They said I could get an appraiser of my own to represent me and that the two appraisers could "come to an understanding" and whatever they determined would be binding, and would be all I would get. If they said my Z was worth $500, that's what I'd get.

I looked VERY hard, and I could not find an appraiser in town who would deal with my Z. The only appraisers that seemed to be around were either employees of the insurance companies, or people who advertise on the internet and cite endorsements from fake "international auto appraisal" organizations for their credentials. There are a lot of scammers out there, beware. They'll gladly take your $400-500 for an appraisal and do nothing to help your case.

What broke me was when they presented their appraiser/arbitration as the "only option to continue," and that they were no longer willing to negotiate with me. I believe I was tricked. I really wish I had a gone and found a lawyer, or even made an appointment with the legal services department at my university. They were closed for some extended break at the time, unfortunately.

I was fortunate that I was not injured in the wreck -- those old sports cars are tin cans compared to anything on the road today. The sad part is, I think my settlement would have gone a lot smoother had I been injured somehow, even "injured" with something like whiplash that's commonly cited as a faux-injury. They asked me several times "are you sure you weren't injured?" I continued to tell the truth and say no, even though some acquaintances tried to refer me to a chiropractor/lawyer partnership to find something wrong with me and make a personal injury case out of it. Most of the attorneys out there are not interested in pure property damage cases like mine because there's no money in it for them. Honesty sure pays off, huh?

Appraisers work for the insurance industry, they are never on your side. They dropped the whole appraiser trick when I told them that I wouldn't agree to it without an attorney.

Your case shows why it is critical to know your rights. If they cover the vehicle, they have to settle with you. The laws are written to dictate settlement terms and protect the consumer. The best thing I ever did was to look up the rules and hold the insurance company to them.

 

[1FZj80]

Another option is to go directly after the driver who is at fault. If he/she has assets (like a house, etc…) deal directly with the driver. You have no obligation contractual or otherwise to negotiate with his insurance company. Tell the driver what you want and substantiate it. If he doesn’t cough up the $$, sue him. I did this with a lady that hit me after getting the run around from her insurance company. I won in court and then started legal action against her insurance company. Her insurance company paid her judgment liability immediately! If you can justify the value to a judge and you are not at fault, you are likely to get the $$ you are looking for. Things move a little faster when you have a court date!

 

[RTB falcon]

im glad im with USAA now

 

[FJRanger]

Well said, I've worked for one of the more reputable insurance companies out there in the past and this is exactly what I've witnessed. The only way to HOPE to get better treatment is to have multiple policies through one company whom ever it may be. I mean auto, home, life, business (if possible) this way they have more to loose if they don't treat you right. Ask your agent if there are any extra available coverages you can aide to cover all your extra equipment. I pay several hundred $'s a year more to cover only $5K (the most available) worth of extra equipment. Bottom line is be prepared to fight.

Best of luck and I hope resolution comes easily.

Before I bought my LC I got f***ed by my own insurance company on my mint '72 Datsun 240Z.

Got hit by a guy who literally had JUST arrived in the USA, he had no clue how to drive, and yet the state of Texas decided that his "for show" Singapore driver license was sufficient to grant him a TX DL. What a joke. Anyway, he failed to yield at an intersection, and I wound up with a no-rust never-been-wrecked mint condition 240Z with a crooked unibody -- totaled.

I thought (incorrectly) that I would get a straighter deal going through MY OWN insurance company (Allstate). I figured they would give me a good settlement, then it was their problem to get reimbursed by the other company, either by settlement or litigation. Thing is, your own insurance company is not on your side, regardless of what you have heard. They want you to take as low of a settlement as possible, because then it's far easier to get reimbursed by the company of the driver at fault and they don't have to waste time/money going to court.

Some people say "get control of the car ASAP," but in retrospect, I strongly disagree. If I had to do it over again, I would have had my Z left at the body shop I chose until we agreed on a total loss value (my right, as per Texas law). Body shops (especially the higher end ones, like I chose) charge a ridiculous amount for storage, on the order of $100s/day in some cases. By demanding my Z be brought home so I could "protect it" in my garage only meant that I lost all leverage for having the insurance company quickly agree to my terms. What happened next was a waiting game, and they won.

They first lowballed me with an insulting value of about 1/4 the market value as I ascertained it by looking at other sales and auction values from Barrett-Jackson, etc. I tried to hold out, but I'm a poor bastard in graduate school, and my dream car, my Z, was my only car. I needed that money, and I needed transportation. In the end I settled for about 1/2 of what I should have received.

Prior to this waiting game, I prepared myself as best I could do demonstrate the value of my car. I had printouts showing sales and professional appraisals of '72 240Zs in similar and even poorer condition than mine that were valued much higher than what I settled for.

I had receipts going back over the prior 8 years showing all the restoration work I had done, all the upgrades, etc. In the end, it was all a waste of time. The appraisal forms and sales figures were dismissed because they "use their own system" and did a "market value analysis" showing the average prices of "similar cars." What they used to justify their figures was ridiculous -- rusted out hulks being sold in Detroit (Japanese steel from back then would not hold up in a northern winter worth a damn) for $500. Lots of sales like this conveniently popped up in their figures to bring the average down to a laughable level.

The parts receipts were all dismissed as having been irrelevant because all the work had been done prior to 60 days in advance of the wreck, so their value was not factored into their "calculations." I had the original matching numbers engine completely rebuilt, only 8000 miles on it. Did that count? Hell no, because it was completed just over 3 years before the wreck (their time-limit on 'major work'), even though I kept that car in the garage and only drove it on nice days. Not even 3-4 oil changes on that motor.

I tried to buy the wreck back, thinking I'd put it in storage and use it as a parts car for my next Z project, but they came back to me with a ridiculous amount for the buyback price. I'd essentially not have enough money leftover to buy any kind of roadworthy vehicle to live my life. They claimed some salvage yard made that bid, but I can't shake the feeling that it was just a big "f**k you buddy" for putting up a fight.

Anyway, I learned a few lessons for when it's the OTHER guy's fault (for Texas laws, anyway, maybe similar in MO?):

1) Make sure your vehicle is sitting in the lot of YOUR body shop of choice, charging a good healthy storage/impound daily rate. It'll make it worth their while to go the extra mile and resolve your case quickly and to your satisfaction -- they can't close that case until you agree to their settlement, and the longer you wait, the more it's going to cost them. Throw in the expense of a rental car, all the better. I was stupid and declined taking a rental because I mistakenly thought the cost of the rental would reduce the size of the settlement I could get, and I figured I would be OK for the short term bike commuting. BIG MISTAKE. DO NOT let them move the car to their "body shop of choice" for an estimate. All this means is that they want to move it to a shop that doesn't charge them the daily storage fee, which kills your leverage on getting things taken care of quickly.

2) Wait them out. They want to close your case ASAP, and if you have (1) on lockdown, you have the upper hand. Reject their offers until they make you one you're satisfied with. When they give you a "true market value," demand to see their calculations, and how they arrived at that value. Demand to see detailed documentation on the vehicles they used for comparison (it could even be as few as ONE other vehicle). Be resolute in telling them their comparison is bulls**t, and exactly why -- point out all the differences, and how your car was FAR superior (I assure you, the example(s) they use will be a JOKE).

3) Go through the other guy's insurance, if only initially. I discovered the reason for this little gem when I went to change insurance companies afterward (I couldn't in good conscience stay with Allstate after how they hosed me, their own customer, with an impeccable driving record. Too many bitter feelings). If you file a claim with your insurance, even if it's the other guy's fault, it counts against you in the future. Yep. I applied to State Farm afterward, and apparently they make no distinction between at-fault and not-at-fault claims. My insurance rate now is significantly higher than it would have been if I had just gone through the other guy's insurance and kept it off mine.

4) Be prepared to say what you think your car is worth and what you deserve, very resolutely, and with confidence. Hell, even blow the figure up some, they probably will not give you exactly what you want, so overshoot it. Find whatever you can to justify your figure. Receipts, auction results, professional appraisals of similar vehicles, etc. This is primarily for ammunition in your waiting game, giving you a rationalization for your refusal of their lowball offers. DO NOT BACK DOWN.

You already have a lawyer in your corner, sounds like a good start. I wish I had that as a resource when I had my problem back in January.

Big hard lesson for me. I had always planned to get a classic car policy with an agreed-upon value, i.e. Haggerty. Unfortunately I never got around to buying a junker car to claim as my primary vehicle to qualify for a policy like that. Other guys in my club used Haggerty and had their Zs totaled, and they have drastically different stories to tell. Apparently they just said "yup, totaled" and mailed out a check for the full agreed-upon value. Afterward, they even helped them source cars and some parts for their next projects. Great service.

You know, you spend your whole life paying your insurance, on time, every month, and god forbid you miss a payment, because if you do, they will throw you to the wolves. The SECOND you need them to make good on their end of the contract you've been faithfully upholding your end of, they will fight you tooth and nail down to the very last penny. Doesn't matter how nice your agent is, hell, ours was the guy down the street where I grew up. All he does is sell you the policy. It's the faceless juggernaut of the insurance corporation that will be the one telling you "tough luck" when the time comes.

 

[dallen341]

It sounds like everyone on mud should post up a craigslist add to sell their truck every time a member has their cruiser totaled. The add should be highly inflated of course!

 

[Ebag333]

It sounds like everyone on mud should post up a craigslist add to sell their truck every time a member has their cruiser totaled. The add should be highly inflated of course!

I don't think that'd help, or is really necessary. These are still comping out at a pretty high value, I know that insurance comped both of mine out well over $10k ($12.5k for mine less than a year ago, not sure how much exactly for the a few months back).

The value assigned will depend heavily on state laws and the value of the vehicle in the area. So they won't care what an 80 sold for in another state or across the country.

Plus, what you suggest is a little something known as "insurance fraud." I know you're joking (or at least hope you are!), but even in jest the court system tends to frown rather heavily on that sort of thing.

 

[Wagnerwerks]

One other thing that I didn't know in my earlier years.... If you don't have full tort and you live in Pa or any other state that requires it to sue for pain and suffering, GET IT NOW. My wife and I were rear ended by a dude that was drunk and was "self insured" and could not sue for dealing with TONS of junk including him taking over a month to come up with insurance info. We waited 2 months for a settlement and ended up in court 6 times because it was a hit and run and he didn't show. HORRIBLE experience. I'm not in favor of frivolous lawsuits, but that would have saved us in the end.

 

[72RatCamaro]

!!!I DIDN'T READ PAST PAGE ONE!!!!


That said, I work in the collision industry and have for a good while now. If in an accident your vehicle needs to be returned to "preaccident condition" if you have an ARB thats your ARB and they owe it to you. Same with a total loss. They will go by market value. Including links from this site if need be. With it being State Farm they will probably want you to get it to one of there preferred shops. I am one of those shops. They will then write a complete estimate and then if it is over the value threshold will send up what is called a TLV (Total Loss Valuation) which will give them an idea of what to pay you. Don't give out a number first. EVER. Get there number and be ready to counter with your own number. I personally just glancing at the pictures don't see it as a total. But your pictures...kinda suck lol. But I see about 2500-3500 worth of damage right there. However could be worse that I can't see. But get an estimate first and go from there.



If this has all already been covered ignore the entire post. Any other questions just shoot me a message

 

[Ebag333]

But I see about 2500-3500 worth of damage right there. However could be worse that I can't see. But get an estimate first and go from there.

Bet it's more than that. My guess would be that the entire front clip (or at least all the bolt on portions) need to be replaced.

Cdan is good at estimating damage. He was only a few bucks off on mine, though it was simpler (rear quarter).

 

[BrotherRob]

The value assigned will depend heavily on state laws and the value of the vehicle in the area. So they won't care what an 80 sold for in another state or across the country.

State Farm attempted to validate mine based on national values. They claimed that there were 80 LCs sold in AZ in the past 6 months and the prices ranged from $3000 to $20000.
There had been only eight in the past year.

Ultimately, this is how I spanked them. At the time AZ prices on 80s were running ~$3500 higher that national or blue book prices. AZ law states that validation must be based on the local market. After pointing out that little dependency to the state insurance board, they were begging me to settle for about 30% more than the original offer.

 

[Ebag333]

State Farm attempted to validate mine based on national values. They claimed that there were 80 LCs sold in AZ in the past 6 months and the prices ranged from $3000 to $20000.
There had been only eight in the past year.

They were probably including wholesale auctions. The same vehicle might go through two or three auctions/transfers, each time it counts as a "sale" (would also explain the $3k price). So 8 vehicles sold from dealer to consumer could translate to 20-30 "sales" if you include wholesale auctions. Plus dealers sell vehicles back and forth all the time, they don't like them to sit on the lot for more than a month. I've seen the same vehicle hit two or three dealerships before getting sold to an actual customer, which jacks up the number of "sales." I'd be willing to bet that a bunch of AZ vehicles get shipped out of state too from those auctions (seems to be the case with a lot of the south western states).

Ultimately, this is how I spanked them. At the time AZ prices on 80s were running ~$3500 higher that national or blue book prices. AZ law states that validation must be based on the local market. After pointing out that little dependency to the state insurance board, they were begging me to settle for about 30% more than the original offer.

Doing your own research is key and irreplaceable. You are your own best advocate, and if you do not understand the local laws, regulations, and valuation, you're going to be selling yourself short.

 

[72RatCamaro]

Bet it's more than that. My guess would be that the entire front clip (or at least all the bolt on portions) need to be replaced.

Cdan is good at estimating damage. He was only a few bucks off on mine, though it was simpler (rear quarter).

Yeah without a better pic its hard for me to say. Hopefully it gets resolved.

 

[rustyemerson]

Well from the damages you’ve listed it seems that in most probably you Cruiser will get totaled. You should tell your insurance company and let them help you guide a good deal from the insurance company. That’s what your insurance is for anyways. If you’re not happy with them, then I’d suggest you find a better company. You’ll find plenty of car insurance quotes online. Hope it works out for you and your Cruiser!

 

[summers]

Hey, thanks everyone for posting to this thread with handy advice. The thread has gone a tad bit cold, so I thought I would try to warn it up with some updates.

The initial offer was ~$5200 due to it being a total loss. They offered to let me keep the vehicle with a non-salvage title by deducting ~$2050 or so. They also offered some sort of voucher to cover the sales tax.

I rejected their offer, rented a full size truck on their dime while I am preparing a 500 page document for delivery early in the coming week that details everything that has been done to the vehicle in the past 24 months, including a full engine and transmission/transfer case overhaul.

I am taking the approach 72RatCamero mentioned based on what I am stating was the so-called "pre-accident condition". This condition, I am arguing, was a full mechanical restoration, with significant modification to the body, suspension, and interior. Most of the work has been documented in receipts from dealerships for parts and labor totally around $8000 after I added everything up.

So, now that I have the proper ammunition, I plan to make what I see as a fair demand for the cost of a fully restored '94 fzj80, or ~$20,000. This value depends somewhat on the outstanding estimates I am waiting to receive from a couple shops that do this sort of work.

So, wish me luck and thanks for the words of support.

Summers

p.s. I think I have found a green, locked, leather '96 fzj80 as a replacement, if I can negotiate the price a little.