Correct, and the EPA has not done their testing yet, so these numbers will be updated later this year.
In real world, even with brand new engines, users are getting a decent amount better than that with the gas engine.
Ineos Grenadier (1 Viewer)
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In real world, even with brand new engines, users are getting a decent amount better than that with the gas engine.
Personally, I doubt it.
To get the rumored 50:1 CRAWL ratio in the IG, the FINAL DRIVE / axle ratio is around 3.85. That is higher than LC200 with 8-speed auto (3.307). The ZF transmission gear ratios are aggressive in the first 5 gears....so city driving in the IG will be quite wasteful.
The overdrive gears of the ZF are in line with LC's 8-speed automatic...but it's final drive ratio is significantly higher than LC's AND you add in the boxy G-wagen inspired shape (probably very poor drag coefficient), I can see pretty bad highway fuel economy...not far from the estimates above.
(Add in the low power output of THIS B58 engine and the 5800+ lbs curb weight and the aerodynamics of a brick = this powertrain will NEED to be pushed hard on the highway = bad fuel economy.)
So, same weight as LC + more aggressive ZF transmission ratios + IG's higher Final / Axle ratio + IG boxy design = probably overall worst fuel economy than LC.
(And if IG has smaller fuel tank [smaller than 24 gallons], then that means the RANGE will be pretty bad...worst than LC's already bad range....think Jeep Rubicon 392 range minus the power/speed!)
EDIT: and IF the range is pitiful like Rubicon 392...then why not just get Wrangler 392 and call it a day?
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Unless IG has invented some sort of warp drive to defy physics and math, it will be gas hungry, slow, and ponderous to drive on the road.
As a follow-up, in the main Ineos forum, members with gas engines are reporting between 20-24 mpg, although UK max speed is 70mph. Of course those #s are based on using imperial gallons, and when you adjust for the smaller U.S. gallon you get 16.6-19.98 based on what has been reported. I'd expect 15-19 will be about right, and this matches the prior info Ineos has in their original brochure (18mpg combined). I imagine the mileage will take a huge hit above 65-70mph due to the brick design.
With factory steel bumpers that isn't bad. With a bull bar, 2" lift, sliders and skids I average 15 in my 200. I'm guessing an IG will be similar with additional buildup.
And you are exactly right, car companies have been sued for overestimated numbers, so makes sense they would err this way.
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nuclearbeef
SILVER Star
I hope those numbers prove accurate. If it matches the milage of my 200 I'd be satisfied.
If it beats it, I'd be ecstatic.
Full disclosure, I have a position reserved for a Grenadier. Will most likely convert that into an order, though I haven't yet.
Definitely keep the 200, probably trade in the GX460.
nuclearbeef
SILVER Star
Apparently they did invent said warp drive for the MPG number for highway and city to match exactly.
I expect it to be gas hungry. I also expect it to beat 15 MPG.
As for slow and ponderous, I have no problem driving my 4500++ lb Troopy with all of 90 hp. I think the Grenadier's performance will be adequate.
It is all relative. Some people feel that LC needs supercharger.
I expect IG 0-60 to be around 9.0 - 9.5. If that is fast for you then great. But it will likely be the slowest thing costing above $80k in USA…well i am sure that it will be faster than Unimog.
What's the value proposition? 80K+ same weight as a 200, 100 less horsepower, worse mileage, slower, terrible turning radius, BMW engine, unproven reliability/durability, unknown US support network, BMW engine....
Aside form the novelty of it being new why would anyone even consider this?
Price start at $73k. Newish used 200s are going for over $100k.
The relatively new B58 has shown to be very reliable (unlike the n55), some hitting close to 200k miles already basically trouble free. The Supra crowd abuses it on the track, and has surpassed the Honda engines for track reliability.
I've always been a big fan of straight six engines. The B58 in the IG has been detuned, so I expect it to last even longer.
The IG has some unknowns, built in a good factory (made G-Wagons before Ineos purchase) but it is a quiet ride (unlike Jeep), comfortable factory Recaro seats (wish that was an option in the 200!), with SFA, steel bumpers, great approach, departure, triple locked and winch from the factory, an RTI score better than the Wrangler (both with sway bar on) etc. It is basically the rig I wish Toyota would make and sell in the U.S., so I will support the effort. Ideally it will be like an old Defender but of higher quality. Time will tell.
I don't think it's $73k triple locked with a winch. When I priced out how I would want it, total came to $93k.
"Newish used 200s are going for over $100k."
Where?
Used Toyota Land Cruiser for Sale in Colorado Springs, CO - CarGurus
Used Lexus LX for Sale in Colorado Springs, CO - CarGurus
No, that is the starting price, but you can add the f/r lockers and K02s (rough pack) and be at $74,350. Yes, when you start adding everything it adds up!
SOLD - NOBLESVILLE, INDIANA: 2021 Land Cruiser Heritage - BUILT
Updated photos today. Also, recorded a new video which will be on YouTube in a few days. I sold this 2021 Heritage Edition Land Cruiser overland build new in March 2021 to a gentleman in Houston Texas who wanted it for the summer to travel the National Parks with his two teen sons. The build...
forum.ih8mud.com
Per Eric Sarjeant:
"...have seen two base-model (sub 200 mile) 2021's sell at Bentley Indianapolis for $101,000 in the past month. I know this because both customers had us pick them up and build them."
And screenshots per cars.com. when you start putting 20k+ miles the price drops a bit. Car prices (and everything else) have gone insane.
I picked up my 2016 in 2018 with 30k miles and a 100k mile Toyota warranty for $53k.
i have a deposit on one... but probably going to fade on it.
its what LR should have built but its not a LR, so i think it will be great for a while and then fade into santana status.. i'm not convinced about long term support nor easy serviceability. it really does drive like a defender however. i do like it, but against my paid for 200, i can buy a lot for the 30k delta
its what LR should have built but its not a LR, so i think it will be great for a while and then fade into santana status.. i'm not convinced about long term support nor easy serviceability. it really does drive like a defender however. i do like it, but against my paid for 200, i can buy a lot for the 30k delta
Asking price is way different from the sale price. So you cited two 200 hundreds that sold for 101, there are dozens that I linked to (both 200 and LXs) well under 100K LOL Also, most of the pics you posted are of Heritage editions LCs, 1 base model and not a single LX . Again, you posted asking prices not sale prices.SOLD - NOBLESVILLE, INDIANA: 2021 Land Cruiser Heritage - BUILT
Updated photos today. Also, recorded a new video which will be on YouTube in a few days. I sold this 2021 Heritage Edition Land Cruiser overland build new in March 2021 to a gentleman in Houston Texas who wanted it for the summer to travel the National Parks with his two teen sons. The build...
Per Eric Sarjeant:
"...have seen two base-model (sub 200 mile) 2021's sell at Bentley Indianapolis for $101,000 in the past month. I know this because both customers had us pick them up and build them."
And screenshots per cars.com. when you start putting 20k+ miles the price drops a bit. Car prices (and everything else) have gone insane.
I picked up my 2016 in 2018 with 30k miles and a 100k mile Toyota warranty for $53k.
View attachment 3339743
View attachment 3339744
2013 Toyota Land Cruiser for sale on BaT Auctions - sold for $52,000 on June 3, 2023 (Lot #109,375) | Bring a Trailer
34k-Mile 2008 Toyota Land Cruiser URJ200 for sale on BaT Auctions - sold for $50,000 on May 31, 2023 (Lot #109,035) | Bring a Trailer
2020 Toyota Land Cruiser URJ200 for sale on BaT Auctions - closed on February 25, 2023 (Lot #99,438) | Bring a Trailer
No Reserve: Modified 2016 Toyota Land Cruiser URJ200 for sale on BaT Auctions - sold for $81,500 on February 14, 2023 (Lot #98,412) | Bring a Trailer
No Reserve: 2014 Lexus LX570 for sale on BaT Auctions - sold for $46,250 on March 23, 2023 (Lot #101,783) | Bring a Trailer
No Reserve: 2008 Lexus LX570 for sale on BaT Auctions - sold for $31,000 on July 19, 2022 (Lot #79,095) | Bring a Trailer
No Reserve: 2008 Lexus LX570 for sale on BaT Auctions - sold for $30,500 on July 8, 2022 (Lot #78,130) | Bring a Trailer
Take your L and move on.
WTF. I said newish 200s are selling for 100k+. And that is true. I candidly have not paid any attention to newer LX prices, as I don't have any interest in them.
First your links in your prior post sent me to random non-LC listings, likely a function of the website, but the links didn't direct me to LCs.
Then Your response to me stating like new LCs are around $100k is to show me a bunch of 8 yr+ old vehicle sales with the closest to new (2020 w 24k miles-or 2 yrs worth of driving based on averages didn't sell at auction). Well bravo, you got me.
Yes, I'd expect that the Heritage are sought after, but they also account for 1/3 of the LCs sold as last model yr cruisers in the U.S, and account for a large majority of the very low mileage 21s for sale right now. This one with 3700 miles sold for $122k plus buyer fees:
2021 Toyota Land Cruiser URJ200 Heritage Edition
Bid for the chance to own a 2021 Toyota Land Cruiser URJ200 Heritage Edition at auction with Bring a Trailer, the home of the best vintage and classic cars online. Lot #106,553.
I'll reiterate, the Cruisers that are still out there, and as new, as in a few thousand miles-not 5-10 years old with 24k+miles, are selling right around $100k. In some cases, substantially more.
You keep on doing you kid. I'll definitely move on though.
@40Man
Not worth arguing with madtiger and slipkid, we're on the wrong forum to get any constructive feedback.
I'm stoked on it, and like you said, there's some elements that only time will tell but I'm putting in my order. If people didn't think outside the box and try something new, we'd still be using horse and buggy. I'm sure people thought Toyota was crazy when they first created the Land Cruiser, and look where we are now.
Not worth arguing with madtiger and slipkid, we're on the wrong forum to get any constructive feedback.
I'm stoked on it, and like you said, there's some elements that only time will tell but I'm putting in my order. If people didn't think outside the box and try something new, we'd still be using horse and buggy. I'm sure people thought Toyota was crazy when they first created the Land Cruiser, and look where we are now.
Idaho Savage
GOLD Star
This.
I feel like folks get defensive around here because there's a new kid on the block. I am stoked that some British billionaire is investing time and money into a new platform. A rising tide lifts all boats or whatever... Competition is good and more consumer options are also good. With Toyota arguably softening the US LC platform, I am happy someone else is attempting to step in.
I think competition is good too. On the flip side though, unproven is simply that...unproven. Props to the early adopters, but that isn't a train I like to ride.
If manufacturers (even Toyota) have growing pains when they release an updated model using mostly already proven components, the chances for a totally new model and manufacturer not having even more growing pains is pretty much zero.
If manufacturers (even Toyota) have growing pains when they release an updated model using mostly already proven components, the chances for a totally new model and manufacturer not having even more growing pains is pretty much zero.