Ineos Grenadier

[Madtiger]

Wards 10 best list is a joke. They promote technology. So they reward new technology and advancements, not durability and/or reliability. There is no long-term test at all to be on that list!

Wards is like magazines promoting Yugos or Pinto as class-leading. Yeah, on paper, they were (in a twisted sorted way). But in reality, they were just pure s***.

(Same magazine folks who probably praise Hyundais and Kias…but look underneath, it is cheap as heck.)

Now, if you’re into technology and coolness, then great. But I ASS-U-ME that most of us here care about quality and durability (otherwise, why would we own a dinosaur LC200?!). I would not be caught dead in any vehicle with a BMW powertrain. Been there, done that. Sorry. (2003.5 BMW M3 former owner. That M3 engine was the toast of the town at one point…POS with ownership.)

 

[onemanarmy]

the LC200 has FARRRRRR too much tech.

no screen, a manual T case lever, and mechanical locker, no air springs, no 17 ECUs for 'terrain modes', and then we could call it a Land Cruiser

The grenadier got to the 1 yard line and fumbled the ball.....they included a screen. They were SO CLOSE!

 

[40Man]

The B58 is still relatively new, but have been very reliable to date. Toyota liked it enough to put it in the Supra.

The rubber gasket in the integrated valve cover seems to harden around 100k miles, and the PCV valve is integrated, so likely a new valve cover at 100k miles. Easy fix with a $200ish part.

There are reports of faulty coolant caps that need to be replaced.

VANOS solenoids are known to give out on any VANOS engine, but I believe they are easy to access under the valve cover (need a special BMW socket evidently)

Before I put down a deposit I read a lot on the Bimmer forums. There are a number of posters with over 100k miles and at least one over 220k miles all with minor or no issues.

I tend to trust inline 6 engines.

The Cruisers 5.7 V8 is very reliable, but we see a lot of similar small issues here (cam tower oil leak, coolant leak, radiator, w/p, etc.

Don't get me wrong, I'd prefer a Toyota version of the Grenadier, I'd be one of the few happily paying $70k+ for a new 70 series in the states.

 

[40Man]

the LC200 has FARRRRRR too much tech.

no screen, a manual T case lever, and mechanical locker, no air springs, no 17 ECUs for 'terrain modes', and then we could call it a Land Cruiser

The grenadier got to the 1 yard line and fumbled the ball.....they included a screen. They were SO CLOSE!

True, I'd prefer manual gauges, but understand why they did it, integrating everything (speedometer, etc) into that center screen, but it will make replacement options tricky.

 

[onemanarmy]

Just slap some speedhut gauges in there. Digital, reliable, cheap ,and easy to update or replace.

 

[bloc]

We used to have diesel’s ironed out pretty good it seems. Now they are unreliable again?

When they produced a whole lot of NOx and therefore smog, yes.

The systems required to make diesel exhaust not burn your respiratory tract must do so in some pretty bad temperature/vibration/chemical conditions, it’s not surprising they are unreliable.

For anyone saying it isn’t necessary on a broad scale, go spend some time in Cusco, Peru and see if you feel the same way.

 

[40Man]

Just slap some speedhut gauges in there. Digital, reliable, cheap ,and easy to update or replace.

I don't disagree. But the truth is, these touch screens are fairly inexpensive to manufacture, and likely cheaper to acquire than all the standard gauges and features it is replacing. I don't mind having the features, but do like the simplicity, cost and ease of repairing analog items.

The screen supports phone, stereo features, cameras offroad features (angles etc), gear selection, speed, temp, odo, tach, fuel gauge, temp, etc., all in one unit.

As a consumer, I want manual/analog and simple. I miss easy to swap double din stereos. I just understand why they did it. At least it isn't controlled with a joystick!

It also doesn't need a push button start, but they are including some modern conveniences which I am sure will help with sales overall. Still, I like their approach overall. Imagine if Toyota had designed the FJ Cruiser like this. They did a few things great, and a number of things not so great.

 

[onemanarmy]

Yes, I understand. Unfortunately.

I still think they could have added $200-$500 to the price of the vehicle with separate gauges and a separate double DIN radio (all from reputable 3rd party vendors that the end consumer could add/change/adjust easily) and sold just as many. Maybe more.

 

[Flight2k5]

Didnt Dodge do the same thing? They just didnt get fined like VW?

In other countries they have both a gas and diesel option. The us will only get the gas engine. At least from what I read. Unfortunately.

BMW ENGINES​

Both the BMW B57 diesel and B58 petrol powertrains have a proven track record. Regularly appearing in top 10 world’s best engine lists since 2016 and used in everything from sports cars to SUVs. Add our 1.8 million kilometres of tough testing to fine tune them for the Grenadier’s specific needs, and you can be sure of a rock solid, reliable and durable engine designed to do the job.​

I blame VW for the nail in the coffin on consumer diesel automobiles in the US. My wife is still irate about the "environmentally friendly" diesel golf we had that they cheated on to for emissions and got caught. She refuses to buy VW anymo

 

[GordJ]

When they produced a whole lot of NOx and therefore smog, yes.

The systems required to make diesel exhaust not burn your respiratory tract must do so in some pretty bad temperature/vibration/chemical conditions, it’s not surprising they are unreliable.

For anyone saying it isn’t necessary on a broad scale, go spend some time in Cusco, Peru and see if you feel the same way.

I’m the opposite of a diesel fan but the 3 days I spent in Cusco did nothing to add to my dislike of diesels. Is the smog bad there sometimes?

 

[bloc]

I’m the opposite of a diesel fan but the 3 days I spent in Cusco did nothing to add to my dislike of diesels. Is the smog bad there sometimes?

Yes. And it’s really worst case between the altitude and topography.. but just walking around that town I’d get big gulps of diesel exhaust smell.

NOx is a major factor in smog production and reducing that is the job of the lesser known part of these systems, the SCR. High-flow EGR also. The black smoke/soot is handled by the DPF / diesel particulate filter.

I drive a fire truck for work and the cab layout combined with occasional before-treatment exhaust related mechanical issue can mean having to drive with the windows down despite working AC.. that or putting on a SCBA as a joke. But it is not a good smell. And this is just from a tiny leak being mixed into the radiator airflow at 60mph.

Even gasoline exhaust not treated by a catalytic converter can be pretty nasty, diesel is worse in my experience.

 

[jgallo1]

I just read through all 6 pages of this thread. I see a solid amount of pros/cons being listed, which is good for new products brought to market.

The way I look at this is:
Most modern vehicles being branded as " Offroad or Overland " by dealers are BS. In fact, what most people actually do with their 50-60k vehicles and 20k of mods, they could have done with a stock 4x4 and some decent tires. ( I will keep it positive from here on out)

There are definitely a few vehicles that live up to the hype or get close enough. Not all, but quite a few of these vehicles require a handsomely priced specialty package, longer lead times, and sometimes after-market products.
I think it is pretty awesome that someone is actually trying to bring to market a vehicle that has all the things we love about our 20-30 yrs old vehicles with the comfort of modern vehicles. I love my 80 series, I think it's an amazing truck that has excellent road manners. It is light years above the 60 I owned, the 87 pick up, and even the 1st gen tacoma in my opinion. My 80 is in immaculate shape ( it has cost an immaculate amount to get it there). I still worry about it, it's almost 30 yrs old! I also love my 6.7 Ford F250 extended cab. It has a front-locking manual hubs, and a center locker, it's a beast offroad. It's heavy and big and gets stuck easily. I drive offroad for work, on some s***ty roads. Trust me, I would rather drive my 80 or a 1st gen tacoma at work. I think the Ineos, size will be awesome. I don't think I could actually use it for work.

Yes, the 200 is awesome, but it is not being made anymore. Landcruiser has time on its side, to have been able to get to the 200. You can still get a new / older toyota that will have issues. I would say this is true for every company. Will Ineos have some growing pains, I am sure they will. Hopefully, they can bring a solid utilitarian vehicle to market. Especially for us in the USA. Ram used to offer a pretty Ulitarian package on the tradesman and then you could add the power wagon package. This is what a lot of the forest service uses. You can still get a tradesman with the power wagon package, I dont think it has a manual 4x4/ handbrake/ stripped down interior anymore. I know the Ineos and Ram are not comparable, it was the only truck I could really think of that came with that offering. Ford/ toyota/ chevy did away with this along time ago.

A good friend of mine ( he just quit) for the last decade has been one of the lead UX designers at BMW. He has done nothing but sing the praises of the B58. He also has told me that BMW is still one of the few companies that test its gas engines to between 300k He told me most modern vehicle manufacturers especially in the USA market only test to 150k.

I am personally looking forward to the Ineos. Will, I sell my 80 and buy the 1st edition probably not. I think it will be pretty cool if this becomes a competitor in the vehicle market. I would happily drive one, once we see where it stands.

 

[stonepa]

the LC200 has FARRRRRR too much tech.

no screen, a manual T case lever, and mechanical locker, no air springs, no 17 ECUs for 'terrain modes', and then we could call it a Land Cruiser

The grenadier got to the 1 yard line and fumbled the ball.....they included a screen. They were SO CLOSE!

They still sell FJ60s. That would be my choice. Or is my choice as I still have mine after 37 years.

 

[onemanarmy]

They still sell FJ60s. That would be my choice. Or is my choice as I still have mine after 37 years.

who does? new? cause that would be awesome.

How great would it be if the Grenadier had a 4.8 LS (with no AFM, no direct injection, drive by cable, no start stop......circa 2005 model year) and a 4L80 and some cheap autometer gauges? The thing would last forever and not get any less MPG in the real world.

It is nice to have the most modern crash structure safety tech, nice seats, and a quiet cabin, things that a new vehicle allows, not a 40 year old FJ60.

 

[stonepa]

who does? new? cause that would be awesome.

How great would it be if the Grenadier had a 4.8 LS (with no AFM, no direct injection, drive by cable, no start stop......circa 2005 model year) and a 4L80 and some cheap autometer gauges? The thing would last forever and not get any less MPG in the real world.

It is nice to have the most modern crash structure safety tech, nice seats, and a quiet cabin, things that a new vehicle allows, not a 40 year old FJ60.

Not new but realistically a refreshed FJ60 fits the description. Crash structures? Now you are asking for perfection.

 

[Madtiger]

Like Bud Light, I think that Ineos need to have a celebrity, like Dylan Mulvaney, promote the vehicle….

 

[rlynch356]

I am going for the test drive session on the 14th.. I do have an order in, but the jury is still out.
I'll drive my defender since it is the closet to the Grenadier, and I know the venue very well.

I am mostly concerned with the driveline mechanicals, I am a fan of the solid axle design for off road. And I am very interested to see if the quality overall is better than the early prototypes I have seen on a few occasions. It should be given these are closer to production models.

The dash and screen don't bother me, I do wish it had a speedo in front of the driver but whatever. there really isn't much their that interests me other than the temps and levels of stuff. I'm glad it has a radio and can do car play but I drive a defender 90 (a classic one) so thats a bonus to me.. in my 90 you can't hear the radio anyway.

the engine and transmission are fine, no issues there from me. ZF is well known and proven, the B58 is a detuned version of what seems to be a very reliable engine.

For 90% of people I don't see this as a LC200 competitor (or 300 /Lexus for that matter) since its a totally different animal.
Unfortunately most of them will go to people whom really should buy something else, and they will be over it as soon as the "IT" factor wears off.

My plan if I do order it is to basically have 2 main options - Lockers and the Switch panel thing... and some rubber floor mats..
everything else is superfluous to my needs.
I will say if a lifting roof is released for them that will swing my interest to it.. otherwise I'm probably looking at a truck since its time to get something that I can live in while camping if needed.

I want something with Reliability, good load capacity, and good off road. My LC200 is hard to beat there, so that will be the decision.
My D90 will continue to tackle the harder stuff.

 

[onemanarmy]

Asking for perfection? Hardly. All cars, includeing the new Grenadier, have a modern safe crash structure. Not asking for anything new.

A proven, easy to work on, drivetrain in a modern designed crash structure with a manual tcase (they have this), a mech. locker, 4 simple gauges and a double din radio. This could be done.

Modern cars benefit from modern metals, modern suspension geometry, new glass, all new updated seals, better seat tech, and modern HVAC. A refresshed 60 can't get to this level....and the ones that try are $250k+.

A small LS and 4l80 / 6l80 instead of the BMW and turbos would have made this truck ALMOST perfect with no added cost with a longer lifespan.

They fumbled on the 1 yard line.

 

[chilibit]

At the risk of being contrarian, I think there is a risk that we confuse the goal with the journey. The Grenadier is a goal and that is one way to look at it. It should have this or not that. The ownership on the other hand is a journey and most stories do not relate how wonderful things went. They are stories about bad or worse. Do Yugo drivers have stories. You bet. And a lot of smiles even when they try to shock you. If your resources or courage permit, this might be a journey opportunity. The Defender was good. The Defender was bad. The Defender could be a journey with the right attitude. The trucks rust away and we are left with stories and memories.

 

[bloc]

At the risk of being contrarian, I think there is a risk that we confuse the goal with the journey. The Grenadier is a goal and that is one way to look at it. It should have this or not that. The ownership on the other hand is a journey and most stories do not relate how wonderful things went. They are stories about bad or worse. Do Yugo drivers have stories. You bet. And a lot of smiles even when they try to shock you. If your resources or courage permit, this might be a journey opportunity. The Defender was good. The Defender was bad. The Defender could be a journey with the right attitude. The trucks rust away and we are left with stories and memories.

Seems a fair bit of a modern defender journey is spent on a flat bed wrecker..

If only there were a way to report those miles on the carfax..