Ignition? (10 Viewers)

[procomsignathid]

Are you able to get it idling? What kind of RPM / vacuum reading do you have if so?

 

[Tigger72]

Are you able to get it idling? What kind of RPM / vacuum reading do you have if so?

Yes, so happy it's now idling. And vacuum has been on my mind. RPM fluxs. Not really stable. When setting timing I've tried to keep it where it floats between 650 and 675. As said, t's not very stable in this current situation. I have an old vacuum tester rhat came from my father with the rig, and when I attached it to the intake port, I only read 6in. That seems so low, I dont know if I trust the meter. I did spray carb cleaner (all i have at the moment) around the base of the carb, along the manifold. And around the brake booster looking for a boosted idol speed, but it was stable. Where else could I look? Is there a better place to check vacuum?

 

[procomsignathid]

Where are you testing vacuum? I pull straight from the top of the air intake manifold just forward of the carb (should be a port there).

6in is way low… if you dont trust the tool they are not too spendy (I got mine for around $30 at Napa).

When you look into the top of the carb while its idling, do you see fuel spraying in from the venturi? (You shouldn’t, idle circuit should be the fuel source during idle).

 

[Tigger72]

Where are you testing vacuum? I pull straight from the top of the air intake manifold just forward of the carb (should be a port there).

6in is way low… if you dont trust the tool they are not too spendy (I got mine for around $30 at Napa).

When you look into the top of the carb while its idling, do you see fuel spraying in from the venturi? (You shouldn’t, idle circuit should be the fuel source during idle).

Yah... a new vacuum tester is the next purchase because I agree it seems suspect that its reading that low but still running. I was testing from the port on the manifold front of the carb in the #1 plug direction. I have not looked into the carb while idoling except for making sure the accelerator pump was working, which it was. It does start now, cold (after sitting in 90deg ambient air temp) without a pump of the gas pedal which is cool.

 

[Tigger72]

I fully understand this thread is dying, but id like to toss out a last question based on the electronic ignition retro fit. Would a pertronix be able to work past other failures in the dizzy i migjt need to address? If so, which ones? I understand so far, it would eliminate the ballest and the points of course. Would excessive run- out in the armature be ok? Would the mechanical advance and the vacuum retard be needed? Just wondering, if my dizzy went bad in an unknown way, what would the 200$ retro-fit solve? Other then a vacuum check past what I have done, as mentioned earlier with carb cleaner, hat else should I look forward to?

Thank you!

 

[procomsignathid]

I think its important to rule things out one at a time. I don't know enough to answer your questions re: pertronix, but the vacuum test will tell you a ton of info just by itself. If you are planning on going that route anyway because you don't want to deal with dizzy points, I would still hold off on loading up the parts cannon until you can get conclusive data that leads you in a specific direction. Too many variables at once and you'll chase your tail.

 

[Tigger72]

I think its important to rule things out one at a time. I don't know enough to answer your questions re: pertronix, but the vacuum test will tell you a ton of info just by itself. If you are planning on going that route anyway because you don't want to deal with dizzy points, I would still hold off on loading up the parts cannon until you can get conclusive data that leads you in a specific direction. Too many variables at once and you'll chase your tail.

It's been a long process between running well, to figuring out what's going on now, so I completely agree. Can you help me with the vacuum route? I do need to get a new tester... but when I do, and I connect it to the port on the intake manifold and say I get a low reading, where are all the places i should investigate? I sprayed carb cleaner (out of starter fluid and read its a fine replacement) at the base of the carb, top of the intake/exaust manifold, and around the brake booster. As far as tubes go, they are fairly new so i trust them but are associated with the evap system which I've been told I can just cap off and forget in this model. The rough road that started this issue could have bumped something loose, but what might that be? The carb gaskets are new except for the base, but they were in good shape. Leaky side panel?

 

[CruiserInProgress]

I think its important to rule things out one at a time. I don't know enough to answer your questions re: pertronix, but the vacuum test will tell you a ton of info just by itself. If you are planning on going that route anyway because you don't want to deal with dizzy points, I would still hold off on loading up the parts cannon until you can get conclusive data that leads you in a specific direction. Too many variables at once and you'll chase your tail.

Ditto.

Best to get back to basics of engine troubleshooting rather than the shotgun approach taken thus far. I don't think the distributor / Pertronix upgrade will be the answer, especially when you haven't yet solved the low voltage issue feeding it.

If you don't have the time or patience for step-by-step troubleshooting, it might be a good investment to get a mechanic involved to get over the current not running at all hump, then tweak things after that...one bit at a time.

 

[charliemeyer007]

Armature are in electric motors, but I don't know what the name is of the shafts in a dizzy are called either right off the hand..
The dizzy starts with the cam gear - there can be wear here. There is a bearing/bushing than can wear. Then another shaft with a bearing/bushing joins it and some sort of plate that holds the points. It rotates a little to provide timing adjustment by weights or vacuum advance/retard. It was like 20 years ago I took my dizzy apart. I bought a cheap Amoron chinesium Delco to put in so I can rebuild mine.

I doubt replacing the points with magnetic pickup is going to fix all the other wear points.

 

[Tigger72]

Ditto.

Best to get back to basics of engine troubleshooting rather than the shotgun approach taken thus far. I don't think the distributor / Pertronix upgrade will be the answer, especially when you haven't yet solved the low voltage issue feeding it.

If you don't have the time or patience for step-by-step troubleshooting, it might be a good investment to get a mechanic involved to get over the current not running at all hump, then tweak things after that.

Patience has been tested, but as my wifes family has said, my level of patience is unreal! Haha.

I dont think I have a low voltage issue anymore.

Armature are in electric motors, but I don't know what the name is of the shafts in a dizzy are called either right off the hand..
The dizzy starts with the cam gear - there can be wear here. There is a bearing/bushing than can wear. Then another shaft with a bearing/bushing joins it and some sort of plate that holds the points. It rotates a little to provide timing adjustment by weights or vacuum advance/retard. It was like 20 years ago I took my dizzy apart. I bought a cheap Amoron chinesium Delco to put in so I can rebuild mine.

I doubt replacing the points with magnetic pickup is going to fix all the other wear points.

Thanks, and I call it an a armature because I dont know what else to. It the thing in the middle that spins! Haha The lobes dont have much wear by feel. I dont think it will solve it either with the rapid degrade. Unless something in the dizzy shook loose, where i can't see and havnt read about, not sure. I do think in the long term, once its running, it would be a good and basic upgrade though.

 

[CruiserInProgress]

I can relate to your current situation, but from a different starting point.

Over a year ago, I started my quest of trying to get my 79 running after more than a decade of sitting and abuse before that.

I tackled one bit at a time (fuse block, ignition switch, distributor, carburetor, vacuum, fuel tank, back to the distributor, wiring harness), hoping, at each step, that would solve the "not running" problem.

Well, eventually, those steps incrementally improved things to the point that it finally starts easily and runs pretty well, allowing me to focus on the rest of the drive train.

However, along the way, a project that was intended to be "fun", became pretty frustrating at times. It's those times, I stepped back, compared notes with a buddy, and returned refreshed, with a plan.

Anyway, my point here is keep at it and don't get discouraged. It's all part of the learning process, and can be pretty darn satisfying when you succeed, even with help along the way.

Good luck!

PS - I missed a few of your posts and didn't realize you had gotten it running. Congrats!

 

[procomsignathid]

Re: vacuum testing:

I used some YT vids to get an idea of what the vacuum gauge is telling me. Apparently you can identify a lot of different conditions based on that reading and how it changes over time / with throttle blips.

This one was very helpful:

 

[Tigger72]

I can relate to your current situation, but from a different starting point.

Over a year ago, I started my quest of trying to get my 79 running after more than a decade of sitting and abuse before that.

I tackled one bit at a time (fuse block, ignition switch, distributor, carburetor, vacuum, fuel tank, back to the distributor, wiring harness), hoping, at each step, that would solve the "not running" problem.

Well, eventually, those steps incrementally improved things to the point that it finally starts easily and runs pretty well, allowing me to focus on the rest of the drive train.

However, along the way, a project that was intended to be "fun", became pretty frustrating at times. It's those times, I stepped back, compared notes with a buddy, and returned refreshed, with a plan.

Anyway, my point here is keep at it and don't get discouraged. It's all part of the learning process, and can be pretty darn satisfying when you succeed, even with help along the way.

Good luck!

Thank you and I truely love your sentiment because: My father purchased this vehicle new in '72. My mother was delivered to the hospital in it to surprisingly give birth to me a month early early during a trash run during a blizzard in '76 in this vehicle. My brother and I stood in the back over a class 3 road to get brunch on random Sundays in the town next to us. Then It was used as a "wheel barrow" for many years and "pastured" or used to drive a boat from colorado to Minnesota or take the same boat to the launch at lake McConaughey in Nebraska, and what I learned to drive when I was 13 on those sand dunes in that McConaughey state park. It was my everyday driver from high-school to early college. As my brother has said, this FJ is in my DNA . I love it and very proud to have it in my driveway, running or not. But I truly feel alive when im driving it. I love learning every inch of it and will never give up on it! This process has been frustrating, but only because I can't drive it!

 

[CruiserInProgress]

Great history! Thanks for sharing.

 

[Tigger72]

Ok, had some time this afternoon and pulled some numbers to close some of these questions for continuing diagnosis! Happy almost 4th all!

Here we go....

Power
Battery: 13.3V
Top to bottom ballest: 1.5 ohms
At idol: + on ballest 12.8-13V
Add engine speed: + on ballest 13-14 ish V
At idol: + on coil, ground to batt 9.5V
+ Coil to - Coil: 1.8 ohms

Vacuum
At intake nipple with new tester: 15 in hg. Can't find a standard in my FSM but from a web search, saw 18-21 in hg @ is the range at sea level. I read to subtract 1 in hg per 1000 feet of elevation, im at 5,500 feet, so id be at 20.5 at sea level. So good!?

I feel like I answered the voltage and vacuum questions, (please let me know if i missed anything to check) so I moved on in similer directions to find more tells.

To eliminate factors, I capped the vacuum retard diaphram on the dizzy and the nipple on the intake as i dont know if this evap system works and went down this rabbit hole over a month ago. In a different thread. I was told this unique system on this particular month and year can just be capped and forgotten about.

To keep going, and since I had a more reliable pressure gage, I tried a suggestion in other post I found involving setting timing with only vacuum. It said to set timing where pressure is the greatest. Tried that. Though I could advance to 16 in hg from the earlier 15, it wasn't really stable, so I backed off till it was stable and landed back on close to 15 in hg at 11 deg advance which I've read and felt earlier as correct for this elevation. Either way, tried it, and didn't run any better advanced to 16 in. That landed me on a timing of 16 deg btdc. Put it back.

Big afternoon of research! I also put the dwell meter back on it and here is what I found. dwell 35 @ gap .45mm and 36 @ gap .35 mm (as close as I could get by feeler guage) I didn't have a second set of hands to turn it over and set it as in the video sent a couple days ago, but if im getting a deg per .1mm, im not going to get to 41. Is this a tell? I have set gap many times by hand in the past, so I dont think this is the main issue.

Well there is more data to chew on. Can I cross voltage and vacuum off the list? Next direction, carb if so? Could the dizzy be bad in a different way?

I greatly appreciate your thoughts and time to help me! Thank you!

 

[procomsignathid]

Wow, you gathered a ton of data! I think you can rule out vacuum, thats right about where I'm at around 5000’ of elevation.

What is your idle RPM? Do you have a tach you can clip on to one of spark plug leads? Do you have to pull the choke to keep it running stably? Hows the fuel level in the carb window when idling? And lastly do you see a spray of fuel from the venturi when you look in the carb?

A high RPM needed to idle, fuel coming from the venturi at idle or needing to use choke to keep it idling could all indicate a clogged idle circuit in the carb. I think you already cleared the idle solenoid, right? (You should hear a click when you turn the truck from accessory to On).

 

[Tigger72]

Wow, you gathered a ton of data! I think you can rule out vacuum, thats right about where I'm at around 5000’ of elevation.

What is your idle RPM? Do you have a tach you can clip on to one of spark plug leads? Do you have to pull the choke to keep it running stably? Hows the fuel level in the carb window when idling? And lastly do you see a spray of fuel from the venturi when you look in the carb?

A high RPM needed to idle, fuel coming from the venturi at idle or needing to use choke to keep it idling could all indicate a clogged idle circuit in the carb. I think you already cleared the idle solenoid, right? (You should hear a click when you turn the truck from accessory to On).

It was a good data day! Motivation was high and inwas dun working! Ha

To answer some of your questions:

I did upgrade my timing light to a digital advanced so easily see my rpm. With theb"wholesale" replacement of parts, I can start it "cold" with no pumps of the pedal and only need the throttle advance in the choke pull system to keep it running for a minute or two. No choke needed at 90deg ambient air temp right now. I keep my idle set at just uphill of, but close to 650 in all these tests. It's not consistent right now, but I adjust it to bounce between 650 and 675.

In my carb "rebuild" i was able to get the fuel level in the bowl to middle of the window when running.

I still havnt looked in the carb when running other then making sure fuel would spray from the pump, and it does.

Yes, I hear a click from the idle seloniod when I power it up.

Right now, other then fluxuating rpm, it idles when warm and super slow and rough when cold. But idles.

There has always been a question about the carb (for decades) not saying thats the main issue, but a thought. I was hoping to address that with the "rebuild". But, though I have rebuilt many small engine carbs, this was my first car carb... did I miss something?

 

[Tigger72]

So a week off for adulting.... but back at it. I did the last "tune up" items available, which needed to be done either way. New plugs and an oil/filter change. No change, but once this issue is isolated, its gunna run like a top! I then said f**k it and took him for a drive to see if i could pull anymore info on where the issues were. Cam up with some new data to chew on.

Starts great. Easier then in the past.

Idols fine. You can hear a bit of a "flubber" from the tail pipe, but other wise fine.

Taking off. Its coughs and is rough.

At speeds of 40-50mph. Seems to run well! Even when I hit the gas and accelerate.

In second gear (its a 3 speed) under load, it runs like s**t. Low power, hills i could climb in 3rd, are now challenging in 2nd. It acts like im driving a 14,000 feet or the choke is on.

Thanks for any insite you might have on where to go next. My gut is saying a missed port cleaning on the carb, but in conversation, the dizzy is not exempt. Thoughts?

 

[diesellibrarian]

I’ve been through this whole rigmarole myself over the past while, on my ‘72 (12/71 build). My issue ended up being a bad set of points, but in finally arriving at that diagnosis, I touched all of the other systems you mention. I spent a lot of time on the carb. I don’t know how many times I removed and reinstalled it lol. In the end I decided to order a rebuild kit from @cruiseroutfit. I’ll post a pic of the kit below. Before replacing the points, I had the same symptoms as you: idling okay, bogging under throttle. Unfortunately I didn’t really isolate the variables, so I can’t say for sure that the carb was bad, but anyway I figure it couldn’t hurt to rebuild it. While it was apart, I made sure that *all* of the passages were clear, and that both idle jets were clear. Installed the new power piston and a new accelerator pump, and made the various carb adjustments laid out in the Haynes manual. The truck is now running very well, with good throttle response and a consistent idle. Good luck!

 

[Tigger72]

Yes, after new points, I picked up that same carb rebuild kit. Unfortunatly, It had only jets for one side of the carb and no gaskets for the riser. But everything else went in!

Thanks!