HZJ73 vs BJ74

[denis]

with a 13BT there is very little extra hp you can squeeze out.

I can't wait till Peter reads this

 

[Technikev]

As much as the engine plays into this little comparison, There are a few other factors to consider as well, most of which were mentioned earlier somewhere on this threat, I think.

The front axle perhaps is less robust in the HZJ than the BJ. Minor, but so is the engine on a stock rig. The factory electric lockers may be less reliable according to Wayne. The Cable lockers are pretty much a last forever thing and keep to the KISS principle. I believe Toyota insulated the vehicle a bit better for sound dampening, although I could be wrong - just a rumor I heard. And for my final point, if you look at some pics, the interiors seem to be a bit nicer. Well, more modern anyway. Nicer arm rests on the door with the window rollerupper switches sort of molded in and not looking so tacked on and the console/shifter surround to finish the appearance. Although the interior stuff is probably just something to start to squeak and rattle after a couple hundred KMs and so, I guess doesn't adhere to KISS.

Anyway, it's personal preference. Both have their plusses and minuses. Kind of like comparing Fords and Dodges... Well, lets not go there. LOL

-Kevin

 

[Gold Boy]

13 BT for me is great off road and so so on road..

GB

 

[rick_d]

Bruce wrote:
"1HZ advantages...
- 6 cyl = internally balanced
(snip)


13BT advantages
- direct injected
- inline pump will outlast rotary 2:1
- gear driven valvetrain = no timing belt
- piston spray oiling = higher egts allowed
(snip)

I'd argue somethings about the timing belt being a plus. Less noise and keep an eye on it and it will last years. If it breaks, you're up a deep creek- but this failure can be moderated.

Sorry, your wrong about the piston skirt oiling, BOTH HZ and 13B-T have it.

I love inline pumps (and guys at ENS would agree) but if you can keep good filtration again you can moderate failure.

Single most rotten thing about a post 1990 truck is the 8" reverse cut. Of the 3 or 4 times I have been to ENS (industrial) I have seen 6:1 front vs. rear diffs being chucked into the garbage. They fail and nothing cures it. The ideal set up is 9.5" ring gear with coil front end birfields something so far only home made.

My main concern is about longevity. Having run into small gasket issues (13B-T turbo water line gaskets are obsolete) and expense in time etc living in north america, the 13B-T will be harder and harder to service (as will the 12H-T). 12 valve HZ/HD's when you solve the issues do last under normal road conditions (we all don't drive at -50C in the GWN).

 

[Behemoth60]

I can't wait till Peter reads this

Yeah... I just got caught up...

I see someone corrected Bruce already about the piston oilers. Everyone's missed a few obvious things though....

I must confess to never having driven a 1HZ powered rig. I do, however, own a 1HZ, and have dismantled it and polished the heads and rods in anticipation of a turblown build up, which I've shelved indefinately in favour of the venerable old 3B.

When I was contemplating an engine swap for TippyR, and chose the 1HZ, I got a private e-mail from Rob Mullen asking why I would choose pretty much the only diesel Toyota ever made into which they put all their worst, least longevity, designs. In addition to the obvious ones, I would ask that you contemplate these little gems of 'designed obselensece'
1. No replaceable bearings on the cam shaft. The cam rides directly on the head and bearing caps!
2. No sleaves for the pistons.
3. Rotary fuel pump
4. Belt driven cam (why didn't they use a chain like BMW does?
5. The worlds most complex design for adjusting valves. hence, it will probably never get done.
6. The whole big-end-bearing-sensitive-to-oil problem
7. Then there's the whole indirect injection, pre-cups that crack and drop into cylendars problem.
8. It's petty, I know, but the belts are the teeny 'A' series belts, where the B engines get the much more industrial 'B' sized belts.

I will say this about the 1HZ design that I do like....
1. There are two gear driven ports off the gear case, one used to drive a vacuum pump, and the other to drive the power steering. One less belt to slip, crack or snap, no dependance on that $1,700 vacuum pump on an alternator thingy.
2. The other thing I do like is bottom end bearing cap. One ginormous cap the size of the engine block that captures all the crank bearings at once. It's substantial, and I would reckon that the if the bearings get the kind of oil they like, then they should be good for 1,000 hp or more. I would reckon that you would have to litterally twist the block appart before the bottom end of this baby fails.

with a 13BT there is very little extra hp you can squeeze out.

Huh? I don't get this statement at all? First thing you do when you get a 1HZ and want to make some power is you put 50% more air into it by adding a Turbo. Maybe 100% more air if you're feeling spunky and squeeze off the wastegate. Now, try taking a 13B-T, and jack that baby to 15lbs boost (50% more air), or maybe go with 100% more air and blow 25lbs throgh it and see how much power you make. Being direct injected, it can take that, PLUS a load of propane and not pre-ignite like a 1HZ does.

I ask this, how many folks out there have honestly tried to get more power out of their 13B-T. And I mean an honest attempt, like spending as much money and fabrication time on it as you would on a 1HZ to get it turbo'd. I bet 99% of y'all with a 13B-T are still running the stock CT-26! That's not a serious effort to make power.

Fact of the matter, the 13B-T is such a great little engine, it makes enough power already. No need to juice it up beyond deactivating the wastegate and putting on a big exhaust.

As for the whole teeny front diff after 01/90, there's little question about it. The small front diff is *NOT* adequate for anyone serious about wheeling (and by serious about wheeling, I mean someone who knows why good lumbar support is important and has at least heard of Michelin off-road tires)... for anyone serious about wheeling a post-'90 Land Cruiser, they'll have a D60 on order to arrive about the same time as their HZJ73. They'll swap in the new axle, sell the high pinion locker for the price you paid for whole D60 axle, and have a set of medium sized birfs to hand-out trail side to your broken colleagues. Seriously, if you plan on any hard wheeling in a >'90 LC, save yourself the hassle now and ditch that baby axle for a D60 and never look back.

Ergo, the defacto superior rig is the BJ74. It's a gooder right from the factory, whereas the HZJ73 requries turbo's and axles to keep up in reliability once you get off the beaten trails.

QED

Peter Straub

 

[crushers]

yep, all those 80 series you see at Moab and other off road trails must be running an D60...
and that video floating around of Roll'n Nolen in Auzzi must have a good shot of his D60 front end somewhere in it...nope he still was running the same 80 series front end...
agreed the smaller front end is weaker than the older full size front end...

 

[Behemoth60]

yep, all those 80 series you see at Moab and other off road trails must be running an D60...
and that video floating around of Roll'n Nolen in Auzzi must have a good shot of his D60 front end somewhere in it...nope he still was running the same 80 series front end...
agreed the smaller front end is weaker than the older full size front end...

I figured you'ld more vehemently agree with me as the caretaker of your HJZ75 spend all of Moab 2002 replacing a broken front carrier, which he managed to break on one of the easiest trails.... without a locker. Then there was the diff that grenanded at Pismo in 2002 on LOOSE SAND!!!! I've hardly spent any time on the serious trails with small diff vehicles, and I already have a great collection of carnage stories.

No sir, you won't convince me of their sutability at all. Especially since it was YOUR TRUCK that first introduced me to their weakness!!!!

Now, I really should go to bed.

Peter STraub

 

[rick_d]

peter wrote:

>1. No replaceable bearings on the cam shaft. The cam rides directly on the head and bearing caps!
then you get to chuck out the head for a HD-T head (solving #7)

>2. No sleaves for the pistons.
I know, geesh, even Alfa Romeo's have sleeved blocks. 12H-T's are not, idea's on cummins etc?

>3. Rotary fuel pump
someone far brighter than I though it was a good idea- and it has not been changed in 15 years.

>4. Belt driven cam (why didn't they use a chain like BMW does?
It's lighter. Watch the belt system. What is the history of failure?

>5. The worlds most complex design for adjusting valves. hence, it will probably never get done. ok??

>6. The whole big-end-bearing-sensitive-to-oil problem
1st generation right? much more so than later.

>7. Then there's the whole indirect injection, pre-cups that crack and drop into cylendars problem. history with this engine type?

8. It's petty, I know, but the belts are the teeny 'A' series belts, where the B engines get the much more industrial 'B' sized belts.
yes, but they used in tandem and you can find them anywhere unlike B series which you can search for decades (I know, searching for 2F belts on a weekend in Montana as my smog pump siezed...)

 

[crushers]

I figured you'ld more vehemently agree with me as the caretaker of your HJZ75 spend all of Moab 2002 replacing a broken front carrier, which he managed to break on one of the easiest trails.... without a locker. Then there was the diff that grenanded at Pismo in 2002 on LOOSE SAND!!!! I've hardly spent any time on the serious trails with small diff vehicles, and I already have a great collection of carnage stories.

No sir, you won't convince me of their sutability at all. Especially since it was YOUR TRUCK that first introduced me to their weakness!!!!

Now, I really should go to bed.

Peter STraub

hummm, it seems Jeff busted the front and the rear diffs that run. if i remember correctly that the rear busted first and he tried to pull a 7500 lb truck on 35" up a rock slab on just the front diff...
i think that a full size diff might have broke as well..
cheers

 

[drexx]

...
Then there was the diff that grenaded at Pismo in 2002 on LOOSE SAND!!!!
...

Ahem! I resemble that remark!

The black FZJ-80 was in 4Lo that day (1st mistake), and I had the supercharger whining as I floored it (2nd mistake) up Competition Hill trying several times (3rd mistake --I blame my bro-in-law photographer, who was continually encouraging me to give him good actions shots, and I did ) my darndest best to see how high it could fly.

And it wasn't exactly loose sand. Seth's Evil Axles of Power made it around in 2wd. I think what really got my 4.56 r&p (note strength difference vs 4.11 r&p) were the washboards with compacted (from the night's previous rain) sand and the speed I was running over them. Oh yeah, and I blame the funky Old Man Emu shocking damping too

Here's a pic Amando took:
http://www.birfield.com/~morgan/images/J8/tn/OceanoDunes_jump.jpg.html

 

[Behemoth60]

i think that a full size diff might have broke as well..

Seems we're in perfect agreement. A full size diff *might* have broken. The small one *DEFINATELY* broke. That's my point.

Ahem! I resemble that remark!

I was trying to protect your anonymity!

And it wasn't exactly loose sand.

Again, probably a matter of perspective. Just like how water may as well be concrete if you fall from high enough, even the softest sand seems hard if you're a poor little diff under a rig that Drexx is driving!

Peter Straub

 

[denis]

As for the whole teeny front diff after 01/90, there's little question about it. The small front diff is *NOT* adequate for anyone serious about wheeling (and by serious about wheeling, I mean someone who knows why good lumbar support is important and has at least heard of Michelin off-road tires)...

Don't throw away the small front diff altogether, it certainly has its place on the lighter cruisers. The weight saving and added clearance under the pumpkin is a good thing. If they can survive to moderate abuse under an HZ/HD boat anchor, they can certainly take a lot of abuse under an L or K series engine

 

[Technikev]

peter wrote:
>2. No sleaves for the pistons.
I know, geesh, even Alfa Romeo's have sleeved blocks. 12H-T's are not, idea's on cummins etc?

Ford powersmoke are not sleeved. I believe that the Cummins B series engines used in Dodge PU are not sleeved, as well. The Caterpiller 3126 which is similar in displacement to the Cummins 5.9 does have sleeves.

-Kevin

 

[Technikev]

Well why not just plop a 1HD-T into a BJ74, do the BEB's, change the timing belt (and every 100K km's too), carry a spare pulley belt, turn up the fuel and lock down the wastegate, and be done with it? Oh, and get someone like Wayne to adjust the valves, so it won't be as much of a pain.

-Kevin

 

[crushers]

actually Greg and Sheldon are the gurus when it comes to the HDT and the 1HZ, i just play with those engines...

 

[Greg_B]

actually Greg and Sheldon are the gurus when it comes to the HDT and the 1HZ, i just play with those engines...

Oh no...I'll shrug off that jacket Wayne There are others who lurk here, and are on other lists who have much more experience then most of us with these engines. Sheldon and I are simply babes in the woods still, when compared...

We do have a shim tool or two...kicking around the shop though.

gb

 

[crushers]

you might be right but i will take a back seat to you boys here in Canada...

 

[lowenbrau]

The Aussies have proved that you can sleeve anything. They have been doing 2Hs forever and even do 350 Chevy's because I guess they are desirable there. Sleaved/non-sleaved = no concern

 

[Radd Cruisers]

Yep, we sleeved a 2H about two years ago, still running real strong.

The Aussies have proved that you can sleeve anything. They have been doing 2Hs forever and even do 350 Chevy's because I guess they are desirable there. Sleaved/non-sleaved = no concern

 

[crushers]

a decent machine shop can sleeve almost anything...