Hungry Valley trip and the things I learned

[Atticus]

<dick hat on> Atticus, those deaths in Alabama I attribute to Natural Selection. <dick hat off>

First time I was convinced that I did something wrong. Trail/path was clear, straight, flat, no ruts, no people, no vehicles. I took "the risk" the second time knowing my surroundings and being convinced it was my own actions on the first attempt. Second attempt was to verify and/or correct. It wasn't an ego thing at all. I needed to know what my error was so that I would not repeat the same actions next time.

So from here lets see if we can solve the issue at hand instead of being scolded by Uncle Touchy about why I'm a bad father

I'm not scolding you. I'm just offering you some of my experience.

That's pretty callous to refer to the deaths of family members and friends as natural selection. I would attribute it more to accidents that happened because people failed to properly analyze safety issues, or not being as aware of their environment as they maybe should because of false comfort levels, or bad luck. You don't have to be stupid to make one stupid decision that has a bad result. It is ironic, to me, that you had a warning that what you were doing was dangerous, and yet you did it again. If you had been hurt or killed, do you think I would have called it natural selection? Do you think I would have reprimanded you for hurting or killing your child, or rubbed it in? The answer is no. I've seen accidents occur to good, smart people.

If you want to lash out about it, that's up to you. All I can tell you is what I've experienced. If you want to learn your own lessons the hard way, be my guest. I hope that you learn them without paying a serious price, though.

 

[NLXTACY]

Oh its totally operator error not hitting the CDL. I wish I would have see it the second time.

I am convinced that the stall happened BEFORE the rolling.

CDL / 7-pin mod should not be blamed for the problem. All this mod does is give more control and responsibility to the user--a level of control and responsibility that is in no way exceptional. Forgetting to lock the center diff is forgetting to put your rig in 4 wheel drive. That's user error.

Like Christo pointed out, once you unload the front axle on a steep climb, you're spinning an open diff between the axles, lose go power to the rear axle, and are liable to roll backward. It sounds like some here have reasoned that rolling backward in drive can logically stall the engine--is this disputed or established?

As far as the brake issue goes, I'm favoring the the ABS being the culprit. Light front axle + single channel ABS on the rear axle = the system lets the wheels keep rolling.
Anyone care to stall their truck and roll backwards with the center diff locked?

 

[Atticus]

Anybody have any thoughts on WHY rolling backwards in a forward gear would stall the engine?

Did it just cut out, or did it sputter and die?

 

[NLXTACY]

Atti, I am a fervent believer in Natural Selection so if I die and take my kid with me because of my actions, then I attribute that to natural selection as well.

Your hard on for me should stay in Chat where people appreciate your version of witty banter because so far you have little to offer in tech other than swinging your lawyer dick around and feeling good about yourself when pointing out the bad parenting you perceive.

I've experienced more death than I care to elaborate on so I fully know and understand the finality of the process.

I'm not scolding you. I'm just offering you some of my experience.

That's pretty callous to refer to the deaths of family members and friends as natural selection. I would attribute it more to accidents that happened because people failed to properly analyze safety issues, or not being as aware of their environment as they maybe should because of false comfort levels, or bad luck. You don't have to be stupid to make one stupid decision that has a bad result. It is ironic, to me, that you had a warning that what you were doing was dangerous, and yet you did it again. If you had been hurt or killed, do you think I would have called it natural selection? Do you think I would have reprimanded you for hurting or killing your child, or rubbed it in? The answer is no. I've seen accidents occur to good, smart people.

If you want to lash out about it, that's up to you. All I can tell you is what I've experienced. If you want to learn your own lessons the hard way, be my guest. I hope that you learn them without paying a serious price, though.

 

[bpassmore]

Anybody have any thoughts on WHY rolling backwards in a forward gear would stall the engine?

Did it just cut out, or did it sputter and die?

pump pressure maybe? the reverse in 1st (under low rpm) can cause the engine to die in similar circumstances.

 

[Atticus]

Atti, I am a fervent believer in Natural Selection so if I die and take my kid with me because of my actions, then I attribute that to natural selection as well.

Your hard on for me should stay in Chat where people appreciate your version of witty banter because so far you have little to offer in tech other than swinging your lawyer dick around and feeling good about yourself when pointing out the bad parenting you perceive.

I've experienced more death than I care to elaborate on so I fully know and understand the finality of the process.

Joey, I've already apologized to you for antagonizing you in the past, and I am not singling you out because of some personal animosity. It's pretty obvious that you are taking my comments personally, and I am not meaning them personally, or to attack you in any way. So, I am happy to drop it.

Anyway, I am still interested to hear in why the engine cut out. Did rolling backwards put more load on the engine that it could handle at idle?

 

[george_tlc]

Anybody have any thoughts on WHY rolling backwards in a forward gear would stall the engine?

Did it just cut out, or did it sputter and die?

In my 80 it just cuts out - literally like turning the engine off with the key. Not like a sputtering stall in a manual where you brake hard enough to kill the engine. You don't need a super steep hill, just steep enough that the forward gear will not keep it from rolling back when the brake is released and no skinny pedal is applied. Takes several feet to do it, but I'm sure I had read (way back when I first observed this) that others had noted this too.

I've learned to NOT let the vehicle roll back (too far) when in a forward gear and just assumed it was some stupid automatic thing (the 80 is the first auto I've owned). Just put it in reverse if you have to back down. The going down is really the only time I'd prefer a manual over an auto and mated to a diesel engine. I've gone down some steep inclines in my manual diesel patrol and in low reverse or 1st you get heaps of engine braking.

Anyhow, I'd love to know if this is a general auto thing or something specific to 80's (maybe even just the range with the electronically controlled ECU etc etc). I know my '97 has this 'issue' and this occurred a few years ago when it was quite new (was bought new).

cheers,
george.

 

[hawaiicruz]

Why is there a common denominator in this thread of people using neutral when they stop on a hill and decide to roll backwards? Using reverse is the safer option.

The other technique I'm seeing is a lot of heavy brake on the reverse descent. It's counter-intuitive (to overcome the pucker factor), but if you have the roll-out room its better to avoid the brake on the slope and just let it roll, keep it straight and then brake hard on the flats. Its harder to keep the the truck in a straight line when the front wheels are dragging on slope. Maybe not so imperative on slickrock but in a loose dirt/gravel hillclimb heavy front brake will risk swinging the front end sideways, jumping out of the tracks and setting you up for a roll.

I was taught to use reverse gear, no brake until you reach the base. Obviously the length of climb is a factor here, but these have been pretty short.

And on the video of Chitown40 on Launch Pad, the spectator in the red shirt has chosen to sit in the death zone. Very bad place to actually sit down - at minimum stay on your feet.

Not trying to be hyper-critical of fellow mudders, and the video links are really great to see but we can all learn to do things in a safer manner, and these jumped out at me.

Allright not to change the subject but I've asked this question in the past and havent got any satisfactory answers. I'm new to this forum but not to 4wheeling, I've been at it for 25 years, so I know a little about the process
Ive owned and wheeled the pi*s out of 3 toyota trucks and 1 heep, before I got my 80 (you dont even want to hear about having to back down a 200' mud slope with sheer cliffs on both sides, talk about seat cover sucked up th *ss. I'll save that for another day) but it seems that the stock gearing in the 80 causes me to use the brake way to much on steep descents . On all my other trucks I could just put it in low and 1st gear, and let the gears do all the work on all but the CRAZIEST s**t. With the 80 its brakes all the time (is it an auto trans thing? all my other trucks were manual) IMHO brakes equal sliding on anything remotely steep, and as far as backing down a steep slope in nuetral thats just completely nuts, goes against everything I ever learned about 4wheeling

Just my $.02
and I'm still convinced if he had better tires the thing would have just pulled up the hill even without the CDL engaged, it just doesnt look all that tough

 

[SeanAndHis80]

Allright not to change the subject but I've asked this question in the past and havent got any satisfactory answers. I'm new to this forum but not to 4wheeling, I've been at it for 25 years, so I know a little about the process
Ive owned and wheeled the pi*s out of 3 toyota trucks and 1 heep, before I got my 80 (you dont even want to hear about having to back down a 200' mud slope with sheer cliffs on both sides, talk about seat cover sucked up th *ss. I'll save that for another day) but it seems that the stock gearing in the 80 causes me to use the brake way to much on steep descents . On all my other trucks I could just put it in low and 1st gear, and let the gears do all the work on all but the CRAZIEST s**t. With the 80 its brakes all the time (is it an auto trans thing? all my other trucks were manual) IMHO brakes equal sliding on anything remotely steep, and as far as backing down a steep slope in nuetral thats just completely nuts, goes against everything I ever learned about 4wheeling

Just my $.02
and I'm still convinced if he had better tires the thing would have just pulled up the hill even without the CDL engaged, it just doesnt look all that tough

It's an auto thing. The torque converter unlocks unless the engine and sensors show the right conditions. At that point all you have is a viscous coupling to slow you down to engine speed. One person on Mud has gotten control of his torque converter and has given himself the ability to lock it at will.

Still, I have not seen the engine stall while sliding backwards and I am pretty sure I have slid down more than 3 feet backwards while in drive/4LOW at my camp. I am a few weeks off of going back there but I'll try to see if I can find a good hill to test in the meantime.

As per Joey's truck, the ABS theory sounds like it may lead somewhere. Could LSPV adjustment have anything to do with this? Then there is the engine stalling - if it stalled before it slid then obviously going in reverse while in drive did not cause the stall. But what did? It seems that this got triggered at peak engine output. Is there much play in your engine mounts that is allowing the engine to move around more than it should? Could a frayed wire harness be getting moved and shorting causing this issue? I am assuming that there are no codes being thrown - right?

 

[Randy88FJ62]

Allright not to change the subject but I've asked this question in the past and havent got any satisfactory answers. I'm new to this forum but not to 4wheeling, I've been at it for 25 years, so I know a little about the process
Ive owned and wheeled the pi*s out of 3 toyota trucks and 1 heep, before I got my 80 (you dont even want to hear about having to back down a 200' mud slope with sheer cliffs on both sides, talk about seat cover sucked up th *ss. I'll save that for another day) but it seems that the stock gearing in the 80 causes me to use the brake way to much on steep descents . On all my other trucks I could just put it in low and 1st gear, and let the gears do all the work on all but the CRAZIEST s**t. With the 80 its brakes all the time (is it an auto trans thing? all my other trucks were manual) IMHO brakes equal sliding on anything remotely steep, and as far as backing down a steep slope in nuetral thats just completely nuts, goes against everything I ever learned about 4wheeling

Just my $.02
and I'm still convinced if he had better tires the thing would have just pulled up the hill even without the CDL engaged, it just doesnt look all that tough

I had bald tires on my FJ62 when I made the accent after Joey’s first time. I went really slow the whole way up and I didn’t have a problem. I doubt the problem is his tires. His tires also provide more contact area than mine as his are wider and bigger in diameter. Both of us were aired down to around 18 psi.

 

[chitown40]

Just my $.02
and I'm still convinced if he had better tires the thing would have just pulled up the hill even without the CDL engaged, it just doesnt look all that tough

If you're referring to the video of me on launch pad, then yes, it's not a very tough obstacle, but I stated I inadvertently forgot to re-lock my CDL, which was the main factor in not making up the hill. In Moab, tires aren't nearly the factor as more important things like CDLs.

Hayes: point taken. I can admit a mistake like not putting my truck in 4wd while on a 4wd trip. I was in 4-Low in a full-time 4wd vehicle though. It's amazing how much more the CDL adds.

 

[Hayes]

No offense intended with comments of user error. As a user I am usually in error one way or another. Just don't want folks to think there is anything sketchy with the CDL / 7-pin mod--which there isn't.

 

[chitown40]

No offense intended with comments of user error. As a user I am usually in error one way or another. Just don't want folks to think there is anything sketchy with the CDL / 7-pin mod--which there isn't.

I agree totally. That one was all on me, and after that wonderful learning experience, I do realize the significance of the locked CDL even in a full-time 4wd vehicle. I also realize that our 80s shouldn't stall out while backing down a steep slope, but apparently a few have experienced this, and it is certainly worth looking into. Power-assisted brakes at some point will be useful backing down steep grades.

 

[landcruising]

In regard to the stalling while in drive and going backwords I have had this happen in my 4runner. My drive way is sloped and I have rolled curbs. About 2 weeks ago while pulling in the driveway I hesitated as a stray cat came running out from under the trailer. The rear tires were on the rolled curb as this happend and it stalled as rolling backwords and several dash lights came on and the abs and or tracktion control kicked in with a shuutter to the brake peddle. So there may be validity to the drive and roll back theary in combination with the abs. By the way I also asked my wife if this had happened to her and it did, on the same rolled curb as she slowly tried to climb up with too little pedel to avoid waking the baby. Damed rolled curb.

 

[Sporin]

As a new 80-series owner, who came to the 80 specifically for it's EFI and automatic trans being so offroad friendly, this is an interesting thread.

 

[NLXTACY]

Well I was gonna go with Shahram to go test out these theories but the wifey took the LX today so I can't test it out. I asked her yesterday if she noticed anything funny about how it drives or stops. She nope but then again maybe she's too embarrassed to notice because of all of her co-workers pointing and laughing at the damage I did.

 

[Buckru]

Something to consider.

Power braking is a tool that can be used while moving forward. Could it be used in some of the situations described here while backing down a steep hill?

Buck

 

[NLXTACY]

Something to consider.

Power braking is a tool that can be used while moving forward. Could it be used in some of the situations described here while backing down a steep hill?

Buck

Well then the question is does the braking system know which direction the truck is going?

 

[Buckru]

I am not sure it would if ABS is deactivated.

Buck

 

[Chaldaean]

I just went out and tried to stall by rolling backward on a hill and was successful each time I tried.

- CDL Locked
- Low on the transfer case
- Low on the transmission
- Foot off the brake
- Rolling backward slowly

It took a few seconds for it to stall, but I can attest that there was no ABS pedal feedback and the brake was wicked hard to push; it did little to nothing to stop me as I pushed and I was pressing as hard as I could.

There was certainly much less braking power than I had imagined there being; I'm glad I experienced the feeling in a controlled situation. I can picture big trouble if this were to happen on a trail ride with a line of rigs behind me.