Shocks too, yes. But what I'm more getting at is the lost suspension geometry that shocks can't correct for.
I know you know this, but just breaking it down for sake of discussion. When we lift higher, all the suspension components operate at a steeper angle. Arms operate on an arc. Suspension designs try as much as they can to operate these arms as close to horizontal as possible. To avoid lateral movements when the arm travels up and down.
Let's look at the rear suspension. Take the panhard bar for example. This bar locates the axle side to side. When operated at a steeper angle, suspension compression will cause the axle to move left to right. Meaning the rear end wiggles side to side when hitting bumps. Then consider the trailing arms. When they operate at a steeper angle, the wheelbase shrinks, causing the rig to be more darty at speed. It's also more sensitive to heaving the rear end of the rig when applying power or sagging when braking. Now hit a bump, and the wheelbase changes from shorter to longer. When considering this wheelbase change, along with the side to side change from the panhard bar, now the whole axle deflects at some curious yaw angle. And that's just the rear.
The more the lift, the more these ill qualities are exacerbated. Low speed rock crawlers don't really care much about suspension geometry. But I'm sure most of do drive on the highway at speed.
I'm not trying to convince people not to lift. Just making people aware that the decision is not just 1" vs 2" of lift. Every modification comes with a mix of factors and trade-offs.
Brother, I feel we disagree on most things, and sometimes I feel it is because you are very theory based and I go more off of testing and failures. Not to say you don’t know know what you’re talking about, you do, so don’t take anything from me as personal, but in the effort of discussion, here’s my take.
I totally agree with you that there are trade offs, and that with small changes, other things need to be taken into account. I’m so with you on that.
But in the realm of under 3.5”ish of lift in a 200, outside of the front upper control arms, it doesn’t matter. My comments were not based toward rock crawling, I drove my truck all weekend on the highway at 85mph and steer with my right under finger, through Atlanta crappy roads, then wheeled it and back.
Toyota designs the truck to operate just fine within the entire suspension stroke except for the factory front upper shock mount. That’s why the higher end coil overs have a pivot at the top, to take into account the front suspension arc when operating at a higher angle. But the lower control arm, steering, and CVs are just fine at high angle.
Do you tear your CVs apart when you turn? Check out that angle they operate on when making a u turn.
Alignments bring it all back into check, and if the factory upper ball joint had just a bit more in it, then there would be no reason to replace it.
For the rear, yes, a panhard would recenter the axle. And I have one, you know how much a 3” lift pulled the axle to the left? .4” not enough to notice it bouncing down the highway. For the rear lower control arms, your not cutting away fenders and extending your wheel base, or extending bump stops, or changing the output point of the transfer case, so that comment doesn’t really apply. For upper control arms, yes the pinion angle could get a small adjustment to make the angle of both u joints the same (because that’s what eliminates vibrations, but that’s not till over 4”, and the KDSS bar is the limiting factor that leads to why the rear shock extending length is limited, which is why factory and aftermarket shock are all about the same length.
Side note, as Linuxgod mentioned about racing, those guys have to stick to their class rules, not a good example.
So, while agree with you that things changed means that there is a whole package of changes that come with it, you’re taking it to the exteme. And I’m the guy that does countless hours of work to get things just right, like proving the “Cruiser/KDSS lean” isn’t a thing, but people that don't set up their suspension good enough.
Car after car has taught me that
1) every car (and driver) is different, but should be tested the same
2) old ways don’t mean anything, but are necessary to try to make sure they are or are not relevant anymore
3) taking your time, making one small change, and truly testing it (key work, testing), shows that when it is right, it’s right.
My truck is high, it drive great at speed, both on and off-road. And yours can too, but you have to do it to know.
