How Important Is It To Have Dual Batts With Winch

[mobi-arc]

Fair enough guys. A healthy amount of skepticism is a good thing and my reaction to the prototype was exactly the same as yours...."why hasn't anyone done it before?" We went through a patent search and found that that everyone missed the boat. That being the case, we thought it prudent to slow down, iron out patentability issues, and come to market with our best foot forward.

Christo will be installing a POWER-GATE for evaluation purposes. I think most of us would agree that his opinion is valued on this board. Once he has it installed, I'm sure he'd be happy to provide feedback because clearly, we're understandably biased.

With respect to wiring diagrams, they're up on our website. You simply connect the external post to ground and it's functioning. It's so frick'n easy it's ridiculous. You've got anode, cathode, and a ground wire...done. Everything else is automatic. It even tells you if its gone sideways. Of course you never want that to happen, but we've all seen electronics give up the ghost from time-to-time. With most isolators, the first inkling of a problem is when your batteries are dead. POWER-GATE provides both a visual and an audible warning in case of failure. Like our other products, we first make a list of the "ultimate" isolator. Then try to engineer the product keeping in mind real world parameters like money, time, manufacturing ease, costs, liability exposure, end user pricing, and return on investment. In my opinion, the "ultimate" isolator would be a POWER-GATE, but with double or triple redundancy built in so if a circuit lets go, it shuts down and the next redundant circuit takes over. Unfortunately, the price of the product would be tough to swallow.

Guys, hope you have a good holiday. We're back at it Tuesday morning so if anyone has questions, concerns, comments, etc... we always have time for fellow Land Cruiser guys.

Scott

PS) I washed my '98 today.....the roof is such pain in the ass to clean!

 

[desertdude]

Thanks Scott - I look forward to Christo's review!

 

[reffug]

Turbo aka Shaun,

Here is a pic of the left and right side of my dual battery set up.

You can see how the turbo and battery were worked around to make it all fit. HTH

 

[Beowulf]

With respect to wiring diagrams, they're up on our website. You simply connect the external post to ground and it's functioning. It's so frick'n easy it's ridiculous. You've got anode, cathode, and a ground wire...done. Everything else is automatic.

Scott,

In post #22 above, you reproduced the wiring diagrams that were on your web site the last time I looked.

I don't know about the others, but I could use some elaboration on the choices. You have 2 different "Isolator" wiring diagrams and 2 different "combiner" diagrams.

Would you please explain the pros and cons for each of the 4 diagrams, giving some real world examples of when those of us here in the IH8MUD forums would choose to use each of the 4 examples. These examples should take into consideration winches, aux 12v outlets, HD 12v air compressor, AC converters, etc.

I am surprised that you don't recommend some type of fuse and/or circuit-breaker in the wiring?

Thanks,
-B-

-

 

[turbocruiser]

Turbo aka Shaun,

Here is a pic of the left and right side of my dual battery set up.

You can see how the turbo and battery were worked around to make it all fit. HTH

Thanks man, what a wonderful use of space!!! If i had not seen it, i would not have believed it.

One thing that's hard to tell from the foto is : it looks like you have your MAF and intake running almost directly to the throttle body and I cannot see from the foto how it directs to the turbo or to the intercooler. There must be some elbow or splice added in there because if i were to twist my air canister tube and MAF that way, i would never get to the turbo or the intercooler. I know I'm a pain in the ass but my curiosity is completely out of control and i was wondering whether you would be willing to snap some shots straight down to the left of the air filter canister so i can see how the hoses run???

After your advice and the advice of some select others, I think I'm going to go with single batt as long as I am ONLY running a winch, however, whenever the two electric heaters and electric refrig are added (prolly at least another year from now) I will then go to duals at that point. That gives me much time to perfect the setup and pirating your ideas seem the fastest way to do that! Later man, and thanks again for posting the pics.

 

[mobi-arc]

Scott,

In post #22 above, you reproduced the wiring diagrams that were on your web site the last time I looked.


Would you please explain the pros and cons for each of the 4 diagrams, giving some real world examples of when those of us here in the IH8MUD forums would choose to use each of the 4 examples. These examples should take into consideration winches, aux 12v outlets, HD 12v air compressor, AC converters, etc.I am surprised that you don't recommend some type of fuse and/or circuit-breaker in the wiring?
Thanks,
-B-
-

Not to be coy, but if the diagrams still leave questions that need to be answered, it's much easier and quicker to do so over the phone with both parties viewing the same diagram. The basic isolator (82-Series) can be used as a rectifier/body diode/one-way valve/single-battery isolator in a multi-battery setup. If batteries are connected to both anode and cathode, the source will charge both, and one battery cannot be discharged through the rectifier. Adding the combiner feature (62-Series) provides the ability to combine anode and cathode via a remotely installed switch. However, if the isolated battery fails or shorts, it could drain the other battery connected to the anode and then you'd be screwed.

The dual leg isolator (83-Series) has dual cathodes isolated from each other so regardless of a battery failure, the "other" battery cannot be discharged. In the dual leg configuration, add the "combine" feature (63-Series) and remotely combine cathodes and anode via a remotely installed switch.

How to set up an electical system is a personal preference issue. From my perspective, always have a battery isolated and fully charged. This would mean running winch, inverter, off-road lights, high-amp stereo, HAM radio, etc...off of the "accessory" battery this way if you winch the battery into electrical oblivion, you're not screwed.

The website has more information as we continue to build it out so before you pick up the phone, you might take a quick look.

 

[Rich]

... [Referring to Hellroaring isolater] Try running 300 amps through it and watch what happens. We were surprised...right up until we took it apart for a post-mortem. ...

Is the Hellroaring isolater that you disassembled based on insulated gate bipolar transistor (IGBT) technology?

 

[mobi-arc]

Is the Hellroaring isolater that you disassembled based on insulated gate bipolar transistor (IGBT) technology?

If I remember correctly, it was MOSFET architecture, dated parts selection, through-hole PCB with the board layout circa 1960 using the old style taping methods of PCB manufacturing. All charging current ran through two or three FET drain pins......2-3 pins 20 thousandths thick carrying 150 to 200a? There was no mystery why the unit failed.

Our guess is the designer is a retired or semi-retired engineer who used to work for the government. He's probably in the his 60's or 70's based upon the method of PCB layout. The design uses component selection where specs are taken at face value based on the manufacturer's specs without consideration of "real world" circumstances. It's a very classical design which has yielded a product with performance specs that appear to be liberal at best. This is why all their "resistance" specs, testing, graphs, etc. are all at either .5 amps or 5 amps. All testing data is at like no power which means absolutely nothing, but to the average consumer, it's usually overlooked. That's what I find so amazing....every product has amazing stats....at 1/2 an amp. How's it do at 150 amps in real world conditions?

 

[desertdude]

WOW all that for 1.00usd - I added a couple hundred to my cart - thanks!

 

[Beowulf]

(Posted May 29, 2005)

We hope to have units available for sale to people on the IH8MUD site within 2 weeks, perhaps sooner.

Scott,
Are you still on track to offer these units for sale here on IH8MUD this week?
-B-

 

[mobi-arc]

Scott,
Are you still on track to offer these units for sale here on IH8MUD this week?
-B-

We've just completed 275 amp continuous tests....cables get hot and the isolator gets warn.....good cables and crimps are sooooo important. I asked Frank in engineering if he's going to give the "blessing" today and he said yes, so it looks like tomorrow we'll start epoxying units and finalize pricing.

Scott

 

[Beowulf]

We've just completed 275 amp continuous tests....cables get hot and the isolator gets warn.....good cables and crimps are sooooo important. I asked Frank in engineering if he's going to give the "blessing" today and he said yes, so it looks like tomorrow we'll start epoxying units and finalize pricing.

Scott

So I take this as a "yes", and these units will be officially offered for sale to IH8MUD members this week?

-B-

 

[mobi-arc]

So I take this as a "yes", and these units will be officially offered for sale to IH8MUD members this week?

-B-

What version are you interested in?

Scott

 

[Beowulf]

What version are you interested in?

63-300

-B-

 

[mobi-arc]

63-300

-B-

Are you running a 300a alternator?

Have some new stats:

 

[polarweasel]

Scott,

Now that you've got the product line sorted out, and are close to having pricing sorted out, I would love to see a "recommended applications" list, or a list of sample configurations. Let's use me as an example to get started...

My 1984 FJ60 has a stock Toyota alternator. I also have an electric winch (a Ramsay 8K). My feeble brain wants a simple system: When the motor is off, I want to have one battery running everything, and the other isolated in reserve for starting. If the accessory battery gets discharged, flip a switch in the morning and fire up the engine. 62-series or 63-series? What amperage?

In practical terms, what sorts of uses would require a 62-series isolator/combiner, and what would require a 63-series? How do I figure out my required amperage?


Alex

 

[Beowulf]

Are you running a 300a alternator?

No.
-B-

 

[mobi-arc]

Scott,

Now that you've got the product line sorted out, and are close to having pricing sorted out, I would love to see a "recommended applications" list, or a list of sample configurations. Let's use me as an example to get started...

My 1984 FJ60 has a stock Toyota alternator. I also have an electric winch (a Ramsay 8K). My feeble brain wants a simple system: When the motor is off, I want to have one battery running everything, and the other isolated in reserve for starting. If the accessory battery gets discharged, flip a switch in the morning and fire up the engine. 62-series or 63-series? What amperage?

In practical terms, what sorts of uses would require a 62-series isolator/combiner, and what would require a 63-series? How do I figure out my required amperage?


Alex

The 63-series (dual leg) keeps both batteries (or battery banks) isolated from each other, even in the event of a battery malfunction. A total battery failure is not terribly common. When I say complete battery failure, I'm talking a dead short. The 62-Series charges both batteries while driving, and provides 100% isolation for one battery....we'll call that the main battery. Ideally, you want to run accessories off of the "accessory battery that way it can be run flat, and you'll still have your "main" battery isolated and fully charged for starting and running the truck. A flip of the remote switch would combine the batteries if, for example, you've winched the auxillary battery dead and you want just a "little more juice" to complete the winch pull. If you combine, now your "main" battery is being discharged too. If you're careless, you could discharge both batteries in the "combine" mode and be in jam.

I would look at it like this: how paranoid are you of a battery dead-shorting? If it's not a concern, then the 62-series saves a couple bucks and will serve your application requirments nicely. If you've had batteries dead short and your battery carma is in the toilet, then perhaps the dual leg will conter-act your bad luck. The current capacity is based on the current capability of the source (alternator). If you don't have a 300a alternator, don't pay for 300a isolation....you're paying for capacity you'll never need. I suspect most of us fall in the sub-150 amp range.

If you look at the diagrams I've posted on the website, it should help you understand how the two are different. Also, feel free to give me a buzz and I can walk you through on the phone if we're both looking at the diagrams.

Scott
858-720-1339

 

[Rich]

...If you don't have a 300a alternator, don't pay for 300a isolation....you're paying for capacity you'll never need....

Uh, what about the folks who will be drawing winch current through the isolater/combiner device?

 

[polarweasel]

Yup, that's why I included "electric winch" in my configuration, Scott. That winch at full stall will draw *way* more than 100A, unless I'm missing something in how you're wiring this all up!

Hurry up and post some prices! You said you'd have it done last night...