Honest question about LJ/KZJ 70 (Prado) vs. HZJ 70 ("HeavyDuty 70") vs. HDJ 80-series - what market segment does a Prado fill? (1 Viewer)

[tonydyvr]

Hi all -

I don't mean to start a flame-war here, but I've had a genuine question for a while now that has only become amplified as all Cruisers continue to sell for crazy prices.

In a nutshell, unless price and/or vehicle availability were a consideration, is there a reason to get a Prado over either a standard 70 series or an 80-series?

It seems to me that the original 70-series was a "capability over comfort" vehicle designed first and foremost for rugged offroad capability at the expense of comfort. Leaf springs, stronger rear diff, bigger less-stressed engines, front locker options, etc. The sort of thing you get in something like an HZJ73 or HZJ77.

The amenities offered in the Prados in terms of coils, slightly more luxo interior, etc. might make them more comfortable on the road, but if you were looking for a comfortable daily and willing to sacrifice the top 5% of offroad capability, why wouldn't you get an 80-series? Way more comfort and features than a Prado.

It just surprises me to see a N.American Land Cruiser specialist shop offering (at the time I write this) three sample vehicles - a 92 HZJ77, a 92 HDJ81, and a 94 KZJ78, all in apparently similar good condition, all within 15,000 miles of each other on the odo, and all within $2K of each other in asking price ($20K, $22K, and $21K respectively).

Don't get me wrong, I'd take any 90s Toyota product over just about any other comparably-aged offering every day of the week. Nothing at all wrong with the Prado per se.

But can someone explain why, if I were looking at those three vehicles, I'd choose the Prado over both of the other ones?

Thanks!

 

[AirheadNut]

From my perspective the only reason to get a Prado (especially KZJ78) over a 77 Series in the current market would be on road comfort. Similarly the only thing they have over an 80 Series (particularly the HDJ81) is that they're smaller and more nimble off road, and get slightly better fuel mileage. If you want to look purely at the on-paper specs the obvious choice would the the HDJ81: they're much more comfortable than an HD 70, easily as capable, at least as robust, more powerful and get roughly equivalent mileage. Personally though, I much prefer the look of a 70 Series, and the narrow profile of my LJ78 has come in handy on more than one trail where an 80 would not have fit.

I have to admit that the current pricing I have seen on Prados and LJ's in particular has left me scratching my head; they certainly require much more care and effort than other LandCruisers. The biggest reason I've had two LJ78's is because they used to be priced at 1/3-1/2 the normal price of an equivalent 77 or 81, making them a really cheap entry into the JDM diesel Cruiser world even with a bunch of upgrades. Even with the engine swap and all the other work I've done to mine it has cost me just over half of the going rate for a really nice KZJ78.

 

[mcmarshing]

This is just my opinion. Open to criticism and what not.

Bottom line is just that they all sell and are all desirable on paper, but (I think) many buyers just don't fully understand or care that the underpinnings or intended use of an 7x/8x/Prado are different. As long as it has the coveted Land Cruiser badge, it'll be desired and sell. It also seems like, if one type of Land Cruiser is shooting up in price (like the 8x), then the other types will follow as well (like the 6x). Similarly, since the full size 7x are selling for a lot, the Prado's will ride up as well. Another similar thing can be seen with the diesel 80's. I think people are just so stoked that the truck runs on diesel, that they don't realize that there is a 12valve and 24valve 1HD with notable performance differences - yet they'll both sell for similar prices.

Why would I personally get a Prado versus 8x? Probably overall size of vehicle, the head turn factor, and maybe parts to some degree. It's nice that when you blow a G52 transmission behind a 2LT, you can just order a fully rebuilt W56 of R151 from Marlin Crawler for under $2000. I would be more stressed trying to find a H151, but I guess it wouldn't be that hard to do. I also suppose that since the 8x was sold here too that the parts wouldn't be the hardest thing to find either... Except maybe engine stuff.

that HZJ77 kind of sounds like a deal though, not going to lie.

 

[GTSSportCoupe]

LC pricing is just stupid right now and doesn't make sense. Only reason I bought my LJ78 is it was so cheap at the time and was a no brainer.

Of the three you mention, the HDJ81 would be a clear winner as a daily driver cruiser. The direct injection turbo diesel 1HDT is far superior to the IDI normally aspirated 1HZ, and definitely the undersized/overworked 2LT.

As a pure wheeling rig, I think the LJ7x family has serious potential though. Mine goes where big 80 series simply don't fit.

@mcmarshing I'm pretty sure all the 2LT/2LTE LJ7x models came with R151? I think only the normally aspirated 3L and maybe 22R models came with the G52? But fine point all the same.

 

[AirheadNut]

This is just my opinion. Open to criticism and what not.

Bottom line is just that they all sell and are all desirable on paper, but (I think) many buyers just don't fully understand or care that the underpinnings or intended use of an 7x/8x/Prado are different. As long as it has the coveted Land Cruiser badge, it'll be desired and sell. It also seems like, if one type of Land Cruiser is shooting up in price (like the 8x), then the other types will follow as well (like the 6x). Similarly, since the full size 7x are selling for a lot, the Prado's will ride up as well. Another similar thing can be seen with the diesel 80's. I think people are just so stoked that the truck runs on diesel, that they don't realize that there is a 12valve and 24valve 1HD with notable performance differences - yet they'll both sell for similar prices.

Why would I personally get a Prado versus 8x? Probably overall size of vehicle, the head turn factor, and maybe parts to some degree. It's nice that when you blow a G52 transmission behind a 2LT, you can just order a fully rebuilt W56 of R151 from Marlin Crawler for under $2000. I would be more stressed trying to find a H151, but I guess it wouldn't be that hard to do. I also suppose that since the 8x was sold here too that the parts wouldn't be the hardest thing to find either... Except maybe engine stuff.

that HZJ77 kind of sounds like a deal though, not going to lie.

I have to agree, it seems like most people who buy an LJ do so without knowing the pitfalls of that particular model. The same is probably true of the KZJ, but its pitfalls don't tend to be as severe. In general I have found that parts for any diesel LC are more difficult, or perhaps just take longer, to find than something like a US-spec 60 or 80, but since the 80 was sold here there tends to be much more available at local parts stores for them. Overall the OEM and aftermarket support for all these older LC's is far better than most imports their age; parts for older G-Wagens are difficult to find and extremely expensive, for example.

 

[Waikato Willy]

price point was my decision to buy a light duty 70 series
light duty KZJ78 here in NZ when I bought mine were only around $6000-$10,00 NZD
The toyota Hilux of the same year(1994) with pretty much same running gear was worth at least $20,000 (way to expensive for me)
Heavy duty versions were easily double that, this was around 5 years ago now I think

80 series always been expensive here as well around $20,00 for anything decent

95 Series were getting really cheap but are now also getting a big covid tax on them

Now you would be lucky to get anything under $15,000 , people have gone mad, absolute rip off
Light duty 70s are pretty much same price as the HD versions now down here

there is car yards advertising light duty KZJ78s down here for over $30,000 NZD , what turkey goes out and spends this ?

 

[Rigster]

People are listing that says "Land Cruiser" for crazy amounts because, well... people are paying for it. The 02 76 series I imported last year is now $10,000US more on average. I looked at importing a 100 series with the 1HD for my wife, thinking of last years prices, and for what I would LIKE to get I am looking at the average prices being OVER $30,000US now!

In the meantime, I bought a 2004 Escalade for $4000 with only 47,000km. For the savings in what I spent to get it, I can pay for the extra fuel consumption for a LONG time.

The light duty PRADO 70 series are still going for around just over half of the heavy duty 70 series, but it is difficult finding one with lower miles now that they are 25-30 years old. My suggestion... you have to REALLY want one to get one nowadays. And once you have it... hang onto it!

 

[sark]

To answer the original question:

Regardless of price - from my understanding, the prado line was built to offer more civilian comfort compared to the heavy-duty line. Different engine, different suspension, slightly different looks... Where H-series 70-series were being used in industrial mining, heavy duty transport, military, etc., the practicality of a "light-duty" version was obvious. For most cases, someone in Europe who is looking to purchase a land cruiser from Toyota, driving short distances on pavement, would be better served with a 1KZ engine over a 1HZ, for example.

For the target market, the prado in Japan was similar to the 4runner that the US received, to me. A more direct comparison is the Lexus GX line. From what I see and hear, prado's are still very capable, but they're not the same as the 40/70 line.

Being in the US, the roads and terrain can be different than other markets where the prado was more prominent. A 2L-T(E) or 1KZ is also found in JDM 4runners (Surf's), hilux's, even sedans. There's nothing wrong with the prado line inherently, it just serves a different role than H-series engines, for example.

I think part of the confusion I see is that people who aren't nerds about land cruisers end up seeing the badge on a prado, and all thought ends there. Surprising number of people discussing land cruisers lately that don't know much difference between the family lines, engines, etc. Just look at the land cruiser reddit, for example.

I think like lots of things, if people were more educated on land cruisers in general, they would be making a better, more informed decision on which one to buy, if any at all. It would lessen the number of "surprised pikachu faces" I see when people find that their 2L-TE prado is overheating because it's being used inappropriately.

All this being said, people with money will dictate prices if they are willing to pay them. If people want to pay the same for a prado as they would for a HZJ7x, then I say let them.

 

[Douglas S]

I like my cruiser, but if I was going out to purchase one right now there's absolutely no way the value proposition makes any sense. Goes for all of them but it seems especially 7x and 8x trucks.

I paid less than $10k Canadian for a 115km HDJ81 with lockers 10 years ago. Seemed like a good value at the time and a crazy good value in hindsight.

 

[tonydyvr]

Lots of good comments in this thread. I'm beginning to sense that what I'm probably overlooking is original MSRP back when they were new.

I haven't been able to find any records, but given how the trucks are constructed. I'm guessing that the Prado was probably the cheapest of all three to buy new.

So if you lived in Japan and wanted a very capable, reasonably fuel-efficient truck that'd get you anywhere you need to go (without breaking the bank when you bought it) then the Prado would be a good choice.

But as others have pointed out, with the passage of time, overall wear and depreciation tends to make all of the varying models/trims slide down closer together, except with the crazy state of the used market, anything that says "Land Cruiser" on it's butt gets a huge boost - "A rising tide lifts all boats" as they say.

It's just unfortunate to hear about folks in the States who maybe haven't researched the different engines (in particular) but have seen videos of HZJ7x's with 4.2's loaded with gear and grinding up mountainsides and thinking "Hey! That looks neat! I'll buy me one of them 70-series and go overlanding - I found a "Prado" one that looks mint!!"

They may not understand what "2LT" means when they read it on the Facebook Marketplace listing, but they'll find out pretty quick how much a new head costs...

 

[GTSSportCoupe]

Lots of good comments in this thread. I'm beginning to sense that what I'm probably overlooking is original MSRP back when they were new.

I haven't been able to find any records, but given how the trucks are constructed. I'm guessing that the Prado was probably the cheapest of all three to buy new.

You can find MSRP in Japan here for all Toyota models. Scroll down to 'L' for the Landcruiser models. Some models of 70 series Prado were more expensive than the heavy duty 70 series version. TOYOTA cars catalog - reviews, pics, specs and prices | Goo-net Exchange - https://www.goo-net-exchange.com/catalog/TOYOTA/

 

[clintnz]

If you are not carrying big loads then a KZJ7* is a better vehicle both on & offroad than an BJ/HJ/HZJ7* However if you want to carry the 'house & contents' then the bigger diffs & more abuse resistant engines of the heavy duty cruisers start to become useful. Personally I think leaf springs belong only on carts & trailers which turns me off most 70 series a little even though I do love the look.

KZJ78 vs HDJ81? You would have to have a seriously irrational boner for the 70 series look to go for the KZJ all else being equal.

It is very bizarre seeing the likes of KZJ78s, 80 series, Nissan GQs now selling for twice the price they were 10 years ago, with 200000km more on them! But I guess a lot of people have worked out what makes a good 4wd & the difficulty of adapting many modern vehicles for serious 4wd use.

Cheers
Clint

 

[kgrove]

KZJ78 vs HDJ81? You would have to have a seriously irrational boner for the 70 series look to go for the KZJ all else being equal.

It is very bizarre seeing the likes of KZJ78s, 80 series, Nissan GQs now selling for twice the price they were 10 years ago, with 200000km more on them! But I guess a lot of people have worked out what makes a good 4wd & the difficulty of adapting many modern vehicles for serious 4wd use.

I owned an HDJ81 until a few months ago and have been driving a KZJ78 for maybe 6 months now. I can confirm that the general public does indeed have an irrational boner for the KZJ. I easily get 10X more thumbs up signals and smiles from other drivers in my KZJ than I ever did in the HDJ.

From a pure driving standpoint, they're just different. The KZJ is more fun to drive around town as it's more light and nimble, but the HDJ is more comfortable on long trips. They have quite obvious payload and capacity differences that answer for themselves.

Any attempt to try and justify the value of one versus the other is missing the point... they're both 25+ yr old cars and for those of us in the US and Canada (a majority of the posts here) are operating a car unsupported by parts or an installed base. They're both utterly ridiculous and there is no logical justification for driving either, let alone the current prices. NZ, UAE, Indonesia etc where they might be a relatively affordable and still reliable off-roader relative to newer, more expensive alternatives... well then there's a touch more logic to both the value and utility of driving one.

 

[Rigster]

It's a cult.

It's kind of hard finding a "good deal" when you are dealing with feverish eyed fanatics that would nigh on sacrifice themselves to have one.

 

[sark]

It's a cult.

It's kind of hard finding a "good deal" when you are dealing with feverish eyed fanatics that would nigh on sacrifice themselves to have one.

I mean, no regrets

 

[tonydyvr]

If you are not carrying big loads then a KZJ7* is a better vehicle both on & offroad than an BJ/HJ/HZJ7* However if you want to carry the 'house & contents' then the bigger diffs & more abuse resistant engines of the heavy duty cruisers start to become useful. Personally I think leaf springs belong only on carts & trailers which turns me off most 70 series a little even though I do love the look.

KZJ78 vs HDJ81? You would have to have a seriously irrational boner for the 70 series look to go for the KZJ all else being equal.

It is very bizarre seeing the likes of KZJ78s, 80 series, Nissan GQs now selling for twice the price they were 10 years ago, with 200000km more on them! But I guess a lot of people have worked out what makes a good 4wd & the difficulty of adapting many modern vehicles for serious 4wd use.

Cheers
Clint

I personally find the biggest issue most folks have with leaf springs is driving on less-than-perfect roads when your rig is empty. I have a leaf-sprung truck that'll shake your fillings out on every bump and pothole when it's empty. But throw 300-400 kg in the back? Nice and smooth.

 

[FJ40 that green thing]

The price for prados has jumped overseas as well, I think we're just starting to see that reflected in the USA. I bought a KZJ78 recently and think it's fantastic for what I wanted it for. That said, it would be difficult to choose it over a similar mileage and priced 80 series. 80 series is just so much more vehicle. The box prado is quicker, more nimble and has the unique factor looking so much like the rest of the 70 series cruisers you see around the world so I get it. Kzj78 seems to be more reliable than the older LJs, maybe that's part of it too. Just 3 or 4 years ago 80s were dime a dozen. Easily could find good examples under $7-8k so I think the price has just jumped on older, retro, quality offroaders of any brand. Covid, inflation, new car availability and pricing and the explosion of "overlanding" all seem to have played a part.

 

[vega01]

Just out of curiosity, because I never had an occasion to drive an 80, would you please summarise in a few points what you mean by "80 series is just so much more vehicle" compared to KZJ7*, which I know?

 

[FJ40 that green thing]

Just out of curiosity, because I never had an occasion to drive an 80, would you please summarise in a few points what you mean by "80 series is just so much more vehicle" compared to KZJ7*, which I know?

Sure, an 80 series is heavier, more robust built. It drives with much more stability and control. The 80 series you sit down in it more and it's more stable at higher speeds. The kzj78 drives more like a 4runner (surf) or hilux type pickup from the late 80s to mid 90s.

 

[Gun Runner 5]

Hi all -

I don't mean to start a flame-war here, but I've had a genuine question for a while now that has only become amplified as all Cruisers continue to sell for crazy prices.

In a nutshell, unless price and/or vehicle availability were a consideration, is there a reason to get a Prado over either a standard 70 series or an 80-series?

It seems to me that the original 70-series was a "capability over comfort" vehicle designed first and foremost for rugged offroad capability at the expense of comfort. Leaf springs, stronger rear diff, bigger less-stressed engines, front locker options, etc. The sort of thing you get in something like an HZJ73 or HZJ77.

The amenities offered in the Prados in terms of coils, slightly more luxo interior, etc. might make them more comfortable on the road, but if you were looking for a comfortable daily and willing to sacrifice the top 5% of offroad capability, why wouldn't you get an 80-series? Way more comfort and features than a Prado.

It just surprises me to see a N.American Land Cruiser specialist shop offering (at the time I write this) three sample vehicles - a 92 HZJ77, a 92 HDJ81, and a 94 KZJ78, all in apparently similar good condition, all within 15,000 miles of each other on the odo, and all within $2K of each other in asking price ($20K, $22K, and $21K respectively).

Don't get me wrong, I'd take any 90s Toyota product over just about any other comparably-aged offering every day of the week. Nothing at all wrong with the Prado per se.

But can someone explain why, if I were looking at those three vehicles, I'd choose the Prado over both of the other ones?

Thanks!

There is another factor that hasn’t been mentioned in this thread thus far. When driving a 70 you’ll hear “cool Jeep or Isuzu” on a fairly regular basis (which is priceless). You’ll never hear that in an 80 Series.