" high speed " desert in an 80 series (5 Viewers)

[Mieser]

I was about to ask @Mieser if he worked for Fox Lol! As I was reading it almost sounded like they were rival salesman.

Nope, I am just interested in what a $125 Fox IFP shock can do vs a $450 King 2.5 Resi

I guessing there is a lot left on the table with 'factory' valving in a 2.0 shock. The Fox IFP is the cheapest shock that I have found that can be revalved at home. You need a 'special' needle to manage the gas charge, but other than that they look pretty much like a standard 5/8" shaft shock on the inside.

Is a $450 shock better.....King, Fox, Icon, etc...yes. I am wondering how many people really NEED a 2.5 resi shock honestly. I've seen some pretty amazing things done with a 2.0 shock and good bumps with a property setup suspension.

 

[AutoCraft Aus]

For those who like to fiddle, a 2.0 can be ok, no doubt, but the surface area a 2.5 gives you in freedom to move shouldnt be discounted either.

To be honest, how many of us need to build a hybrid truck either, when we could buy something that has 4wd, and not mess with it.

Is an 80 worth more than a 90s jeep Cherokee?

Who really NEEDS an 80 ?

See how that sounds ?

 

[jtwopark]

For those who like to fiddle, a 2.0 can be ok, no doubt, but the surface area a 2.5 gives you in freedom to move shouldnt be discounted either.

To be honest, how many of us need to build a hybrid truck either, when we could buy something that has 4wd, and not mess with it.

Is an 80 worth more than a 90s jeep Cherokee?

Who really NEEDS an 80 ?

See how that sounds ?

some on mud don't like to hear the words "jeep" very much....strange thing is they are as white as white can be....they don't even speak japanese!..only japanese words or word they know is Toyota. go figure!

I disagree on the shock aspect for the 80. We or I do need the 2.5 if not a 3.0. If you are saying that an 80 is fine with 2.0 then you should be driving a hybrid highlander and not an 80....just a thought

 

[jtwopark]

Nope, I am just interested in what a $125 Fox IFP shock can do vs a $450 King 2.5 Resi

I guessing there is a lot left on the table with 'factory' valving in a 2.0 shock. The Fox IFP is the cheapest shock that I have found that can be revalved at home. You need a 'special' needle to manage the gas charge, but other than that they look pretty much like a standard 5/8" shaft shock on the inside.

Is a $450 shock better.....King, Fox, Icon, etc...yes. I am wondering how many people really NEED a 2.5 resi shock honestly. I've seen some pretty amazing things done with a 2.0 shock and good bumps with a property setup suspension.

The fox shocks bottom out..over and over and over and then they start to fade. The difference is there just one has to know what to look for in terms of how ones truck is handling the terrain. I blew the same fox shock in about 3 days of wheeling. Seals blew and they won't warranty it because they stated that I had abused the shock...AND YES I did.

The ride on the fox are pretty darn good for the money until you start to use them as off road shocks. I can see how a "light" 80 user will be impressed with these shocks. Highway ride is pretty darn good. Just high speed, 60+ miles of rough dirt roads can take a toll on these shocks though.

One of the best bang for the buck but then again, pro comp shocks are $35 for similar on road feel!

 

[txlonghorn]

The fox shocks bottom out..over and over and over and then they start to fade. The difference is there just one has to know what to look for in terms of how ones truck is handling the terrain. I blew the same fox shock in about 3 days of wheeling. Seals blew and they won't warranty it because they stated that I had abused the shock...AND YES I did.

The ride on the fox are pretty darn good for the money until you start to use them as off road shocks. I can see how a "light" 80 user will be impressed with these shocks. Highway ride is pretty darn good. Just high speed, 60+ miles of rough dirt roads can take a toll on these shocks though.

One of the best bang for the buck but then again, pro comp shocks are $35 for similar on road feel!

It sounds like your Fox's were either incorrectly valved or the wrong length. A similarly valved 2.0/2.5/whatever from any reputable company in the right length will perform similarly. If you're comparing the Fox entry-level IFP to a King 2.5 remote resi... well then that's apples to oranges.

 

[Qball]

some on mud don't like to hear the words "jeep" very much....strange thing is they are as white as white can be....they don't even speak japanese!..only japanese words or word they know is Toyota. go figure!

I disagree on the shock aspect for the 80. We or I do need the 2.5 if not a 3.0. If you are saying that an 80 is fine with 2.0 then you should be driving a hybrid highlander and not an 80....just a thought

Hey hey hey, I'm fine with 2.0 and I'm not gonna drive a highlander hybrid....granted it's a pretty nice car.

 

[Qball]

It sounds like your Fox's were either incorrectly valved or the wrong length. A similarly valved 2.0/2.5/whatever from any reputable company in the right length will perform similarly. If you're comparing the Fox entry-level IFP to a King 2.5 remote resi... well then that's apples to oranges.

Fox doesn't do custom valving till you hit 2.5 price range as far as I know. Come on guys it's a 110 dollar shock, not a triple bypass 3.0 so what do you expect?

If you ask more out of your 80 with all the high speed desert business then ball up and buy at least 2.5 shock because there isn't a 2.0 shock that can handle high speed desert runs in this 6000+ lb beast. Don't know why anyone even try to argue about that unless you never tried it.

 

[Mieser]

Fox doesn't do custom valving till you hit 2.5 price range as far as I know. Come on guys it's a 110 dollar shock, not a triple bypass 3.0 so what do you expect?

If you ask more out of your 80 with all the high speed desert business then ball up and buy at least 2.5 shock because there isn't a 2.0 shock that can handle high speed desert runs in this 6000+ lb beast. Don't know why anyone even try to argue about that unless you never tried it.

Everyone seems to think that they are Robby Gordon or whatever with deep pockets. I'm not saying that 2.5s don't do a better job. I am saying that not everyone needs that much shock nor can afford it. Why not actually learn something about shocks and shock tuning vs just jumping on the 2.5 King, Fox, Icon, or Radflo, or whatever bus.

YOU can valve 2.0 IFP stuff yourself. The only real special tool you need is the safety needle to manage the gas charge. The rest is pretty typical to a 2.0 5/8" shaft shock. The dust cap is just a light press fit. The IFP does not use a wear band however.

Fox will custom valve any of the slightly higher end 2.0 resi stuff.

The problem, with ANY of these shocks....2.0 IFP to 2.5 bypass....is that GUESSING at valving is generally not going to get you anywhere. There are just too many variables. Companies like Icon have done a lot of specific 80-series stuff. They can probably get you half way there, maybe a little closer with some of the custom spring/shock packages.

To get the total performance out of set of shocks, any set of shocks, they need to be tuned to YOUR vehicle and YOUR butt.

I know it's a jeep....but go back and watch what is possible with a 2.0 shock on 5000lb JK in this post...

" high speed " desert in an 80 series

That is a lower end 2.0 11" travel resi shock with a foam bumpstop ( basically just a secondary rate spring only, no damping ).

I can't see many 80 series owners doing nearly anything that crazy.

In my opinion, the 80 series suffers from a few issues in the suspension....

#1, Limited uptravel, especially on the rear suspension. The rear suspension has 1.5" less uptravel than the rear suspension with the frame level. Most 80s sit a little stink-bug to help this. If you want to go fast, lifting the vehicle and then install bumpstop spacers is not the right path. It won't matter what shock you have if you only have 3-4" of uptravel out of the suspension. You need that axle to have time to slow down. More uptravel, as long as overall height is kept in check, will be good. 50/50 travel out of the shock is a good place to start, but I think better things might start to happen as the travel bias moves towards more uptravel vs downtravel.

#2, Bumpstops. The rear inner bumpstops are basically designed to be an overload spring. They are stiff and seem to cause kick issues on the rear suspension, especially with limited uptravel. The front bumpstops are also pretty stiff and long. The front axle will actually compress in the chassis till the metal on the bumpstop cup contacts the lower spring mount without binding. That means that the stiff front bumpstops are engaged for at least 2.5-3" of suspension uptravel!

#3. Springs. Not many 80-series coils maintain any preload at full droop. You want preload. You only want enough spring rate to hold up the vehicle at the height you want with that preload you need. There are some packaging limitations on the 80 series if the springs where to have those features. We are starting to see more dual rate coils that basically block out the soft section of the coil to help this. The stiff part of the coil is a balance for overall vehicle weight.

I'm currently building a hybrid so I don't think too much of what I end up doing on the suspension will carry over, but the theory stays the same. I'm at a point where the stock LX450 springs, especially the rear, will likely be too heavy a rate and give too much lift! The total vehicle weight I will be dealing with will likely be about 4000lbs to 4500lbs loaded for a trip with people/gear/fuel.

 

[jtwopark]

so how does all this help the op with his goals?..we dont need theory we need tried and tested things that work on the 80. If the op were to purchase KING shocks, they are out in the desert 2-3 times a week to help ANYONE with king shocks go faster and safer! He will get the attention needed to tune his shocks correctly.

 

[AutoCraft Aus]

It sounds like your Fox's were either incorrectly valved or the wrong length. A similarly valved 2.0/2.5/whatever from any reputable company in the right length will perform similarly. If you're comparing the Fox entry-level IFP to a King 2.5 remote resi... well then that's apples to oranges.

Having used, built, and put together Fox 2.0s, the Icon 2.0's as an out of the box unit, which do ride alot like the 2.5s until pushed hard, are still the best out of the box bolt in ride control and handling package you will get.

And we are fitting them to up to 7500lb trucks, in slinky long travel as well, 11.5" stroke.

But for vehicle protection for the O.P I dont think 2.0s are the answer for vehicle preservation.

2.5s will go past the limit of moat people abilities when set up right, but the vehicle has to be set up right as well to maximise the abilities.

Height, sway bar, wheel alignment set up, neg camber, and then when it all just works, brake upgrade is next, because the speed carried with the car feeling automatically safer, sitting flatter cornering, makes the brakes feel like they arent as good any more.

 

[AutoCraft Aus]

Everyone seems to think that they are Robby Gordon or whatever with deep pockets.

Not me... my parents are still alive.

[Is it to soon ?... maybe its to soon. Aussie humor thing.]

A sad thing, That family has done alot for motorsport over a very long time. R.I.P #bajabob.

The only real special tool you need is the safety needle to manage the gas charge.

Or drill it and fit a valve set while its apart if you can fit the nipple sticking out.

To get the total performance out of set of shocks, any set of shocks, they need to be tuned to YOUR vehicle and YOUR butt.

This is where adjustment comes in for easy tuning, and going in a direction. [CDC for its lack of line pressure on fast bumps helps ALOT]

In my opinion, the 80 series suffers from a few issues in the suspension....

#1, Limited uptravel, especially on the rear suspension. The rear suspension has 1.5" less uptravel than the rear suspension with the frame level. Most 80s sit a little stink-bug to help this. If you want to go fast, lifting the vehicle and then install bumpstop spacers is not the right path. It won't matter what shock you have if you only have 3-4" of uptravel out of the suspension. You need that axle to have time to slow down. More uptravel, as long as overall height is kept in check, will be good. 50/50 travel out of the shock is a good place to start, but I think better things might start to happen as the travel bias moves towards more uptravel vs downtravel.

This is where our slinky kit works on 5.5" up travel, out of 12" stroke, with the 1 1/4" bump spacer factored in, whis is pretty close to 50/50.

Built in hydro bump zone in the last 40mm up travel helps slow it down ALOT at fast piston speed.

The problem with lack of down travel in a cruiser means lifted wheels, even cornering, and that means chewed tyres, shifts in weight, lack of traction. The rear really needs as much down travel as it can.

#2, Bumpstops. The rear inner bumpstops are basically designed to be an overload spring. They are stiff and seem to cause kick issues on the rear suspension, especially with limited uptravel.

We normally remove those, and on heavier trucks run air bags in the coils for light to heavy load, or heavy tow bar weight too, but they work well as a shorter option no spacer to become part of the spring rate on compression on a heavier truck. I have also run these in the front coils in 80s, to have some adjustable spring rate, handy for tuning with different spring rates on the spot sometimes too.

The front bumpstops are also pretty stiff and long. The front axle will actually compress in the chassis till the metal on the bumpstop cup contacts the lower spring mount without binding. That means that the stiff front bumpstops are engaged for at least 2.5-3" of suspension uptravel!

From the Aug 92 update we got chassis bump stops on our 80s as the coil towers were bending badly just running the inner rubber stop, so for us they come in contact with about 40mm of up travel and we cant bottom them out.

This is what happens without the chassis bump stops on early models. [From memory the USA get the bump stop bracket from bottom to join to coil tower to hold it against chassis with holes to bolt the bump stop on, just no bump stop * see bottom pic]

And this with no inner chassis double plate.

This is SNOWY set up so 96 with the plate on, but no rubber bump stop on it. [yes, had weld the panhard bracket on LHD too for cracks]

#3. Springs. Not many 80-series coils maintain any preload at full droop. You want preload. You only want enough spring rate to hold up the vehicle at the height you want with that preload you need. There are some packaging limitations on the 80 series if the springs where to have those features. We are starting to see more dual rate coils that basically block out the soft section of the coil to help this. The stiff part of the coil is a balance for overall vehicle weight.

Its why we went tapered wire [more block height room] and dual rate tunable by the length, taper from one rate to another.

Our pre load at full droop shocks bolted in is between 120 and 160 lb front and rear, depending on intermediate or heavy coil.

Enough to allow wheel movement while crawling on tippy toes, without transferring that movement into the vehicle to induce momentum.

I'm currently building a hybrid so I don't think too much of what I end up doing on the suspension will carry over, but the theory stays the same. I'm at a point where the stock LX450 springs, especially the rear, will likely be too heavy a rate and give too much lift! The total vehicle weight I will be dealing with will likely be about 4000lbs to 4500lbs loaded for a trip with people/gear/fuel.

Arent they all just hybrids of a standard truck

I think at 4000-4500, half of what we are really talking about with a loaded fitted out 80, that 2.5s with the extra size and capacity of oil, and surface area make alot of sense, if your saying 2.0s work well at the weight your building for.

And #4, I think is very valid is the rear lower arms being straight chassis to diff means roll steer when trying to improve handling. We went heavy sway bar for rear bar, wheel carrier / long range tank set ups to prevent roll, and hence steer from the rear, but the only ways to solve that are the easier, make the lower arms 250-300m longer for a larger arc of movement, and /or move the front mounts outward to change the operating angle.

Like Toyota did with the 100 when it went to IFS, once they got a pointy front end set up, they had to work on roll steer from the rear, so tapered the arms to help with this. When you get the right front set up in an 80 where it also becomes pointy [goes where you point it, when you point it there] roll steer in the rear becomes alot more obvious, especially with rear weight.

 

[Mieser]

Arent they all just hybrids of a standard truck

I think at 4000-4500, half of what we are really talking about with a loaded fitted out 80, that 2.5s with the extra size and capacity of oil, and surface area make alot of sense, if your saying 2.0s work well at the weight your building for.

And #4, I think is very valid is the rear lower arms being straight chassis to diff means roll steer when trying to improve handling. We went heavy sway bar for rear bar, wheel carrier / long range tank set ups to prevent roll, and hence steer from the rear, but the only ways to solve that are the easier, make the lower arms 250-300m longer for a larger arc of movement, and /or move the front mounts outward to change the operating angle.

Like Toyota did with the 100 when it went to IFS, once they got a pointy front end set up, they had to work on roll steer from the rear, so tapered the arms to help with this. When you get the right front set up in an 80 where it also becomes pointy [goes where you point it, when you point it there] roll steer in the rear becomes alot more obvious, especially with rear weight.

All good stuff, thank you.

I'm not saying 2.0's will be as good as 2.5 resi stuff BUT are 2.5s really 3-4x better (for the money)? I'd love to eventually get some 2.5s on this project, but that will come later. I really want to see what a set of custom tuned 2.0 IFPs will do for $125 a corner.

#4. Rear suspension. Great point. With the parallel lower arms the roll axis is basically defined by the slope of the lower arms. When the 80 series chassis is lifted at all, the rear roll axis goes positive ( and the front also?) That is generally not what we want. If anything, having it be slightly negative would not be a bad thing. I should plug everything in a link calculator to see how it looks....and what common changes would do. My hybrid is going to be very close to stock height however.

The rear suspension really isn't that tolerant of lift before the rear suspension goes into a positive roll axis. At full bump there is only 3" of vertical height before the arm is level.

The front suspension seems a lot better off. At full bump there is 6.5" difference from the radius arm mounting point to the axle centerline when the chassis is level. The front roll axis has a more direct link to the driver because it is the steering axle. It would be nice to keep that negative if at all possible.

It would also be interesting to see where the vehicle roll axis is at stock. That would be interesting also as far as chassis understeer/oversteer traits. From what I have seen in the chassis, both ends are going to have a positive roll axis with just about any lift. The rear for sure pretty much even at stock height. The front goes positive shortly after.

Big tall sidewalls aren't helping anything. If someone was really pushing it. I imagine that a bit of negative camber might help with the sidewall folding over. Big tires are expensive to run like that in a straight line however.

Cheers.
Good stuff. Thanks again for the input.

 

[AutoCraft Aus]

All good stuff, thank you.

I'm not saying 2.0's will be as good as 2.5 resi stuff BUT are 2.5s really 3-4x better (for the money)? I'd love to eventually get some 2.5s on this project, but that will come later. I really want to see what a set of custom tuned 2.0 IFPs will do for $125 a corner.

Its the old drag racing theory.

You can go 14 seconds for 10k.

You can go 10 seconds for 100k,

You can go 5 seconds for 1 million.

To go up in % of quality and function, the price point isnt linear to the added performance.

The one thing I see most fro $125 a corner, is just when you get them right, after doing some running, they will leak, wear, and you will be pulling them out after doing all the tuning time, and ins and outs, thinking "I should just get something a little better in build quality this time"

Big tall sidewalls aren't helping anything. If someone was really pushing it. I imagine that a bit of negative camber might help with the sidewall folding over. Big tires are expensive to run like that in a straight line however.

Cheers.
Good stuff. Thanks again for the input.

No problem,

The big sidewalls we normally set around 20 minutes neg camber for the average person to stop outside tyre edge wear and improve turn in.

On my own live axles around 40-45 minutes works well as a compromise between straight line stability, tyre wear, and turn in on 35s.

I have run up to 1.5 neg before though, but the rear, even with sway bar HD coils, etc just cant cope when the front is to pointy, roll steer doesnt help with this either.

This is the 35" sidewall scuffing on 17s I get in the front of my 80 with 45 minutes neg camber, 3 degrees caster, 3" lift, with the suspension set up I run of bypasses in 2.5s slinky set up, yet to fit a HD sway bar. The tread block rounding and scrubbing, the scuffed sidewalls at 36 psi, signs the suspension is making the tyre become the weak link in the system.