Here I go...removing the head (1 Viewer)

[ayerswc]

I posted yesterday a photo that showed a broken head bolt that I discovered on my truck while prepping for a exhaust leak fix.

After getting some advice from fellow MUD members as to how I should handle the broken bolt situation, it was decided that since I already had all the exhaust/intake manifold stuff off, I might as well pull the valve cover off, and pull the head to have it rebuilt. Ideally, with the head removed, I will have more direct access to extract or retap the broken bolt.

After pulling the valve cover, I was pleasantly surprised to see that it was clean inside, and that the gasket looked to be in good condition. The bolts holding the valve cover were barely cinched tight.

With the valve cover off, I was able to get most all of the head bolts off. They are tourqued to over 80 lbs, so it takes a strong pull to break them free. I was worried that I might snap off other bolts, but they all came off cleanly.

A few questions for those that have waded these waters before.
I noticed two of the valves/ rockers seemed bent (third one from the back). Is this normal, or something that will be corrected through a rebuild?

Also, I had a difficult time getting to the two back bolts on the driver's side. Is it possible to remove this heater/coolant fitting from the head? If so, what is the best technique?

Thanks!

 

[Spike Strip]

I'm not sure if you're asking about push rods (under the adjusting nuts/screws) or valves, but yes, if they are bad/bent, the shop should replace them.

When you remove the head bolts, push rods, lifters, keep them in order, in plastic baggies or whatever. I stick them through a piece of heavy cardboard and number the spots. You can take the headbolts with you and let the shop clean them up.

Are those air injector nozzles welded up ?

 

[SmartyPants]

Not bent, just looks that way. I also thought the same thing the first time I did a valve adjustment, but it's just an optical illusion.

 

[norsk]

yeah that heater T pipe is a PIA

remove the rubber hose, then unscrew the lateral pipe, then the vertical pipe can be removed.

Now, if it is really rusty, it can crush the pipe in the process. Then you need to get a used one from one of the parts vendors


and yeah, that is very low carbon deposit on everything

dougbert

 

[Spudman]

I would replace all those head bolts with new ones, whenever I've replaced a head I just buy a kit which includes bolts and gaskets etc.

 

[ayerswc]

Are those air injector nozzles welded up ?

No, I think that a PO used those to fill the holes left after removing the air rail. I have some Jim C threaded plugs to install in their place.

Spike, do I need to remove the push rods and lifters? I was hopeful that I could pull the head without touching that stuff and let the mechanic that does the rebuild worry about all of that.

Dougbert, regarding that Heater T, on the lateral arm, do I grab it near the base at the thick part, or further out where it is thinner. It is gunked up so bad that I can't tell where it is supposed to break free.

 

[hward1]

the T the small side turns back towards you after removing the hose - maybe 17mm but not sure -- maybe 19mm for then removing the larger part that goes into the head - shouldnt be to hard to turn - great time to replace the two hoses - also when putting them back in a type of pipe liquid seal is used on the threads - check to make sure what type - -- love the pics keep posting

 

[GLTHFJ60]

You do not remove the lifters, but you do have to remove the pushrods and valvetrain assembly.

 

[norsk]

No, I think that a PO used those to fill the holes left after removing the air rail. I have some Jim C threaded plugs to install in their place.

Spike, do I need to remove the push rods and lifters? I was hopeful that I could pull the head without touching that stuff and let the mechanic that does the rebuild worry about all of that.

Dougbert, regarding that Heater T, on the lateral arm, do I grab it near the base at the thick part, or further out where it is thinner. It is gunked up so bad that I can't tell where it is supposed to break free.

My ASCII pic:

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Where the pointer is pointed
The lateral screws into the "nut" welded to the vertical. And yeah, it probably is very rusted
and you might replace the temp sending unit. Get an OEM if you can, I went through several aftermarket ones units and they died

dougbert

 

[Spike Strip]

Yes, as stated, remove the push rods. There's nothing to it, just lift them out and keep in order, once you remove the rocker arm assy. Do it as stated in the 2F FSM - PDF download in my sig line.

Lifters are easy to remove with a strong magnet. I'd just check the surfaces anyway for issues. Also keep them in order.

Keep the bolts in order, too. All bolts. Bag and Tag. I always do it 'cuz I'm a anal and it saves time and possible headache later.

You can leave the Heater hose pipes in place and let the machine shop remove when cleaning the head. Just remember where every thing goes. Take good pix for yourself. Axe questions.

Those two head bolts under the rear lift hook are a PITA, but you'll get it. Remember to reinstall the rear hook !!

 

[ayerswc]

I've been doing some research on this head rebuild and found a comment from Jim C from a 2012 post. Below:


"Ultimate cheap & durable head:
-remove soft plug
-steam clean
-magnaflux
-mill as much as needed
-replace softplug with allen plug
-install new SBC valves, springs, hardware, yadda...
-chase all threaded holes
-paint bright red.

The advantage to doing the SBC valves & springs and attendant seat & guide work is it costs less than returning to factory spec and gives a better result.

Any other stuff like grinding ports and manifold matching is stuff to do if you have nothing else going on in life.

Don't install heavier springs unless you enjoy replacing cams & lifters. "

Could someone help me out by expounding on yadda yadda on the red line? I want to make sure that I give accurate instructions to the machine shop.

 

[Spike Strip]

He means all the things that would go with Chevy sized valves, like guides, springs, cutting the seats , yadda, yadda... The machine shop will know -- IF they want to do it and know what they're doing. There are some other threads going where someone is having a hard time finding a shop to do it.

The machinist I go to, who has done hundreds of 2Fs, did not want to do the chevy stuff, at the time, as OEM valves, guides, springs are still available and that is what he was familiar with, and of course, the Toyota stuff is very good quality.

If you can find a shop that's familiar or willing to give it a shot, Stainless SBC valves is the way to go. As Jim says, cheaper and better.

Search for Jim C's postings (40 & 60 section) and you'll get more info. There is a recent thread, somewhere, where he reiterates all the info...

It would be nice if things like this were in the FAQ (subtle HINT), 'cuz I'm sure the gurus get tired of repeating themselves...

 

[norsk]

Could someone help me out by expounding on yadda yadda on the red line? I want to make sure that I give accurate instructions to the machine shop

Found the SS chevy valve specs in my head rebuild thread

https://forum.ih8mud.com/60-series-...putting-rebuilt-upgraded-head-my-fj60-2f.html

and found info at https://forum.ih8mud.com/showpost.php?p=8191880&postcount=8

I ordered my SS Chevy valves from: http://www.rpmmachine.com/si-valves-chevrolet-claimerv8.shtml

Exhaust: 1.5 inch
Intake: 1.84 inch

Length 4.88 inch

There are two part numbers for SBC on the above page: E-2809-POL and SEV-2809

I cannot remember which was retired and which was current, but when I asked to order them (rpmmachine - located in Salt Lake City area), they selected the currently available

An email JimC sent me in response to my question listed at the end of the email:

I don't remember what the difference is. Call and ask 'em which would be better for a low RPM torker engine.

On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 4:45 PM, Doug Thompson <norsk5@yahoo.com> wrote:

thanks, got the plugs

on the valves, they list two different part numbers for each of INT and EXH

Size & Valve Length Price
1.500 Exhaust 4.88 21-4N E-2809-POL 7.50
1.500 Exhaust 4.88 21-4N SEV-2809 7.50
1.84 Intake 4.88 21-4N SEV-3091 7.50
1.84 Intake 4.88 21-2N I-3091-POL 7.50


My machinist found the right oil seals and the right springs (small SBC springs), keepers and retainers.
Determining the "right" springs, I assume means in fitting and in pressure. I don't have that info. My machist had a spring tool machine where he could determine the old spring's strength and matched them with Chevy strings.

And as noted elsewhere: Get the oil galley fixed

Quoting JimC: https://forum.ih8mud.com/showpost.php?p=8195428&postcount=23

Ultimate cheap & durable head:
-remove soft plug [the oil galley]
-steam clean
-magnaflux
-mill as much as needed
-replace softplug with allen plug
-install new SBC valves, springs, hardware, yadda... [keepers, retainers]
-chase all threaded holes
-paint bright red.

The advantage to doing the SBC valves & springs and attendant seat & guide work is it costs less than returning to factory spec and gives a better result.

Any other stuff like grinding ports and manifold matching is stuff to do if you have nothing else going on in life.

Don't install heavier springs unless you enjoy replacing cams & lifters.

endquote

dougbert

 

[Zack1978]

When I had my head rebuilt this past summer, the machine shop would not do the Chevy valves. They didn't seem to know what I was talking about, so they went with OE style parts.

Zack

 

[ayerswc]

Thanks for all of the advice as I work on this head removal project.
I was able to wrench on the truck a bit last night, so I figured that I would post an update.

I started out by removing the rocker arm. I used the shop manual link in Spike Strip's sig to remove the bolts in the correct order. Once the bolts were all out, the arm slides up and out pretty easily.

With the rocker arm out of the way, I set out to remove the push rods. As a noob to this level of engine work, I did not previously realize that the push rods are not actually physically screw connected to the rocker assembly. In my original post, I had thought that one rod may have been bent but that was not the case,which became evident as soon as the rocker arm was out.

The rods were all crudded up at the bottom. Not sure if this is normal or not.

I also followed Spike's suggestion to use a cardboard box to keep the push rods in order.

NextI set out to remove the heater fitting to gain better access to the final two head bolts. I had soaked them pretty well with PB Blaster a few days prior, and the horizontal piece backed out with a little coaxing. The fitting appears to be brass, and is definitely a softer material, so be careful. I could see the wrench starting to round the edges a bit. Thanks to Norsk for helping me know where to place the wrench. The vertical piece came out a bit easier.

With the added access, I was able to get the last two bolts off. The back one next to the firewall is the most difficult. I finally found the right combination of socket depth, extension length, etc.

I then tried to get the head to move to confirm that it was ready to come off. At first it wouldn't budge; even with me using the pry notch on the passenger side.

I quickly realized that I had forgotten to remove the final bolt near the center of the head. As soon as it was out, the head shifted on the block.

It didn't take long to realize that it weighs a ton, and for someone my size, I was going to need a hand lifting it up and off the block. Hopefully I'll be able to grab a buddy or neighbor today to give me a hand with the removal.

 

[LAMBCRUSHER]

cherry pickers are cool...

the rundown on the chevy valve gear...it costs more to ream out the old guides, buy and press in new ones, ream those to spec and buy new valves with in spec stem dimensions to match the once again in spec guide dimensions and face the seats than it does to gently open up the existing guides to fit the larger stem diameter of the new and cheaper chevy STAINLESS STEEL valve, grind the existing seats to fit the new cheaper valves, and provides/install correct hardware for the new cheaper valves. If the existing valves and guides are within spec, they are the most prudent way to go as it will keep the costs lower. IF the guides are worn or the valve stems or both, it is less costly to "upgrayed" to the stainless chevy gear.


now, there are several issues to keep in mind here...
1. if the machine shop doesn't know what you're asking for, or indicates any confusion there whatsoever, go somewhere else- these guys either don't want the work or don't know how to do it, but are big enough boys to turn it down...
2. if the machinist asks you what PNs to use for this, go somewhere else- this guy is a novice...
3. if the machinist tries to push you into going with 1.60 valves or not in stainless, go somewhere else- this guy just sees dollar signs in your eyes...

the 1.84 intake and 1.50 exhaust valves require just a tiny bit of opening up of existing gear; so no replacement seats or guides are required, no time in removal and replacement, and no tooling costs, just new cheaper stainless steel valves and spring hardware and seals.

definately have the oil galley plug tapped and a new threaded plug installed...
check pushrods for bends
use quality gaskets and don't forget to retorque the head at least 2 times after run up and before 3000 miles...

also, if you want to keep feeding it 87 octane, don't mill the head any more than needed for flatness...HTH

 

[norsk]

Looking good! I failed remove the rocker arm according to the FSM - good job by you

And YES, you need at least 2 people to lift out the head and to place back in. I am 6'3", 250 lbs and that is one heavy piece of iron to lift and hold in an engine bay. It is a 2 man OR a 1 Picker job

dougbert

 

[Benjaman]

Looking good! Have that head rebuilt, and you may get an other 200k out of the engine.

 

[ayerswc]

Got the head off today!

I had a buddy stop by and together we got it off. Even with two people we could tell that it was going to be kind of difficult, so we slid a piece of 1x4 lumber under the front of the head and one under the rear, then just picked it up like a couple of peasants carrying the high king laid back on his liter.

The gasket looked to be the graphite type and appeared to be in good shape. Based on the condition of the gasket, I almost wonder if the engine has been rebuilt before sometime in the past 5 years. Then again, I have no basis of 2F head gasket experience to make a call like that.

Here is a pic of the cylinders. They looked ok to me, but if anyone sees something amiss, let me know.

 

[Benjaman]

Get a vacuum to that block asap, or it will rust by morning. I like to paint on some 90 wt oil while it sits, or even better is Hyperlube. it can be bought at local auto parts stores. It's tacky as heck. I've used it as assembly lube on many builds.



http://www.hyperlube.com/c3/Oil-Supplement-c6.html