Hellroaring vs. National Luna vs. PowerGate

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NLXTACY

Wits' End
Joined
Dec 7, 2007
Threads
111
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20,769
Location
Medford, OR
Ok folks, I keep reading...and reading...and reading and I just cannot bring myself to make a decision on which way to go. I know there are going to be a lot of people who say its a personal decision, but there must be some huge benefits of going one way or another. What I just dont see anywhere is a competitive matrix and that is exactly what is needed. I know Hellroaring is good, I know National Luna is good and if you believe the marketing speak, PowerGate is the best thing since the transfer case. What I am hoping for is, "This is better because..."

Here is what I need out of my dual battery system:
• My wife can drive it and I dont have to worry about her getting stranded.
• The system needs to be as automatic as possible.
• Flicking a switch here or there is totally fine so long as everything is done from the cab.
• Installation is not an issue. Being stock there is a blank slate and I am willing to go through the pains of installing any of them.
• I will be getting two of the exact same Odyssey ala Sears batteries.
• I plan on getting a third Odyssey motorcycle battery to install in the space in front of main battery. The one that 450 DUDE set up: https://forum.ih8mud.com/80-series-tech/201721-single-tray-dual-battery-install.html
• A battery monitor is way cool BUT I can get other dual battery monitors from Xantrex (Link 20) if need be.
• I will be installing a fixed jumper cable system using Wrangler's battery to grill jumper cable kit: Wrangler NW - Jumper Cable Kit, 16ft, 2 gauge
• Engel fridge is way in the future as is a winch.
• Need to make sure any system can easily jumped in case of failure
• Unsure whether its better to run off main and use backup as a backup or use main for starting and vehicle functions and just use spare for accessories. I am open to anything at this point.
• The Toyota necessities NEED to be protected.

What worries me:
• Hellroaring, the busses are really close to each other and people seem to be always trimming the lugs.
• PowerGate, seems overly simple which means there is less options available. Haven't seen enough installs on MUD.
• National Luna, the solenoid worries me a little and I plan on running 0/2 cable so the cable in the kit is spare parts for me.

About the truck:
97 LX which is currently stock. I will be adding a 150A alternator using Photoman's bracket which I already received. I will eventually be adding a roof rack and a sliding solar panel (complete write up in the works). There is an inverter in the plans as well once I decide what I want out of a drawer system.
 
My .02$ (FYI I run a simple isolator system currently and to date works flawlessly)

All three are good systems but if money were no object I would go Powergate, no question (the Luna is pretty pricey as well)
Simple does not necessarily mean less options but it does mean less to fuss with. For me a “one-way valve” for current is perfect. I decide how and where the current will be routed from each battery knowing they are isolated in case of a large draw. I intend to replace my current isolator with something from Powergate but currently the budget is going other places.

I have the Natl Luna install brochure and talked to the rep from Equip at CM this year. I like the volt meters but after doing some reading of the install book I decided against it. The install says a winch should be driven by the main battery and looking over the kit I agree. It does not appear the kit is designed to handle high loads. Not horrible but I like my winch on the aux batt, so it wasn’t the right kit for me.

Hellroaring has gotten great reviews and while it seems like a quality system I dislike the switches. I have made several smarta$$ comments over the years about the ability to self-jump being “mandatory” for some users. It has a certain “cool factor” but shouldn’t be the driving factor in the purchase. I could be wrong but the potential for a “driver error” (switch in wrong position leaving one or more batteries dead) was enough to dissuade me.
I prefer my systems "simple" just like me:hillbilly:
 
NLXTACY,

How's your project coming along?

I'm also interested to hear about your rack install (with lights?) and the "sliding solar panel" write-up.

Thanks, man.
 
Hey SEAN, well I have to first decide on the rack I want. I am considering taking a welding class at the Community College next to me so that I can fab it up myself. I think stylistically I like Cody's rack the best. I plan on running aux. lights with a power pass thru the roof. I have another really cool idea for the RTT once I I know which rack style and RTT I decide. The solar set up has already been spec'd out and I have been working with the company going back and forth on design ideas and making sure I can get it to do what I want with the dual battery system I finally go with.

Which unfortunately I have yet to decide. I WOULD say that I am closer to running the HellRoaring over the NL set up. I've been reading the book Managing 12volt:
Amazon.com: Managing 12 Volts: How to Upgrade, Operate, and Troubleshoot 12 Volt Electrical Systems: Harold Barre: Books

This book is an absolute must for those of us that want to do 12v dc stuff to our vehicles but have no idea how to go about it. This book explains everything. Thank you CDan for turning me onto it during one of our conversations.

I just took out my passenger seat and complete center console (and then immediately put it back) so that I knew what I was working with. I need to get the aux. fuse panel set up along with the inverter and new radio. I am going to need a few weekends for sure to get everything going.

Right now the dual battery set up and the jumper quick disconnect with cab operation has been dominating my time. That and the starter switch that PHOTOMAN set up for me and the kill switch(es) from 12VoltGuy.com combined.

I am leaving end of August for a 2 week trip to Yellowstone from SoCal. Trying to get everything done by then. Its tough when you have no room to work and no tools. I have spindle work in my future as well.
 
Besides what I did for my own pleasure , for the last 20 years I have been installing multiple batteries in my bussiness besides other goodies and I understand your concerns.

Because of the lack of high powered alternators when I began, my first mods included a dual alt on the FJ40 to the FJ60 era and a some on the early days of the 80 series.

1) On mine I had 3 deep cycle batteries on the engine bay, 2 full sizes upfront and one smaller Optima between the air filter and the engine firewall but all will be replaced with Odissey's later this year.

2) I had already the Warn jump kit but with a socket in the front AND a socket in the rear, both hooked to the same solenoid control. The rear power socket is great to connect a portable winch on a hitch support plate. My removable is a 8000i lb Warn

3) I understand your desire to control the batteries from the dash because you wan't something fool proof (specially thinking in the wife) and I am sure many people will flame me but I am old school and time have proved me I am in the right path because for me there is nothing better that using a combination of Surepower classic oversized isolators to take care of the 3 battery charging work and mechanical marine switchs to select which battery will turn on the OEM circuit.

4) Winch is directly hooked (no switch between it and the battery) to one front battery named as aux 1

5) A big marine dual battery switch hooked to both front batteries allows the missus to select which battery will turn on the cruiser in case the main is depleted, because any person can open the hood and rotate the switch from 1 to BOTH to 2 position.

6) The third battery named aux 2 has also a simple on/off marine switch to hook it in parallel with the aux 1 so we can hook the three batteries in parallel with just mechanic switches no matter if one of them is depleted or I need the maximum available current to power my front winch (of course I don't wait until the aux 1 battery is depleted since a stalled winch can draw up to 500 amps, so I distribute the load between the two additional batteries through switchs capable of handling peaks of more than 500 amps and no more than 250 amps will flow through them (load is divided) at a time because there is still one directly hooked to the winch.

7) Try to understand I handle separately the charging job from my loading needs and no matter in which position I let the marine switchs, the alternator will charge the 3 batteries always so I don't use anything fancy or sofisticated to give me problems.

8) I replaced the OEM alternator with a big case Denso by Powermaster which is capable of provide continuosly more than 180 amps if I keep the rev up.

9) I used a 240 Amp dual battery isolator with the A and E post and a 240 Amp dual battery isolator without the E post (since only one is required to excite the alternator), both of them from Surepower having their A post in parallel so I can charge a fourth battery just in case.

10) I replaced all the wires from each battery negative post to the body to the engine with # 2 gauge with the same gauge from the alt out to the isolators. Each isolator out is protected with a 100 amp breaker between it and it's hooked battery and I never have seen them tripped.


This setup has been working fine for many years and only once I had to overhaul it and had to replace the alternator bearings and the rectifier plate because of the tremendous abuse I had on it, rotor and stator windings were just like new without any signs of overheating so I guess the rectifier plate is the one that can't handle the excesive heat from the engine compartment and the load it has to carry. that's why I don't trust any small case alternator.

I travel allways with a 60 qtrs Engel freezer/refrigerator but sometimes I carry also a 45 qts doing the freezer duty. My setup includes a 1000 watt inverter but try to use it as less as possible.

Were we camp we stay about a week so I carefully monitor all the batteries, once the aux 2 and aux 1 batteries reach 10.5 volt I turn on the cruiser and recharge them. Since the refrigerator is my main concern I take all the precautions to keep it closed as much as possible and slide it out on it's roller support bracket system so fresh air circulate around it. On some customer refrigerators we added low current computer type fans which cycle with the compressor, blowing air to the condenser coil and seems to help them as to reduce the time the compressor works and the battery charge last more.

I hope this year I will do my project to add a sliding solar panel which will be fitted under the roof tent, because It's a crime to waste a 215 hp engine to charge a couple of batteries, specially were I go to camp because our goverment limit how much fuel you can purchase on the two closer pump stations (you can only purchase what fit on your OEM gas tank) been afraid we will cross the border and sell it for 10 times our cost (yeah because I had nothing better to do than driving 4 hours each way from my beautyfull camping site with gorgeous waterfalls in front of me to a ugly small city just to get some bucks).
 
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ROBMIR, excellent points!!! I will be blatantly stealing some of your ideas. I had not considered adding a quick disconnec to the back, but maybe its something that should be considered.
 
NLXTACY said:
ROBMIR, excellent points!!! I will be blatantly stealing some of your ideas. I had not considered adding a quick disconnec to the back, but maybe its something that should be considered.
Click to expand...

The rear socket paid by itself the first week I did it, because we were visiting a small national park with a very limited parking space and when we walked back at closing time we found that a truck was blocking us, the dummy let the lights on so I had to jump him to free my self :bang:

You had to see his face when I just plugged the brand new flashing orange Warn jumping cables. He was afraid I would backup as to move him away with my cruiser since the floor was inclined and I was not in my best mood to push his pickup to clear my path.

By the way minimum gauge for the rear socket should be #2 or #0 just in case. They came with a sealing plug which I found useless, mud get and stay inside when it's plugged making dificult to hook the jumper and you will need to flush it with pressure water to clean it.
 
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I am actually running 1/0 on everything. I am getting the cable from Wrangler to make my life a little easier. Theirs is 1200 count wire with a neoprene casing so with runs as short as 6" I can twist the cable a full 180º.

I totally did not think about the possibility of someone parked right behind me getting stuck. This would have made my 16ft cables pretty useless unless we went from jumper cable to jumper cable :hillbilly:
 
I forgot to tell you that since our cruiser is not a DD, sometimes it stays up to a month without turning it on, so I bought a sealed small marine 2 amp trickle charger which is permanently bolted in the engine bay, hooked to the main battery and it's 120 v a/c plug is neatly fastened behind the front bumper with a little slack and I keep it plugged to a extension in my condo parking space.

So I have always the main battery fully charged (which is the one who has to power the cruiser OEM circuits and the alarm, and as you are aware they draw a small amount current, enough to give you problems).

And yes, a couple of weeks ago my wife for the first time in many years, (she avoid it's use as much as possible once I did the lifting job and replaced the tires) forgot to unplug the charger and drived the cruiser from our home to our office ( about 3 miles) with the male plug rubbing the street !!!!

I still don't know how she missed a short circuit when the extension were forcely unplugged and she didn't crushed the extension female socket with the rear tires when drived out of our parking space.

After that little surprise, I now keep a loop of the bright yellow extension resting in the driver's side board which she HAD to see before opening the drivers door, ( well I hope !!!!!)
 
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HAHAHAHA, thats pretty funny!

I considered mounting a trickle charger permanently but decided that since its my DD its not going to ever be used. PLUS when we DO go camping for days at a time, I plan on letting the solar panel make up the difference. As it is right now, All I need to do is start the truck and let it run for a little while if the batteries are down.
 
NLXTACY said:
HAHAHAHA, thats pretty funny!

I considered mounting a trickle charger permanently but decided that since its my DD its not going to ever be used. PLUS when we DO go camping for days at a time, I plan on letting the solar panel make up the difference. As it is right now, All I need to do is start the truck and let it run for a little while if the batteries are down.
Click to expand...

Lately our traffic is so heavy that using the cruiser as DD is a double nightmare, so we sold our bigger cars and got a couple of Yaris as DD.

Early in the morning it takes me less than 10 minutes (it could be a lot less if not by the trafic lights) to arrive to my shop but returning to my home at noon or in the afternoon could take 45 minutes and more than 1 hour if it's raining.

If I walk, I could make it in 20 minutes but the heat and buses, trucks and vehicles exhaust gasses doesn't make it very funny and the wife don't let me buy again a motorcycle as I had years ago. All my neighbors in the street got theirs :crybaby:.

Well now that I closed my own bussiness, rented the facilities (my new tenants will only sell and install extreme off road accesories) I hope I will have plenty of time to play with my 80 cruiser and fully restaurate my 1974 FJ40 which was resting for the last 4 years in a corner of my shop taking dust, awaiting a complete rebuild of it's V8, new clutch and pressure plate and a replacement of some rusted body panels.
 
ROBMIR,

Really intrigued by your info and system. But, I am kind of visual, have a hard time translating words to reality...any chance you could post up a pic or (even better) a diagram of how your system is set up? I can read electrical diagrams just fine (better actually than verbal descriptions...)

Thanks for posting up!
 
lovetoski said:
ROBMIR,

Really intrigued by your info and system. But, I am kind of visual, have a hard time translating words to reality...any chance you could post up a pic or (even better) a diagram of how your system is set up? I can read electrical diagrams just fine (better actually than verbal descriptions...)

Thanks for posting up!
Click to expand...

Pictures will not do justice, so let me see if I can do the diagram, scan it and later post it.

Will try to do it in the next couple of days and I get you, because been english my second language it takes me a while to explain what's going on my mind.:bang:
 
robmir said:
because been english my second language it takes me a while to explain what's going on my mind.:bang:
Click to expand...

Your english is fine. It's my comprehension that's the problem! Looking forward to the diagram!
 
Trunk Monkey said:
And 3 batteries is stupid unless you're traveling around the world. Even then it's a bit much.
Click to expand...

Oh Boy, seems you live in a perfect world were your cruiser has manual transmission, your roof is covered with solar panels, you carry a portable generator and your communication equipment includes a satellital phone just to order pizza. :D

Don't worry because once I purchase the very expensive solar panel, I set my eyes, which would be capable to provide enough juice during the day to charge my batteries as to power my 60 qts refrigerators for several days without the need to turn on my engine to charge them, then I will be as smart as you and remove one.
 
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Here, where dual batts for travelling are mandatory, I use the Red Arc 200 A unit, so it can be used to winch through, is totaly automatic, and has the option of wiring in a "jump switch" to link the batteries manually, if you wish.

Its as simple as it gets, and never had a failure with one of these units.

Smart Start dual battery isolators by Redarc Electronics

I have run 4 batteries [3 as aux and one main] and current 80 has a 235 A/hr aux battery and Exide extreme main battery, and is auto, so desert work with 60lt Engel, and running the elec blanket, and the cpap machine from the invertor requires some battery power.
 
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