Has Rotella Diesel Oil Fallen from Grace?

[lelandEOD]

Recently, I've been reading a lot on oil selection on the interwebs. Specifically, I was curious about the need for zinc in flat tappet engines and one thing led to another. I'm a diesel newbie so I'm not carrying any bias or brand loyalty... but that also means I'm kind of clueless.

I haven't even run my engine yet, but I definitely want to do everything possible to ensure I treat it right. I've already picked up 3 gallons of DRB Break-in oil for the initial break-in period, and I thought I had it in my mind that I'd eventually use Rotella Heavy-Duty T5 or T6 for the regular oil change intervals... ... ...
That was, until today. Now I'm not so sure.

I was poking around a couple internet discussion forums and started hearing that Shell recently(ish) changed their oil formulations and that the new Rotella oils have much less zinc than before. What level of zinc is considered to be ideal for our oil burners? I've seen 1100ppm thrown around on other forums but there is obviously a lot of consideration to be had on this topic. I was curious what others here think about oil selection, zinc content, etc. Do you feel Rotella is still the go-to oil of choice or are there are better choices to be had?

 

[lelandEOD]

I found this on a topic on AR15.com (of all places). The OP seems to be in the industry and gives me the impression that he knows a thing or two about lubricants. Man, is it ever hard to weed through the marketing, hyperbole, sales pitches, and such! The topic below was not specifically referencing diesel oils, but there's some good food for thought:


"Flat tappets, zinc, you and oil. The myths, the facts and the legends.

Yes. Original flat tappet designed engines need more anti-wear protection. When they were originally designed, more zinc was good to protect the metal from premature wear. It was due to two reasons, 1. Metallurgy was not as good as today. 2. Zinc was the fix all in the engine.

If your engine is original, or using original like metallurgy parts, you probably need more zinc in your engine oil. If you’re using modern metallurgy parts, it’s not super important, I will get into why.

If you don’t know what’s in your engine, and you do not have emission systems on your engine, go ahead and use higher zinc oils.

Things to ponder about:

1. Modern anti-wear agents. Kendall and Castrol both use a titanium anti wear agent. It acts much like a moly does. However there is some chemistry and wear tests that show it mixes with zinc rather well and actually amplifies the anti wear properties of both.

- this is important for my second part of modern metallurgy. If it’s a modern built flat tappet part, these additives will help protect it.

2. High moly count oils, found by manufacturers like idemitsu, total and a few racing oils, use moly to help counter act the wear. Much akin to the zinc and titanium, these will help slow the wear down on a flat tappet engine. Or so limited testing data has shown.

Why isn’t there a lot of testing data on these additives and flat tappers?

No one cares in the industry on a large scale level cares anymore. Flat tappet engines are a niche market. Not worth the R&D money.

Moving on.

Why engine oils have changed:

We are at ILSAC GF5 API SN+ formulations currently in terms of modern engine oils. We are looking at GF6 SP formulations here in the next few months. Probably as soon as November with the first licensed products being May 1st 2020.

Modern engine oils are formulated extend the life of modern engines. This includes emission systems. Zinc, or ZDDP, in actually poisons emission catalyst equipment over time. The higher zinc content, the faster it will kill the emissions equipment. Yeah yeah, **** the epa. But we have to deal with it.

Modern engine oils top out under 800ppm if zinc. The rule of thumb for flat tappet engines is around 1100ppm. But this is a completely unscientific, word of mouth guesstimate by backyard scientists. What is the proper amount? Who the **** knows. I don’t.

Why are Diesel engine oils recommended so much? Because Diesel engine oils typically are around 1100-1200 ppm of ZDDP still, outside of Chevron delo lines and other SN formulated “universal oils.”

- Universal oils are a crock of s***. They do nothing well and everything bad.

Why Rotella T2/T4 sucks:

Because it does. I told you it does. I’ve told you all for years it does.

But the fact is, it sucks in its primary application. It’s designed, sold and marketed as a heavy duty Diesel engine oil. Shell spent about $60 million in marketing for Rotella last year. You, the consumer, who buys this bull****, sniffs it up like cracky mccrackhead doing a rock.

So you buy a literally, under $4 a gallon oil, for $12-13 a gallon. Because you’re paying for your crack. The booth babes, the gloves, the $10 million dollar solar powered next generation bull**** truck, the nascar sponsorship, the PBR sponsorship, and the rest of the bull**** they do.

Rotella T2/T4 uses the absolute bottom barrel infinium add pack, thinned out the most, to meet spec 9 out of 10 times. When questioned about it, they had me escorted out of the last trade show I was at with them. True story.

In its primary application, it shears. Shearing is the oil additives breaking down. It actually shears prematurely. When I was a shell marketer, I was sued for it. Also a true story. Don’t use it in big generators. Pro tip. But that’s an entirely different thread.

If you want to run it in your classic car, put 2000-5000 miles on it and change it, whatever. Not going to split hairs. It’s you’re money, buy your crack.

T5 and T6 are different stories. T5 isn’t great by any means and T6 is “okay” for what it is. If you have a hardon for giving the Dutch money, go for it. Otherwise, look to other brands. If you’re using it in your bike, use redline.

High zinc oils, what to know and what to consider.

Most high zinc oils are not governed by the API anymore. Nor are they governed by Anyone really. So “buyer beware” essentially. There is a lot of no name bull**** out there. A lot of marketing hype out there. And a lot of scams out there.

I’m not going to list every brand and every formula and every in and out right now because I’m tired.

Ones I know:

Valvoline VR1 - good to go. Probably the most commonly found, non high performance, synthetic blend classic car oil. Specifically developed to be price competitive and still have high zinc. Valvoline is also too big of a brand to **** s*** up.

Brad Penn / Driven / other ARG made/designed products. ARG makes a solid product. Actually I had a meeting with them today about industrial products. They sold off the Brad penn line to DA lubricants. But I do believe they still use the original formulations. Etc. it’s not a bad classic car oil.

Kendall Competition 20w50. 1200ish ppm of zinc. Would be about the same as the VR1 20w50. Also has the titanium additive for further anti wear. I’m a big Kendall fan, so this would be my go to for a conventional group 2 product, with high zinc. But I also have easy access to it.

Performance oils:

Redline. Need I say more?

Amsoil. You like pyramid scheme sales tactics? They got an oil for you. But really they make some solid products.

Other racing / performance oils: there’s a lot. Watch out for scamy marketing and cheap formulations for the price. Royal purple. Joe Gibbs racing. Etc. can be good. Can be taken your money.

Diesel engine oils:

Kendall Super D-XA / Guardol ECT. 10w30 or 15w40. Get your zinc. Get the titanium. Win at life.

Rotella T5/T6 It’s a rip off, but you can probably get it before Walmart kicks you out for open carrying.

Other products:

Mobil, Castrol, tons of others make high zinc oils. I’d recommend looking at the product data sheets before hand. You want .1100 zinc or higher really, if you’re trying to get your fix.

There are literally tons of products that can fit the bill. I’m brand centric when it comes to Diesel engine oils. Not so much gas engines or niche markets. I have a little bit of everything in my garage. I honestly sell everything brand wise. Kendall / P66 has the skills to pay the bills for me currently. I really like their products from Super D XA in my fleet, to Kendall Dexos 1 Gen 2 in my company truck, to redline in my personal vehicle.

They make a great slate of products. But so do others. Thus, buy what’s easy and affordable for it. I just try to present the picture and help consumers make good decisions.

 

[Dilspec]

Hey man - Hope all is well.

I'm not a chemist or chemical engineer by any means so take my words with a grain of salt.

I also heard similar news about Shell removing some of the zinc properties from their Rotella line. However, I heard this was actually done a few years ago (source diesel mechanic). I am a little concerned as well but my oil analysis confirms it's still slightly above average for the 1HDT.

Schaeffer oil is supposed to have "more" zinc, maybe something to look into.

From left to right on the oil anaylsis.

15W-40 T4
5W40 T6 (Winter)
15W40-T4

I've also used Delo in the past but they are SN rated now, which I believe is rated safe for gasoline engines w/catalytic converters. I've used Motul in my race car, but I never did a oil analysis to confirm properties/wear.

Hope this helps a little.

 

[Jroc561]

Ive been wanting to try Schaeffer oil, they always had a great rep but now thanks to Amazon its easier to get a hold of.

 

[Whiskerz]

They guy who post about oil over on AR.15.com is the owner (foxtrot08) of an oil distributorship in the Midwest and is very knowledgeable about the good and bad of oil. He is a wealth of handiness

 

[gerg]

Buy a good quality oil and your own zink and moly.

 

[Dilspec]

Also to add he's claiming T4 and T5 as junk or in-superior compared to other oils. I don't know, my oil analysis says it seems fine. I'm not a brotella fan by any means but he seems to hate Shell.

 

[1HaytchZed]

I use LiquiMoly in my 1HZ and 1HDT motors. Not sure if they have zinc ZDDP already added, but I've never heard anything less than stellar about this brand.

 

[AirheadNut]

I generally use this in older diesels: STP® Oil Treatment | Engine Lubricant Protects Against Wear
I also put a bottle of it in my last FJ62 at 295k and was amazed how much quieter the engine was afterwards.

 

[mudandrock]

I generally use this in older diesels: STP® Oil Treatment | Engine Lubricant Protects Against Wear
I also put a bottle of it in my last FJ62 at 295k and was amazed how much quieter the engine was afterwards.

Yes, today’s oil has hardly any or no zinc. Add zink, do it! I’ve seen considerable premature wear on camshafts and lifter shims in these Diesel engines, especially ones that have been stateside for awhile. The stuff @AirheadNut says to use is under $3 and works.

 

[SHREDwagon]

I've already picked up 3 gallons of DRB Break-in oil for the initial break-in period, and I thought I had it in my mind that I'd eventually use Rotella Heavy-Duty T5 or T6 for the regular oil change intervals... ... ...
That was, until today. Now I'm not so sure.

Hopefully by "break-in" period, you mean 10k mi before switching to a syn!

I've been using Delvac and Amsoil with OEM filters for 9 years (3500 hrs) on an HDT. Teardown this year showed minimal wear, per the machinist FWIW. Four oil analysis over that period came back acceptable. I prefer to change every 5k regardless.

One would think filter type and bypass filtration are just as important for an offroad vehicle. I think you will get more value posting on Bobisthoilguy.

Here she is, after the last teardown, ready for more abuse:

 

[lelandEOD]

Hopefully by "break-in" period, you mean 10k mi before switching to a syn!

I've been using Delvac and Amsoil with OEM filters for 9 years (3500 hrs) on an HDT. Teardown this year showed minimal wear, per the machinist FWIW. Four oil analysis over that period came back acceptable. I prefer to change every 5k regardless.

One would think filter type and bypass filtration are just as important for an offroad vehicle. I think you will get more value posting on Bobisthoilguy.

Here she is, after the last teardown, ready for more abuse:

Not sure I'm following you. Are you recommending I use a non-synthetic for 10K then switch to a full synthetic?

I was planning to run the DRB break-in oil for the first 1500 miles, then switch the oil and filter to something like Kendall D-XA.

I'm also a believer in 5k oil change intervals.

 

[SHREDwagon]

Yes, Non-synthetic for 10k per the old-school machinist. I usually run synthetic during Winter with a webasto (no cold starts). Depends how many hours I'm logging - synthetic adds up without extending the change intervals to 10k like the manufacturers claim. Depends on if driven off-road much. With an additional bypass filter I might feel comfortable extending with the turbo.

On the NA HZ, I use whatever's cheap - often!

Edit: I learned from work and thought it worth mentioning that it's best to avoid getting used diesel motor oil on your skin - safe wrenching.

 

[Varty Yo]

I typically run T6 full syn in my duramax to 12k.

 

[zakthor]

I think 'oil threads' will be studied by human behaviorists in the future.

Combines big business, chemical company conspiracy, gubnint regulation, all trying to ruin the engine of the little man. And finally corporate marketing and extremely noisy data that is ripe to be explained by goofy theories and magic.

Folks... Water rolls downhill, keep your heads on straight.

 

[OGBeno]

^^^ Truth.

Just use an oil and change it. Anything more than that is wasting precious time in ones life.

 

[JuanJ]

^^^ Truth.

Just use an oil and change it. Anything more than that is wasting precious time in ones life.

Hello,

x2.

Few products are more prone to conspiracy theories than engine oil.

Just make sure the oil type fits the manufacturer's requirements.

If still concerned, add a viscosity modifier and move on.





Juan