Harsh Upshifts (esp. in low gears) / P2716 code (shift solenoid 'D') / Recent OEM Pan Replacement... Thoughts? (6 Viewers)

[Matt Hunoval]

I’m sure Amsoil is fine stuff. I think it’s a good idea to revert back to the condition where it was working originally.
I have seen the problems when other transmission fluid brands were used, and I don’t know if they were/weren’t WS compatible, but there were shifting issues. Those shifting issues were resolved when the fluid was replaced for Toyota WS.

apologies, we may have crossed wires / cross talk. I've done two (2) drop & drains. 1st was 5,500 miles ago and I kept the original pan, AND I used the Amsoil ATF 'Signature Series' (the one labeled ATL on the MSDS sheet, which is specced to be WS compatible) to replace the OEM WS spec fluid in the 1st drop & drain-- and for a drop and drain, that's about 50% of the fluid. And for 5,000 miles it ran like a top with the (ballpark) 50% Amsoil & 50% old OEM WS fluid (which was black and disgusting btw). Actually ran smoother than before the 1st drop & drain & I saw a marginal uptick in MPGs. Upshifts, downshifts, all gears, all speeds. I'm sure just replacing the old ATF with any WS-compatible fluid would have done the same thing after 136k miles! The harsh / jerky upshift issue arose ONLY upon the 2nd drop & drain... 5k miles after the 1st, approx. 500 miles ago. And it was abrupt & sudden and coincided precisely with the 2nd drop & drain and install of the B&M pan. It didn't subtly & slowly start happening, gradually increasing from the 1st drop & drain to the 2nd. 100% of it started happening within a few miles of the 2nd drop and drain. Thus my tentative conclusion / working hypothesis is that the transmission overall isn't shot but, rather, in the process of the 2nd drop and drain and install of the new B&M pan I either a) accidentally knocked some wiring to the solenoids loose or b) with how dirty & old the OEM fluid was, some small particulate matter of caked-on transmission gunk got knocked loose & gummed up the SLT solenoid so that the valve connector is stuck open (thus the p2716 code). As Tom posted, only way I'm gonna find out is to drop the damn thing and troubleshoot the valve body. Will likely go ahead and order a SLT solenoid and new transmission filter for PM reasons & to minimize potential downtime.

 

[Matt Hunoval]

I’m a simple man from the country. Don’t take this the wrong way, but you may have some confirmation bias. I’m still running amsoil atf in mine as I said above. Zero issues.

To confirm: there were no issues before your fluid and pan change, correct? If not, disregard my posts.

If so, something is now not as it was via fluid level or as you said connection, etc being reinstalled incorrectly. Res ipsa loquitur

just noticed the res ipsa loquitur. Nice flare. Need to figure out a way to work in a good infra or supra, maybe try to reference 'International Shoe' while I'm at it. 10 points for you, sir!

 

[gaijin]

The only thing about the pan that truly matters is that the standpipe is in the correct position so that you can adjust the transmission fluid to the proper level. Needs to be done while the transmission is at the correct temperature and the engine is running in park or neutral.

yes; I make sure to do that every time I do a drop & drain 100%.

My simple mind keeps coming back to the possibility that after installation of the deeper pan, you did not refill to the proper fluid level - not enough transmission fluid in the transmission.

Just to check:

- What temperature did you bring the transmission up to?
- Did you lock the transmission thermostat open?

May be nothing, but never hurts to double check, right?

HTH

Edit to add:

I would refer you to the following post for details on transmission fluid replacement procedures according to Toyota:

AT Fluid Replacement Procedure

 

[TomEf]

Open/short in the circuit.

While you have the pan off:
-SLT Solenoid should have 5 to 5.6 ohms between the terminals.
If that tests good then you’ll need to move to testing the connector and harness for an open/short.

It's worth pointing out that solenoids can test good on the bench at room temperature, but have issues at operating temps. I've never actually been able to diagnose a known bad solenoid on the bench at room temp or at operating temp, so your mileage may vary on that.

- Did you lock the transmission thermostat open?

I'm glad you mentioned this, because it's an easy step to miss.





For what it's worth, just last week I did a (basically) complete fluid exchange with the Amsoil ATF. Drained and refilled the pan (didn't drop it), pinned the thermostat, and collected fluid at the exit of the second trans cooler/refilled into the pan. Verified fluid level at the correct temperature per FSM, buttoned it up, and have put almost 1000mi on it since then. No weird shifts, no harshness, no surges when putting it into gear, etc. I can't remember exactly which Amsoil ATF I had, but it did specify it meets/exceeds the Toyota WS requirements.

 

[GrouchyTech]

Here are the testing procedures for your P2716.

 

[Matt Hunoval]

Here are the testing procedures for your P2716.

awesome-- super helpful! Many thanks, sir!

 

[Matt Hunoval]

It's worth pointing out that solenoids can test good on the bench at room temperature, but have issues at operating temps. I've never actually been able to diagnose a known bad solenoid on the bench at room temp or at operating temp, so your mileage may vary on that.




I'm glad you mentioned this, because it's an easy step to miss.





For what it's worth, just last week I did a (basically) complete fluid exchange with the Amsoil ATF. Drained and refilled the pan (didn't drop it), pinned the thermostat, and collected fluid at the exit of the second trans cooler/refilled into the pan. Verified fluid level at the correct temperature per FSM, buttoned it up, and have put almost 1000mi on it since then. No weird shifts, no harshness, no surges when putting it into gear, etc. I can't remember exactly which Amsoil ATF I had, but it did specify it meets/exceeds the Toyota WS requirements.

Good reminder-- will (double)check re: thermostat. Even tho I have a checklist almost like a pilot pre-take off & have replaced ATF fluid 20+ times with other vehicles... it is easy to get to autopilot mode & skip a step.

 

[Matt Hunoval]

My simple mind keeps coming back to the possibility that after installation of the deeper pan, you did not refill to the proper fluid level - not enough transmission fluid in the transmission.

Just to check:

- What temperature did you bring the transmission up to?
- Did you lock the transmission thermostat open?

May be nothing, but never hurts to double check, right?

HTH

Edit to add:

I would refer you to the following post for details on transmission fluid replacement procedures according to Toyota:

AT Fluid Replacement Procedure

temps were 115 degrees, within the specified range. Even though I have an airplane-pilot-like checklist I run thru on maintenance items, didn't think re: the possibility of forgetting to unlock the thermostat. Sometimes one goes on autopilot... so will go check that out!

 

[GrouchyTech]

temps were 115 degrees, within the specified range. Even though I have an airplane-pilot-like checklist I run thru on maintenance items, didn't think re: the possibility of forgetting to unlock the thermostat. Sometimes one goes on autopilot... so will go check that out!

Before you drop the pan to do anything, try just adding another quart and see if the shifting improves. You won't need to drive it far, around the block. If things improve then we need to check the standpipe on that aftermarket pan.

 

[TeCKis300]

Honest Q: here's the technical data sheet on the ATF I used (it is the internal code 'ATL', so look at the 2nd column on page 2): https://www.amsoilcontent.com/ams/lit/databulletins/g3110.pdf

Here's the Toyota WS technical data sheet: https://cdn.website-editor.net/6622da50fd3744b3b1560a41005a6921/files/uploaded/00289-ATFWS.pdf

Which specs, precisely, would indicate the WS is superior? Kinematic Viscosity (stability of fluid over time at two benchmark temps)? Nope. Flash point? Nope. To be fair, however, if you're approaching flash point temps you've got much bigger problems! On every ASTM standard measured, the WS is inferior. No, not by much. At the margins, yes, AMSOIL is a superior ATF across the board.

Don't think you can go wrong either way, but the OEM-is-always-better-no-matter-what isn't really an argument. Tires? The 20-weight oil recommended for U.S. 200 series? Both are OEM.

In taking the OEM-is-always-better line, I'd love to hear a good case for 20-weight oil in the 200 series.

Sorry to hear of the transmission problems. It's not clear there is a specific resolution at this point and it's somewhat of a crapshoot when transmission are throwing codes for solenoids and valve bodies. I'm sure there's a specialty shop out there that may be able to better diagnose and fix, but that component level detail is hard to come by.

Playing devils advocate, this wouldn't be the first time that "compatibility" falls short. How many times have we seen hardware, plug&pray, aftermarket marketing promises fall short. Something meeting specs or standards is only the first step to integration. The reason OEMs spec'd components and fluids always have the advantage is because of extensive testing towards verification and validation. That V&V test, and even V&V of servicing process and methods is critical to the long term success of systems. With anything else, the end user often becomes the tester, the success of which might depend on a body of knowledge from those trying ahead of you. I say this as I've been there too taking hard lessons learned, professionally and in my own hobbies.

That said, I'm not necessarily pointing fingers at the fluid or pan, but they can still be culprits. It could just as much be over-servicing, which has risks itself to creating assembly issues, foreign debris, excess detergent dislodging what would just be normal wear debris, etc.

As an aside, @GrouchyTech is on point with all the great experience and info.

 

[gaijin]

Before you drop the pan to do anything, try just adding another quart and see if the shifting improves. You won't need to drive it far, around the block. If things improve then we need to check the standpipe on that aftermarket pan.

I like that idea!