FZJ80 won't start - help! (1 Viewer)

[sbman]

The immoblizer computer is mounted somewhere under the dash and is part number 89780-60020 although that's a part number for the computer/key pair I don't know if that number is printed on the computer or not. There is a 'coil amplifier' that will be mounted very close to the ignition cylinder that is plugged into the coil on the ignition switch. It has two wires and is part number 89783-60010.

It looks like this in the parts diagram:

The wire on the right plugs into the ignition lock cylinder.

 

[Paul D63]

OK thanks for the clarification. But if it was the immobiliser causing my woes, would I get this random behaviour of it starting for a couple of seconds sometimes, but nothing at all at others? Wouldn't I just get either one or the other as wouldn't the immobiliser either not let the engine fire at all, or let it fire for those couple of seconds every time before cutting the power when it decided it hadn't received the correct signal from the key? I'm just thinking aloud here, as I have no idea how the immobiliser circuits operate. You say it cuts the EFI circuit? If that's the case, then maybe it does fit my symptoms, as it seems to be somehow fuel-related.

 

[sbman]

I think the symptoms fit for the immobilizer to be causing the issue, yes. It is basically software based and the 'signals' are some kind of data communications between the immobilizer computer and the EFI computer. It doesn't just 'cut the circuit', it tells the software to shutdown and the EFI computer does that in software. It can't be bypassed as far as I know.

 

[Paul D63]

OK, picture of my only key & fob below, for clarification. Apologies for the misunderstanding - I'd always assumed that the remote control fob for the alarm & locking was also what controlled the immobiliser. If that's not the case, and there is indeed a separate transponder in the key (can you tell from the style of the key?), then maybe this is the problem? But I still don't really understand why it would allow it to start occasionally, but mostly not?

Also, if it has indeed been caused by it sitting with a dead battery for some time (which it was), then isn't the fault going to be in the equipment attached to the vehicle, rather than the key? Will simply programming another key to the same transponder settings as my existing key not just produce another key that also doesn't work? Excuse my ignorance if that's not the case! Or does someone have to pair the new (or existing) key to the vehicle as you said? Is it the case that the car has simply 'forgotten' the transponder settings and now doesn't recognise the key any more?

 

[sbman]

Unfortunately I don't know anything further about the system. It wasn't sold in North America and I have no documentation on it. The key head looks big enough to have a transponder in it, yes. Interestingly you have the inside cut keys like was used in Lexus vehicles here but the north america LX450 didn't have the immobilizer system. You will have to find some documentation on the system or get someone involved that knows how to reset/reprogram it. I do know that there is only one 'master key' and that it looks the same as the other keys. I gave the part numbers above. Hopefully the one you have is the master. It doesn't surprise me at all that it will start briefly and then shut down. These systems were very technically advanced for the era and probably not the fastest little computers. The code 99 means 'key not recognized' and the immobilizer should be sending a shutdown signal.

 

[sbman]

You might try a locksmith that deals with automotive keys. From the scant information I've found about the system, it looks like programming a key requires a device to be plugged into the vehicle and that locksmiths typically have them.

 

[Paul D63]

Hey, you've already helped me out more than I could have hoped for, so you have my thanks for that.

So I guess the fact that it will occasionally start is simply down to the time it takes for the computer to decide it doesn't like the key? Mostly it's making that decision quick enough to not fire at all, but maybe sometimes it's taking a little longer to decline the key, and that's when it will run for a couple of seconds? Is that feasible?

Anyway, I do know a guy with an independent company who specialises in reprogramming things like this - he got a friend of mine going when he lost his keys to a fairly modern Citroen, and he was the only guy out of several we contacted who could do it on-site, so worth giving him a call to run it by him I think.

Will report back on his comments or findings.

Thanks all for the input so far - let's see where this goes.

 

[sbman]

Yes that's what I believe is going on. I think the EFI computer assumes all is well until it gets the shutdown signal from the immobilizer computer to shutdown and I think that computer is fairly slow to do so. Not a bad thing from a design perspective, if a thief twists the lock cylinder with a large screwdriver and it runs briefly, then it repeats that or doesn't fire at all subsequently, would certainly stop the causal, non professional thief who didn't know about the system.

I had a newer GX470 that had an in key transponder immobilizer system but it was a much newer design that had a green key icon on the dash when it recognized the key, and I think the key icon flashed if it didn't recognize the key.

 

[BILT4ME]

Calling @Dave 2000 to the party for info about the immobilizer......

 

[Paul D63]

Bilt4me - great minds think alike! Reading through other threads on here about similar issues, it seemed to me that he may be the one who can shed more light on this, and I've already messaged him, so hopefully, with a nudge from yourself as well, he'll be along in due course to give his thoughts.

sbman has already proved to be a font of useful info, and already I know stuff I didn't know a few days ago, so hopefully, between us, we're heading towards a solution.

It occurred to me, after some of sbman's comments, to try something I hadn't tried before, and maybe the results do indeed point towards this being the immobiliser causing my issue. See what you guys think: I disconnected the battery and left it for long enough for everything to be cleared. Now my thinking was that, if it is the immobiliser, and this is essentially a computer - and a pretty old one at that - then, like other computers, it may need some time to 'boot up' after power is first applied. So, with the help of an assistant who was ready with the key at the ignition barrel, I connected the battery and immediately had my assistant insert the key and go straight to cranking. My theory was that, just maybe it would run for a bit longer under these circumstances, as the computers would be busy getting their acts together as they had only just been powered up. And guess what? It ran for about five seconds, which is a couple of seconds longer than it's ran for since this problem appeared. To be sure this wasn't a fluke, I went through the same procedure three times in total, and every time, it fired immediately and ran for around five seconds each time.

Now bearing in mind that previously, attempts to start it, even the first attempt of the day (but when the battery was already connected) have often resulted in it not firing at all, and when it would randomly start, it was never for more than about three seconds. So, does this support the immobiliser theory? I can't think of any other reason why it would run for a little longer than normal if it's started the instant the battery is connected, unless there is some truth in my aforementioned theory.

Discuss...

 

[sbman]

Does your gauge cluster have any kind of a 'security' light in it?

This certainly seems to support the theory I had. The key for the immobilizer is listed as a '4C' encrypted transponder chip. The reset procedure for 'all keys lost' as far as Toyota is concerned seems to be replace the ECU. A new ECU starts up in a key programming mode that allows the keys to be 'enrolled' in the system. Various third parties have the ability to reprogram the chip inside the ECU to 'reset' it, but this involves removing the ECU, desoldering a chip and having special tools and software to reprogram it. I don't know for sure if this applies to older models, everything I can find starts at 1998. There are also third party tools available for most of this but nothing seems to apply to pre-1998. Of course all my info is U.S. based.

The process I find for 'program a key' is as follows, but no indication is given what years/models that this process works with, and it assumes you have a master key that is already programmed, as well as a security light that confirms the actions. This seems like the newer system found in 1998+ models. If you don't have a security light, I'm pretty sure this won't work.

1. Purchase a blank Toyota transponder key. You can do this from the dealership, a locksmith, or an online source such as eBay. Once you have the key, take the blank key and the master key to a locksmith that he or she can duplicate the key. This will be much cheaper than the dealership​
2. Now that you have the newly cut key and the master key, you can program the Toyota transponder key. Sit in the driver's side of the Toyota vehicle. Press and release the brake and gas pedal simultaneously.​
3. Insert the master transponder key. Do not turn it. Push and release the gas pedal 5 times within at least 15 seconds of inserting the master key.​
4. Press and release the brake pedal 6 times within 20 seconds of completing step 3, then remove the master transponder key.
5. Insert the newly cut transponder key into the ignition, but do not turn. Press the gas pedal once.
6. Wait up to 2 minutes or whenever the security light on the dashboard turns off. Once the light goes off, remove the new transponder key and press the brake pedal once. The new transponder key should now be programmed. Test the key by attempting to start the engine. If the engine does not start, repeat the steps above.

Here is a diagram of the parts related to the immobilizer, perhaps it can be of some use. The box at the bottom is the immobilizer ECU, the wire harness above it is the 'transponder amplifier' and the circular thing next to the landcruiser is the cylinder lock antenna that picks up the code from the key head. I vaguely remember older Toyota immobilizer having control over the ignition key light ring, I'm not 100% sure, but that might be the 'security' light on older models.

 

[Paul D63]

sbman - no security light in my cluster. As you said, I think this came along on the later models - 100 or later perhaps?

I also found a similar procedure as the one you outline, but also found that it appears to be only for later models with the 'key' light in the dash. But even if it was applicable to mine, it still wouldn't help me, because I would still need to be in possession of at least one key that starts the engine, and if this is my problem, then I don't have that.

Today I've been to two local locksmiths who do automotive keys also. I've used both before, but not often enough to really know how good they are! And I've been told conflicting things by each, which isn't helping my confusion! The first guy I've used quite a lot for older normal keys for the types of classic car I typically work on, but not for modern type electronic set-ups. He looked at my key and said there's no transponder in it, which goes against everything I've learned on here. There's another thread on here from (I think) someone from Denmark and he's posted photos of his transponder key, and his key appears identical to mine. And the general consensus seems to be that a UK spec 80 from '96 would have the transponder type immobiliser? However, the guy put my key in three different devices he had, which I assume can read a transponder, and he said he got nothing showing from any device. Which led him to say that the only way there could be a transponder in my key is if it was totally dead. Of course, it that's the case, then that could explain my problem - maybe it is the key, rather than a problem with the vehicle immobiliser itself, as I've been assuming?

But then I went to the second place, and the guy I spoke to there was not their resident car key expert (who was out on another job), but he said he was fairly sure that Toyotas in the UK had transponder key type immobilisers from the early/mid '90s! So I now don't know what to believe. The car key expert from the second place is supposed to call me in due course, so I'll see what he makes of it, and whether he can give a definitive answer as to whether or not my key contains a transponder.

If it doesn't, then I guess I'm back to square one...

 

[sbman]

According to your VIN and the Toyota parts diagram, it has the immobilizer system. You could look for the transponder amplifier in the dash, but that won't probably be very easy. I'm sure there could be something else wrong, but I doubt the ECU is throwing a code 99 for no reason and it seems like getting that sorted out would eliminate it as a possible issue. You could use a mechanic's stethoscope on one of the injectors, from what I've read, the immobilizer stops pulsing the injectors, and you should be able to hear the difference pretty clearly during your five second run after a reset.

 

[Paul D63]

Interesting what you say about the immobilizer cutting the pulses to the injectors. I convinced myself, quite early on in this process (rightly or wrongly) that my problem was related to the injectors not operating. What I couldn't figure was why. But once I had confirmed that I had ignition, and I had fuel under pressure in the rail, then I was convinced it was the injectors not allowing the fuel into the cylinders. Anything else - MAF, IAC, pressure reg, air leak, whatever, and I figured any of those at fault would still give me at least something, the odd cylinder firing, even a backfire or two, but most of the time, I was getting nothing at all - it was just like cranking with the power off. Except for the odd time when it started and ran fine for a couple of seconds. Under the aforementioned conditions, I figured only the injectors not opening would give me the symptoms I had.

So, maybe this is more evidence that it is indeed immobiliser related? Can I ask: does the info you have access to tell you whether, if I do have an immobiliser, it could only be a transponder key activated one? Is that the only type that could be fitted (factory fitted I mean - there doesn't appear to be anything non-standard based on the fact that both my key & fob are Toyota items)? Would I be correct to say that the simplest way to be absolutely sure is to pull the lower column trim off and see if I have the collar around the ignition barrel with the wires leading to the little plastic immobiliser box?

 

[sbman]

There is only one type of anti theft shown in the parts diagram. I posted the diagram for you. It is not listed as an option, it seemed to be standard. The keyless entry system is listed separately and doesn't seem to have any immobilizer function. The system with the transponder keys is called 'anti theft' by Toyota.

Your symptoms could also lead to a bad ECU, but I'd be surprised if it started for a few seconds with a bad ECU.

In the U.S. we have a set of tools available called 'noid lights' that you can push into the back of an injector to see if it's getting signal.

Noid light

You might see if there is something similar available there.

 

[Paul D63]

OK, many thanks yet again. I'm beginning to sound like a broken record aren't I? But I really do appreciate your efforts - you've gone way above & beyond the call of duty...

I've read about the noid lights - haven't checked the availability of them here. Maybe prudent to explore this immobiliser avenue first, see what the other locksmith guy makes of it - maybe this will be the cure. If not, then yes, a noid light would be a simple way to check if the injectors are switching on.

Let's see where we end up with the transponder key.

Will report back as soon as I have news.

 

[Paul D63]

Right, I have now absolutely convinced myself that this is an Immobiliser problem!

Today I removed the lower column trim, and from there I can see clearly the coil collar around the top of the key cylinder, the wires from this leading to a little metal cube, about the size of a standard relay, screwed to the bottom of the ignition barrel with two small screws and having more wires from it disappearing to, I assume, the immobiliser ECU. The metal cube looks the same as sbman's pictures of the coil amplifier, part #89783. I haven't traced the wires coming from it yet, but I'm absolutely expecting them to lead to an immobiliser ECU, as shown in the pictures, #89780.

So, we now know for sure that my vehicle is fitted with the equipment to read a transponder type key. But this is where it gets confusing, because I've been to see the other locksmith mentioned earlier whom I was waiting to speak to. He has also scanned the key with all of his equipment and, just as the first guy, claims there is no trace of a chip in the key. When I asked if it could simply be totally dead, he said it's possible, but very rare for that to be the case in his experience. He also looked at my alarm/remote locking fob, and he said that fob produces 'rolling codes' and that makes him think the fob controls the immobiliser, because he said it's unusual to have rolling codes just for an alarm, and it's generally reserved for immobilisers. Not sure if I buy that however...

But everything I've read on here, along with all the evidence available, suggests this is a transponder key. The photos on another thread showing a Euro style transponder key look identical to my key shown earlier in this thread. So I need a definitive answer as to whether or not my key is a transponder type. Myself, I feel 99% sure it is, not just from the photos, but also because why would my vehicle be fitted with all the components to read a transponder key if it didn't have one? And if it is, and none of the locksmith's equipment is finding the signal, then there's my problem isn't it? If the scanners can't find it, then neither will the car.

Going to go to my local Toyota dealer and see if they have a definitive answer on the key type. Not holding my breath however...

 

[Paul D63]

Well... subsequent to my previous post, as promised, I've been to my local Toyota dealer, but as I suspected, they were about as much use as a chocolate fireguard. This place has only existed for around 10 years, so I suspect no one there has ever laid their hands on an 80, never mind possess any in-depth knowledge of them. When I started explaining to the guy there about the checks I'd made so far and my findings, his eyes glazed over - I don't think he had the slightest idea what I was talking about! But the one thing everyone seems to agree on is that the only way to be certain one way or the other is to cut the key open to look for a chip. I'm a bit reluctant to do that, simply because, on the off-chance that I've got this all wrong and the fault doesn't lie with my immobiliser, then I've just wrecked my one & only working key.

So, this led me to call the specialist automotive locksmith I mentioned previously, as at least I know for sure that this guy can get stuff going even when there are no keys available. He seems fairly sure it will be a transponder key, and he's said I'm wasting my time with the local general locksmiths... but, he would say that wouldn't he? However, I feel he may well be correct in this case. He thinks he probably will be able to get mine working (if indeed it is the immobiliser at fault), but he said he may need physical access to the immobiliser ECU. I haven't found that yet, and I know this is a long shot as the U.S. spec doesn't have the immobiliser - but, does anyone know where I'll find the immobiliser ECU on mine? If I have to call out the specialist, it probably won't be cheap, but if I can have everything ready for him before he arrives, then it may save me something. If sbman's drawings are to any sort of scale, then it looks like the harness tail on the coil amplifier isn't very long, so maybe it's close to that location?

So sorry guys, but I need to probe the extensive knowledge base on this site yet again! Any ideas or info will be much appreciated.

 

[sbman]

Well it's good to know that it has the hardware. These types of systems fascinate me. I'm certainly glad the U.S. versions didn't have that system. From my experience with Toyota, it's hard to find someone that is good with parts and really knows their stuff. There are some great ones for sure that really know their stuff, but not all do. Hopefully you'll find someone that knows the older stuff or is at least willing to dig into it a bit.

I don't think rolling codes were at all uncommon in the 90's for key-less entry. Without it, any simple radio system could record and replay the unlock message and get into a car easily.

What I show for your model, from the Toyota parts diagram for keys is:

89785 TRANSMITTER, TRANSPONDER KEY MASTER
89785-60020 CUT KEY 160.76
89785-60030 BLANK KEY 53.63
TRANSMITTER, TRANSPONDER KEY SUB
89785-60020 CUT KEY 160.76
89785-60030 BLANK KEY 53.63

They call them 'Transmitter, transponder key'. I believe the MASTER denotes a physical master, not an electronic master. The transponder master is simply whichever key is programmed as 'MASTER' within the ECU and I believe, (but I'm not sure) that the master key was programmed to the ECU at the factory and cannot be re-done on the older systems. I could be wrong though. Information on the pre '98 anti theft system is VERY difficult to find. The master key is a physical concept in that it would work in all locks where the sub key would not work in the glove box, but it would in all other locks. It's confusing because the use the same terms as far as the 'master' key is concerned with the transponders as well.

Keep in mind that these part numbers are from an OLD parts book and may be superseded, possibly multiple times. However, those were valid part numbers at one time, and the descriptions should be accurate. The prices listed were list price in Euros at the time the parts book was created, and I don't know the date of that.

You should be able to find the immobilizer ECU by following the wire from the transponder amplifier you found under the dash. I don't know if the wire length is to scale or not. I'd also recommend ordering up a new key from Toyota or online so you have an extra. Your local dealer should at least be able to do that, they should be able to cut it based on your VIN and proof of ownership. If you have the specialist out and your key has a dead transponder you may be out of luck without a new key blank to work with, unless of course he stocks them, and knowing that your vehicle has a transponder based system, having a second key would be a great idea.

Here is a picture of the key from my '97 land cruiser. I had it cut based on VIN at my local dealer because the original one had worn out. It cost $10 and does not have a transponder in it. The original part number for it was 90999-00163

 

[sbman]

Here is a picture of the ECU that should be under your dash somewhere: