Frame Recovery Bracket Group Buy

[agaisin]

Agaisin,
Just wanted to applaud you for all your efforts to both organize the effort and accommodate the varying desires of the group. Great job.

Thank you.

This was only possible thanks to Spressomon's design and from seeing the success of the spressomon and calamaridog's previous group buys. This board is awesome and has helped me a lot so I'm excited to give back and looking forward to calling this a success - but we'll wait 'till everyone has them in hand and is happy, hopefully around the end of March...

 

[agaisin]

(UPDATE: see post 369 for latest detail on bolts and washers)

A few things to think about if you haven't already:
1) Bolts. You will need M14-1.5mm bolts. Ideally Class 10.9. I think they should be zinc coated (not plain) to prevent rust. I believe they should be partially threaded not fully threaded (you want the shear force on the shank not the threaded portion). Issue is where to get them...

M14 Class 10.9 course threaded (2mm) are easy to find. The problem is finding M14 FINE thread bolts - they're difficult to find and costly (upwards of $10/ea at fastenal M14-1.5 x 80mm DIN 960 Class 10.9 Zinc Cap Screw | Fastenal). Update - I'm still looking for a reasonably priced source for the 10.9 bolts (gotbolts.com had them cheap but not coated). The bolts I've found so far are 22mm head instead of 19mm head that stock bolts use iirc - shouldn't matter though.

Bolt length seems to be 80mm-110mm depending on what you're putting these on (stock bumper or aftermarket bumper and which version/brand of bumper). See earlier posts from previous group buys to determine your length - and perhaps someone else can chime in with specific recommendations. I can tell you that these FRB's are 1.625" high (~41mm) where the bolts go so you can use that to determine how much extra length you need to account for the FRBs compared to your current setup.

Also, you may be able to reuse your existing bolts. The stock front tow hook should have had 80mm bolts already that you should be able to reuse. If you are putting one on the driver's side those bolts won't be long enough - you would need to buy bolts. If you are putting them in the rear - the rear stock tow hook uses 60mm bolts which would not be long enough and the rear ps uses even shorter bolts. (Btw, at least on my '05 lx470 this design does not fit the rear stock bumper without cutting out some of the underside of the bumper).

2) Washers - it's been recommended to use hardened washers. I couldn't find those at gotbolts.com. I believe we would need 300 HV washers to match the 10.9 Bolts (200 HV are Class 8.8, 300 HV are Class 10.9 from what I've seen).

3) Shackles - these are designed for 3/4" bow shackles (which have 7/8" pin diameter). Most 3/4" shackles are rated at 4.75T WLL. Columbus McKinnon (and some other brands) make 3/4" shackles rated at 6.5T WLL (model # is M652P) and you can find them online for as little as $20.00. (If you can get to IronPigOffroad it looks like they had the best price on these 3/4" 6.5T orange shackles.)

If enough people are interested in the hardware (at least bolts) let me know (you can email or pm me) and I may be able to include those in your shipment (additional cost) - not confident on my source yet or how many people would need it. Also I would need a source for hardened M14 washers.

 

[SupraTuRD]

You're doing a helluva job Art. I may be interested in some quality hardware if the stock bolts are too short.

 

[TheFuzz]

Art,

I read your PM at work the other day and completely spaced replying to it, sorry. You made the choice that I would have suggested though, .905 would have been cutting it a tad close. I think that .938 works alot better without getting sloppy.

Thanks again for everything you've done here, really looking forward to getting the final product. I'm going to hold off on hardware for now, but would be interested in a good source for the washers should someone run across one.

 

[agaisin]

Crap - I knew it was too good to be true. Gotbolts.com only has the bolts plain/bare metal, not zinc coated so I cancelled the order. I'll keep looking. Also, about washers - I believe we'll need 300 HV washers to match the 10.9 bolts (200 HV would be class 8.8, 300 HV should be class 10.9).

 

[SmoothLC]

Thanks Art for putting this order together.

It's a great help to Mud members.

 

[r3run33]

sorry i was away; sent pm to ya art I hope i can get in on the deal still

 

[agaisin]

sorry i was away; sent pm to ya art I hope i can get in on the deal still

r3run33, you're should be good. I accounted for some extras to be made just in case without having to order more material - for anyone else though, there are only a few more spots left b/f the machinist would have to order more material.

 

[agaisin]

BOLTS and WASHERS!!!!

Long story short - it looks like I can supply the hardware at ~$13.00 per FRB (2 M14x1.5mmx80mm bolts + 2 300HV washers). Email or PM me so I have a list - PLEASE CONFIRM what size bolts you need before ordering (if you order the wrong size I may not be able to return/refund them).

If you need a different size the price will be different (and inventory may not be the same).

----
More detail below if interested.
Finally got a good source (reasonable price and in stock) for the bolts and they have plenty in stock. They also have 300HV washers - not in stock but it will only take them 3 days to get them in stock.

I ordered a small batch - enough for myself and anyone that told me they were interested over the past few days.

The rep told me they're the ones that supply fastenal and other major suppliers. Btw, $13 (for 2 bolts and 2 washers) is about the cost of a SINGLE FRIGGIN one of these bolts at some other fastener supply stores!)

The bolts are black coated - I believe that's fine and from earlier pics on this thread it looks like that's what was supplied b/f. Black coated [pretty sure that means black oxide] is thinner coating than zinc plating which has many benefits such as dimensional stability but among the cons is that it's not as corrosion resistant as zinc plating... Fwiw, the rep said the 10.9s are usually made with black coating rather than zinc plating.

Regarding the washers, the rep asked what I'm using these for b/c he said he's never gotten orders as long as he can remember for such hard washers. He said that the 200HV are technically hardened as well. From the basic info I saw, 200HV is for 8.8, 300HV is for 10.9. I assume 300HV is appropriate but curious if anyone else knows more?

 

[r3run33]

paypal sent thanks for all the hard work

 

[Mxndrnks]

PLEASE CONFIRM what size bolts you need before ordering (if you order the wrong size I may not be able to return/refund them).

Can some one please help me confirm what size bolts I need? It looks like Calamaridog was shipping these out on his run:

The bolt size is 14mm bolt x 80mm shaft and the head size is 22mm. Fine thread pitch is 1.5!!!

But there are also post of people using 110mm & 120mm bolt lengths. There isnt a definitive post that says if you are running "x" bumper you need "x" length.

I have a 2000LC with an arb 03+ combo bar. I will be mounting two of these in the front only. I have a BOIR rear bumper being built right now. So need for them in the rear.

Thanks guys!

 

[agaisin]

Question to the Bolt experts out there (this has been keeping me up at night):
In short, how concerned should we be about the threaded portion of the bolt being in the shear plane?
Based on this picture (post #116 https://forum.ih8mud.com/100-series...recovery-bracket-group-buy-6.html#post3055246) the 80mm bolt's threaded portion would appear in the shear plane. Not sure how big a deal that is - in theory it's a big deal, but these are already super strong bolts and most everyone's been using the FRBs with 80mm length so in practice even the reduce shear strength may still be overkill for our application?

So here's where I'm coming from - the bolts on these FRBs are under single shear load. Based on bolt science it seems best practice to have the shank in the shear plane rather than the threaded portion of the bolt in the shear plane.

By putting the threaded portion of the bolt in the shear plane, we are taking 14mm 10.9 bolts and reducing them to the shear strength of a bolt equivalent to the minor diameter of the threaded portion (believe it's ~12mm). So now instead of a 14mm 10.9 bolt we basically have a 12mm 10.9 bolt - this would seem to greatly reduce it's shear strength.

Just want to make sure it's ok to use 80mm. I haven't checked whether 90mm works - it's possible that's too long in which case we'd need to use 80mm (i.e. if the shank hits the threaded portion).

I didn't see this question come up here yet so I wanted to see what others think about it.

(Some of the material I'm pulling from: http://www.rockcrawler.com/techreports/fasteners/index.asp and http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/NutsandBolts/Nuts&Bolts_signed.pdf)

 

[agaisin]

I don't know if this effects any of the buyers of the FRB, but RoderickGI says the FRB won't fit on his 1998 LX470 with the '98-'02 ARB Sahara bar, that it would hit the vertical bolt in front of the recovery point mounting position.

To be clear, I have not and cannot gaurantee anyone what fits their bumpers if it's not stock. I have posted the CAD diagram that I'm using (which was the same as the two previous group buys) so there shouldn't be any new issues here - if it was an issue before it would be an issue now. Also, since the CAD specs have been available anyone can confirm the spacing/dimension they need if they're uncertain.

Nonetheless, if this does effect you, please let me know as soon as possible so we can try to work it out! The first batch (at least 10) is on schedule and I should have my hands on them sometime next week.

 

[RoderickGI]

First, apologies for the late reply. I have been away since February 11th, during all the time agaisin has been getting this group buy going, and am only just catching up with all my emails and forums.

As agaisin says, I have checked and this FRB design won't work on my 1998 LX470 with a '98 - '02 ARB Sahara Bull Bar fitted.

I only saw the CAD drawing that agaisin linked to recently, probably for the first time. Certainly it is the first time that I took detailed notice, since there was some discussion around whether the bracket will fit on all vehicles.

The FRB won't fit on my 1998 LX470 with the '98-'02 ARB Sahara bar. The FRB will hit the vertical bolt in front of the recovery point mounting position.

I worked this out by putting some grid lines over a larger version of the photo I posted of my current recovery hook ( https://forum.ih8mud.com/100-series...recovery-bracket-group-buy-5.html#post6095228 ). Using the bolt spacing of 60mm as a reference, I was able to scale off the photo. From the drawing, the distance from the centre of the front mounting hole to the rear of the bracket is 3 inches. This means that the distance from the centre of the front mounting hole to the front of the bracket is 3.5 inches, since the bracket is 6.5 inches long overall.

There is only 2.5 inches from the centre of the front mounting hole to the edge of the washer under the vertical bull bar mounting bolt, or about 3 (2.96) inches to the thread of the bolt. So the new FRB will hit the bolt itself. Removing the washer won't fix the problem.

I can't post a larger version on the image I used, but if anyone wants a copy I can email it to you. Or you could measure your own truck.

I also confirmed my measurements on my LX physically.


I suspect this effects everyone with the older version of the ARB Sahara bar. It won't even fit on Sincity's rig which I believe has a combination bar, based on the photo that 1LoudLX posted. Sincity, did you ever did actually fit one of those original design FRBs back in 2006? The thread seems to indicate that production of the FRBs never happened.

Despite assertions that "if it fits on the newer it will fit on the older", I don't think it will. The newer bars do not have the vertical bolt of the older bars. People with the older bars may still be able to use this bracket if they replace the vertical bolt with a higher mounted horizontal bolt like the newer bars, if this is possible.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, and that I couldn't let you all know earlier. Hopefully if doesn't effect too many of the people who have ordered the FRBs.

 

[pman]

The first batch (at least 10) is on schedule and I should have my hands on them sometime next week.

I'm curious as to how you are deciding who to ship to first? Going in the order of receiving payment?

I know its been said before, but thanks again for pulling this off

 

[agaisin]

I'm curious as to how you are deciding who to ship to first? Going in the order of receiving payment?

I know its been said before, but thanks again for pulling this off

Hmm - I'll probably go with order payed. If anyone has an urgent need to get them sooner (trip planned etc) let me know and I'll take that into consideration.

Fair enough?

Also just to be clear when I said 'next week' I meant the week starting 3/7 for when he said the first batch should be ready for me to pickup.

 

[Mxndrnks]

I'm curious as to how you are deciding who to ship to first? Going in the order of receiving payment?

I know its been said before, but thanks again for pulling this off

Hmm - I'll probably go with order payed. If anyone has an urgent need to get them sooner (trip planned etc) let me know and I'll take that into consideration.

Fair enough?

Also just to be clear when I said 'next week' I meant the week starting 3/7 for when he said the first batch should be ready for me to pickup.

Dont know where I am in the "List". But, I dont need mine until CM11. So, if some one is pushing to get theirs sooner, I can wait.

Cheers.

 

[FullyLitLED]

Hmm - I'll probably go with order payed. If anyone has an urgent need to get them sooner (trip planned etc) let me know and I'll take that into consideration.

Fair enough?

Also just to be clear when I said 'next week' I meant the week starting 3/7 for when he said the first batch should be ready for me to pickup.

I will send you the money by friday, well the rest of the money

Does a trip to the mall count as a planned trip?

 

[2000UZJ]

Does a trip to the mall count as a planned trip?

He may have a basket stuck in a off-camber situation. Better get them to him pronto.

 

[agaisin]

I got the bolts earlier this week - they are what I expected so that's good news. Still waiting on the washers. I sent out paypal invoices for the hardware to those that said they wanted.

Still planning to pickup the first batch of FRBs early next week.

Also, I've been having fun running Stress Analysis on the part. I've set it up a number of different ways - not being a mechanical engineer and not having prior experience with FEA/Stress Analysis I have some very specific questions about how to model it properly and would love to have someone peer review the results and/or provide guidance on the configuration setting. PM me if you could assist.