For the nerds - Windows 7

[SteveLCetc]

Mike - XP

Jon - Luddite.

 

[Beowulf]

B--Since you're a computer smart guy.

Will W-7 run Delorme Topo better than Vista? The program runs great on XP, but crashes about every 20 minutes on Vista. If it isn't predictable, then I'm sticking with my remaining XP machine for awhile longer.

I think with 2 kids in college, I'll be able to come up with a $30 copy of W-7.

Hi Andrew!
I don't have Delorme Topo but you can check their support forums to see if they have an updated version. It looks like they have discussions on Topo USA V5, V6, V7, and V8. Which version do you run?

Windows 7 Pro has an "XP Compatibility" mode that is not in Windows 7 Home Premium. I have read that the student price gives you the option of ordering either version. I don't know all the details but Win7 sets up a virtual machine environment for running trouble-some XP programs; i.e. those that were not written for Vista/Windows-7 radically improved security. The reports that I have read on the XP Compatibility mode are very good.

Windows 7 is quicker than Vista due to improvements made in the UI.

-Mike-

 

[Source3]

Good for you Pappy. Your philosophy is one of the reasons I opened Source3 Computing; to help people limp along with what they have. I was tired of hearing people spend a lot of money on a new computer when what they had was fine.

I myself will stick with XP and Linux. I do not upgrade until 1 1/2 to 2 years after a release becomes stable. To risky!

[curmudgeon = on]

Aside from having the "latest and greatest," why would I want to upgrade? What I have now works. It does what I want. I know how to use it.

The thought of having to spend the next year learning a new program or OS just doesn't sound appealing. The thought of having to spend big bucks on a new computer because my 4 year old junk is too old to run the latest razzmatazz doesn't sound appealing. The thought of spending a weekend reinstalling all my old software, some old enough to be on floppy disks, then having to spend the next month trouble-shooting the issues, doesn't sound appealing.

Then there will be the hardware incompatibilities, the non-existent drivers, and my programs that won't run for whatever reason (i.e. Microsoft didn't write them and like hell are they going to support Open Office, or Lotus, or Adobe, or even my Garmin GPS). It seems every time I "upgrade" I end up with issues, and either have to abandon hardware and software, or spend bucks to "upgrade" those too (the upgrade to Win98 wouldn't read my Nikon slide scanner. The upgrade to XP wouldn't read my floppy drive ... how stupid is that?). Even the periodic SP upgrades to my Windoz XP would crash this or that.

And don't even try to tell me I can call the friendly folks at Microsoft for tech support ... at least without cracking open my wallet. BTDT.

I'm sticking with the old saying ... if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[curmudgeon = off]

 

[Beowulf]

I do not upgrade until 1 1/2 to 2 years after a release becomes stable.

How do you determine a "release" is stable?

-Mike-

 

[SteveLCetc]

Isn't Windows 7 really just a Service Pack for Vista, but they decided they wanted to charge for it?

 

[Beowulf]

Will W-7 run Delorme Topo better than Vista? The program runs great on XP, but crashes about every 20 minutes on Vista.

The newly released (yet unstable? ) SA2010 runs on Windows 7 according to the Delorme web site and reported by several users.

The same web site claims that Topo V8 runs on Vista but it appears you are having problems so I would contact Delorme to find out why it won't run reliably on your laptop. I didn't see where anyone reported they were using Topo V8 and Win7.

-Mike-

 

[Source3]

How do you determine a "release" is stable?

-Mike-

Mike:

note: I am not referring to the security releases, just the service packs and major upgrades.

In the Windows environment, when a new release or service pack is released to the general public it is considered stable. Then I wait for a year or so and start to scan the forums for the two programs (ArcMap and Quickbooks) that I need to run in Windows. When I start to read about nit picky issues it is a signal to myself that the major issues have been resolved and it is potentially safe to upgrade.

In the Linux environment, I have a test machine that I load a new release on to. Since it only takes 30 minutes to install and another 30 minutes to load additional software (in Linux everything is downloadable, no disks to insert, no liscense keys, etc) it is worthwhile for me to test. If I have any issues I report the bug and ususally within the week the bug is fixed. And when I feel like it, I upgrade my desktop machine that pays my bills.

I must admit, I have been a little busy to upgrade my Ubuntu 8.04 desktop machine to 9.04. In Ubuntu, a release occurs twice a year. In April then again in October. Hence 9.10 is the next release, October, 2009 (hence 9.10). However, on my Linux Server I will continue to use 8.04 as it is a long term support (LTS) release and runs critical server software such as my security camera's, SSH, file server, etc.

 

[Cruisergreg]

In the Windows environment, when a new release or service pack is released to the general public it is considered stable.

Isn't any Windows initial release really just a beta test?

 

[Beowulf]

Isn't Windows 7 really just a Service Pack for Vista, but they decided they wanted to charge for it?

I will assume this is a serious question. I'm not a MS fanboy but this might come across that way. My apologies if it does...

How a software company like Microsoft determines a new version versus minor feature enhancements versus major feature enhancements versus bug fixes is way beyond my pay grade. They could call this Windows 3.0 SP 8753421 if they wanted to and maybe all the Windows users would not expect to pay for a "new" OS. Somehow I don't think corporate investors for Apple, MS, IBM, Oracle, Autodesk, or any other commercial SW company would be happy with that decision. And yes, I'm fully aware of Open Source efforts for operating systems and productivity software.

Windows 7 is a major release of the Windows OS. It is not a service pack for Vista. Windows 7 will be followed by Windows 8 that is already in development and alpha versions will be available in a few months. I won't (and can't) rattle off all the changes from Vista but they are significant. Many will be apparent to the user and will be seen as "faster" and more user friendly. Hundreds or thousands more changes are behind the scenes to solidify the OS and make it more resistant to malicious attacks.

Jon mentioned compatibility with older software so I'll take that as an example. The software model used in prior versions enabled code to gain control of the OS either intentionally or unintentionally. A poorly written device driver could take down a system. Now this is inconvenient if you are home surfing p0rn and your system crashes forcing a reboot, but it is a bit more than inconvenient if this is a server with a few thousand simultaneous users accessing a database with a few million records containing patient records and the results of hospital lab tests.

From a MS technical article:
Enhancing Security

When new features are added to enhance the security of the operating system the features generally affect application compatibility. In many cases this occurs because the feature is designed to limit behavior of malware by changing behavior in the operating system or an application platform technology, such as Internet Explorer®. As previously mentioned, applications are built to use a wide variety of platform functionality, and any change has the potential for application compatibility issues.

The following features enhance Windows 7 security and represent important advancements:

* Internet Explorer Protected Mode. Included in Windows 7, Internet Explorer 8 runs in Protected Mode, which can help protect users from attack by running the Internet Explorer process with greatly restricted privileges. Protected Mode significantly reduces the ability of an attack to write, alter, or destroy data on the user's machine or to install malicious code. It can help protect a user from malicious code installing itself without authorization. This mode is the default for Internet Explorer 8 when Windows 7 is installed.

* Internet Explorer 8 - Data Execution Protection (DEP)/NX. Internet Explorer 8 will enable DEP/NX protection when run on an operating system with the latest service pack. Windows XP SP3, Windows Server 2003 SP3, Windows Vista SP1, and Windows Server 2008 all have DEP/NX enabled by default in Internet Explorer 8. Typically, any application that runs in Internet Explorer and is not compatible with DEP/NX will crash on startup and will not function. Internet Explorer may crash on startup if add-ons not compatible with DEP/NX are installed.

* Session 0 Isolation. In Windows XP and earlier versions of Windows, all services run in the same session as the first user who logs on to the console. This session is called Session 0. Running services and user applications together in Session 0 poses a security risk because services run at elevated privilege and therefore are targets for malicious agents that are looking for a means to elevate their own privilege levels. The Windows Vista and Windows 7 operating systems mitigate this security risk by isolating services in Session 0 and making Session 0 non-interactive. In this case, only system processes and services run in Session 0. The first user logs on to Session 1, and subsequent users log on to subsequent sessions. This approach means that services never run in the same session as users' applications and are therefore safeguarded from attacks that originate in application code.

If you, one of you employees/friends, or a family member have had a system jacked up due to some deviant that lured you to a malicious web site then you will appreciate any and all changes like those described above.

-Mike-

 

[pappy]

Could you post a pic of a floppy drive. I haven't seen one in 10 years and forgot what they look like.


Thread title=For the nerds - Windows 7
Interpretation: Jon, this thread and gated communities are not for you. If Windows 95 still does what you need then don't upgrade. Windows 7 is for those of us living in this century and moving on to the year 2010.

-Mike-

Some of us don't have the time to mess around with "upgrading." If I was a 7 year old starting out with a new computer, then I could justify the plunge to Doz 7. But I have years and years of software and hardware that I would like to continue using. I don't want to upgrade every program, and every peripheral, just because of the latest Dozer from Microsoft.

And Steve, don't feed me this Luddite crap (OK, I know you are giving me a hard time). My own personal experience with upgrading computers over the last 25 years tells me that the $$ cost of the OS is only the beginning. There will also be the cost to acquire new hardware and updated software ... plus the time to install, trouble-shoot, and learn. After all, designed obsolescence is the American Way and MickySoft has learned it well.

If most of what I run would run on Linux I would be all over it.

 

[Beowulf]

In the Windows environment, when a new release or service pack is released to the general public it is considered stable.

If you are waiting 18 months to apply Windows service packs then you are a sitting duck for the bad guys. For example SP2 for XP is where we got decent security. There were major vulnerabilities publicized in the scene and a lot of companies got burned if they didn't apply that SP shortly (1 or 2 days) after it was made available.

I can understand not upgrading the OS on some HW. We have 2 or 3 VM's still running Server 2000. Why? Because those servers will be sunset RSN, the functions they do are going away, and I don't want to allocate resources to do an upgrade. They have the current OS service, run non-critical functions, and are relatively well protected by other assets.

-Mike-

 

[Beowulf]

If most of what I run would run on Linux I would be all over it.

And you wouldn't be happy 'cause you have to update HW and apps in the Linux world just like you have to do it in the Mac world and the M$ world.

I don't want to upgrade every program, and every peripheral, just because of the latest Dozer from Microsoft.

Hang in there Jon because cloud computing is a reality and it is coming soon to a service provider near you. The only difference is that Google will be in your wallet instead of M$ but it will be effortless; no apps to upgrade... no drivers to install... all the HD space you want anytime and anywhere you want it. We'll all have 3 or 4 monitors, an input device (probably not a kbd), and maybe some type of printer device. That's all. Google will give us everything else we need.

-Mike-

 

[pappy]

Hang in there Jon because cloud computing is a reality and it is coming soon to a service provider near you. The only difference is that Google will be in your wallet instead of M$ but it will be effortless; no apps to upgrade... no drivers to install... all the HD space you want anytime and anywhere you want it. We'll all have 3 or 4 monitors, an input device (probably not a kbd), and maybe some type of printer device. That's all. Google will give us everything else we need.

-Mike-

Great. I look forward to that day. Only one device to purchase and own. When will that happen? Sometime after Windoz 25?

Seriously, you mention the multiple monitors. I'm willing to bet my PC won't support Doz 7, even with a RAM upgrade. I also bet my hard drive won't be large enough, and the newer drives don't work in my IDE computer. That means a new computer. Then, that computer won't support my dual monitor video card. That means a new video card ... toss a $100 card and spend $$ on a replacement. Then I need to try out all of my programs and see if they run. That could take a weekend, easy, of trial and error. Then those applications that don't run will require the purchase of new upgrades, or hopefully download them (Mozilla, Open Office, and hopefully things like my GPS driver ... I'm sure my Lotus Suite is trash). Hopefully that won't take more than another weekend. Oh, I forgot spending the time searching my hard drive and backing up my data files (only to hope I can get them back on and working).

Then comes the question. Will I be happier for the effort, or will I muddle along like before?

Frankly, I'd rather spend those weekends in Moab. You packed yet?

 

[Cruiserdrew]

The newly released (yet unstable? ) SA2010 runs on Windows 7 according to the Delorme web site and reported by several users.

The same web site claims that Topo V8 runs on Vista but it appears you are having problems so I would contact Delorme to find out why it won't run reliably on your laptop. I didn't see where anyone reported they were using Topo V8 and Win7.

-Mike-

Thanks, I did this already. I'm running T-7. It says it is compatable with Vista, and it will run. It just doesn't remain stable tracking a GPS input for real time use. Works great on XP. Even run in "compatability mode" it still goes down and often takes the entire computer down with it.

I love TOPO but I'm not buying 8 or 9 until I know for sure it's good. Any laptop can do the low power stuff I need-email, surf, a few pictures. Now if I can just get it to run Topo, I'll be a happy dude.

 

[Beowulf]

Jon,
There is a Win7 compatibility check on one of the MS web sites that really does a great job. It identified 3 or 4 apps on my work computer that were not compatible and I needed to do an upgrade of those apps. No biggie.

Your old Lotus suite is toast but Lotus apps are toast right now anyway. Is that what you're still keeping on those old 8" floppy disks?

I don't think a new OS is something you need to tackle right now. Leave that for the HDC nerds.

As far as packing for Moab... you'll be getting a PM from me shortly.

-Mike-

 

[SteveLCetc]

Drew -

What are you using for a GPS receiver? My LT-40 always picks up in less than 2 or 3 seconds with T7. with no trees, and tracks extremely well. Using my old Garmin it didn't do very well...

 

[Cruiserdrew]

Drew -

What are you using for a GPS receiver? My LT-40 always picks up in less than 2 or 3 seconds with T7. with no trees, and tracks extremely well. Using my old Garmin it didn't do very well...

Using a USGlobalsat 353. It's a nice receiver with good acquire times and excellent accuracy. In Utah this year it was routinely tracking under 1m. The best part is that it costs $35.

Perfect on my XP netbook. Not so perfect with my high powered Compaq Vista machine.

 

[pappy]

Jon,
There is a Win7 compatibility check on one of the MS web sites that really does a great job.

-Mike-

My computer did better than I thought.

System: I need a RAM upgrade, but I knew that. The on-board graphics adapter failed, but that's a moot point since my dual video card passed. CPU speed was OK. Hard drive was OK, but it will not leave much room.

Devices: Motorola Cable Modem was "not compatible." Printer and zip drive were compatible. It didn't find my scanner.

Programs: It only found two. Funny my Open Office was listed as "minor issues," yet my MS ActiveSync was "not compatible." Imagine that. It didn't report on anything else.

Over all not as bad as I expected.

 

[Beowulf]

Over all not as bad as I expected.

I am shocked that your 8" floppy drive passed. Can you still get media for that thing?

-Mike-

 

[pappy]

I can ... I stocked up. I just wish I had as much foresight with the R-12.