Floaty and swaying suspension

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Joined
Oct 17, 2016
Threads
14
Messages
102
Location
Corpus Christi, Texas
I have a 2009 with BP-51's and 2724 springs. Just got back from a 2500 mile trip and my wife and kids got motion sick due to how the vehicle handles. The front of the vehicle handles great however the rear feels to be floaty and sways constantly left to right. My vehicle currently has a Dobinson front bumper with winch, in the rear I have a LRA 40gal tank and dissent rear bumper with dual swing outs. I am at a loss here and not sure what could be contributing to this feeling. I called and talked to ARB about the shocks and was told to increase the rebound, which is now at 10 and the compression is at 4. I have a RTT (180lbs) coming in tomorrow and will be installing ADGU drawers and possibly a fridge. I would really appreciate any input that y'all can give. Thanks
20220303_160005.jpg
 
It is probably your rear panhard rod being so far from level with the ground. This causes side-to-side movement of the rear axle with compression or extension of the rear suspension.

It has been discussed a bit lately around here.. search for panhard relocation bracket.
 
I assume your shocks are 16 position adjustable for compression and rebound? And 2724 are pretty high rate?

While I don't disagree with @bloc, you're not going to solve that simply. And that may be an added symptom of the suspension needing more tuning.

IMO, you need to turn up the compression damper, especially at the rear quite a bit to to handle the high rate 2724 springs. Shock tuning needs to be matched with spring rate. It cannot arbitrarily be tuned for a "better ride" by dialing it down. I'd go 2/3rds to 3/4s into its compression and rebound damping range as a start and see how it's doing.

Part of what's going on is the damping and spring rate is managed well at the front. Because the rear is underdamped, motions and energy is being transferred to the rear. The up and down motion at the rear causes the suspension to cycle, and with the panhard bar at a more extreme angle because of the lift, is translating some of that oscillation laterally.
 
I assume your shocks are 16 position adjustable for compression and rebound? And 2724 are pretty high rate?

While I don't disagree with @bloc, you're not going to solve that simply. And that may be an added symptom of the suspension needing more tuning.

IMO, you need to turn up the compression damper, especially at the rear quite a bit to to handle the high rate 2724 springs. Shock tuning needs to be matched with spring rate. It cannot arbitrarily be tuned for a "better ride" by dialing it down. I'd go 2/3rds to 3/4s into its compression and rebound damping range as a start and see how it's doing.

Part of what's going on is the damping and spring rate is managed well at the front. Because the rear is underdamped, motions and energy is being transferred to the rear. The up and down motion at the rear causes the suspension to cycle, and with the panhard bar at a more extreme angle because of the lift, is translating some of that oscillation laterally.
I agree that damping probably isn’t adequate to allow enough movement to notice the axle shift to that extent, but it simply means they are noticing a problem that exists whether they notice it or not.

IMO this is something more of us should be thinking about.. which is why I’m excited for more bracket options to be developed, and more discussion on here about the issue.
 
I agree that damping probably isn’t adequate to allow enough movement to notice the axle shift to that extent, but it simply means they are noticing a problem that exists whether they notice it or not.

IMO this is something more of us should be thinking about.. which is why I’m excited for more bracket options to be developed, and more discussion on here about the issue.

Oh yeah. I'm completely with you on the panhard relocation and it's something I've also been a proponent of for a long time, because adjustable length bars are not it.

Just saying that the OP needs to dial in the damping first. The panhard is a secondary issue for him at the moment, and unless custom fab'd, doesn't have a solution.
 
I’d agree with that.

@mbennett22 how much total lift are you at in the rear?

Edit: also, can you measure the angle of your panhard rod from horizontal?
 
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@bloc Honestly I'm not sure, I think I got the 2 inch lift however the 2724 coils say they are .75 inch lift. As for the panhard bar I'd have to figure out how to measure angle haha. I find it odd that more people are complaining about the rear sway. It is pretty significant.

@TeCKis300 dialing in the shocks would have to be my crutch. I bought them knowing that I could adjust them to suit what I needed them for but feel that I am somewhat limited. When I called ARB and they told me to bump my rebound up, I was at an 8 and they told me go to 10 I found it odd. I'm maxed out on the rebound and there are guys on here with a hell of a lot heavier rigs than I have and they are set at 6-8 on rebound. I will definitely adjust the compression tomorrow and see how that feels.​

LOL there are times where I ask myself why I spent the extra dough on the BP-51's.
 
You can get a digital angle gauge for pretty cheap online. Just zero it to the ground you are parked on then set it on the panhard.

Looks like more than 2” to me, but I’m not there with a tape measure and maybe you are referring to loaded when the pic isn’t.

I will say that the angle to lift relationship isn’t linear. 1”, not much change. 2”, more than 2x as much. If you are at say 4”… very significant change in angle. As for how much angle is too much.. maybe a good question for the people developing brackets.
 
@bloc here is what I ordered from OK4WD

Old Man Emu BP-51 Coil Over and Shock Absorber Kit for 2008+ Toyota Land Cruiser 200 Series
SKU: Old Man Emu BP-51 Kit for Toyota Land Cruiser 200 Series-ARBBP5190003L-ARBBP5190003R-ARBVM80010003-ARBBP5160026-ARBVM80010005-ARB2724
1
Front Driver Side Coilover
1 x Old Man Emu BP-51 High Performance Front Coil Over (Driver Side) for 2008+ Toyota Land Cruiser 200 Series $795.40
Front Passenger Side Coilover
1 x Old Man Emu BP-51 High Performance Front Coil Over (Passenger Side) for 2008+ Toyota Land Cruiser 200 Series $795.40
Front Mount Kit
1 x BP-51 Front Mount Kit $62.08
Rear Bypass Shocks
2 x Old Man Emu BP-51 Rear Bypass Shock $507.31
Select Rear Mount Kit
1 x BP-51 Rear Mount Kit (KDSS Equipped) $60.14
Select Rear Coil Springs
1 x #2724 Constant Load (880LBS) [.75" Lift] $297.79
 
@bloc what do you think about this angle?
20220318_165545.jpeg
 
I'm interested in what you find out, too. I have also not yet found nirvana with my BP-51 setup. It all started with the bouncy/floaty rear end and that side to side motion that was noticeable enough to me to try and fix. Here's some of my experiences with the BP-51 in case it helps you or others.

The first issue was with the shocks itself. First, there was a leaking valve on a rear shock (which was replaced under warranty.) But the overall feeling was still not great. Like you and others have mentioned, the BP-51 felt floaty in the rear and I also experienced the side-to-side motion when going over certain terrain. (Unfortunately the speed bumps in my neighborhood are those wider ones that really get the back to act up and bounce at 15mph. To a point that every time I leave my neighborhood I think about this suspension.

For the side to side - I put in the dobinsons adjustable pan-hard bar to try and help address the side-to-side motion. (It maybe helped a bit, but really tough to tell.) But as I recall, I think it may have only helped the tracking. But it also seemed to cause the truck to lean to the driver-side.

As others have expressed in a number of other threads, I've learned about the relocation bracket used on 80's and am definitely interested in exploring that option for my 200.

For the floaty rear- I've adjusted the rebound and compression throughout the range. A shop tested the pressure of the shocks and found all four shocks were very low- about 50-75% of the desired pressure. They topped them off to spec and now the shocks definitely felt better. (I still have no idea if they came from the factory like that or if they leaked down over time- they had about 3500 miles on them. I hope the seals aren't bad and that they won't leak down over time again.) But if you find that your BP-51's aren't as adjustable as you had hoped, maybe the pressures are low.

Spring-wise in the rear, I'm running 2723's but have ordered a set of 2724's to try out. I'm heavier than I once was and I am curious if I might like the stiffer spring. (I'm running an ARB rear bumper w/ dual swingouts, 24 gal aux fuel tank, and when we go out I'm even heavier with gear and tent.)

I know there are threads on this too, but since you mentioned some of your floaty symptoms, I'll share that I'm currently at 8/10 for both rebound and 8/10 for compression. I just drove from Seattle to Bend and the suspension on the highway felt better than previously. It felt better planted (to me) than lighter settings (4/10 rebound, 6/10 compression.)

(edited for clarity and after reading more about a panhard bracket for a 200)
 
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@bloc what do you think about this angle?View attachment 2956559


Also, here's a thread about the "wiggle" that the 80 folks have fixed with a bracket and explains how that helps. (Check it out if you haven't seen it yet.) And the embedded youtube video is really good and helping visualize the issues with the geometry.

 
@bloc Honestly I'm not sure, I think I got the 2 inch lift however the 2724 coils say they are .75 inch lift. As for the panhard bar I'd have to figure out how to measure angle haha. I find it odd that more people are complaining about the rear sway. It is pretty significant.

@TeCKis300 dialing in the shocks would have to be my crutch. I bought them knowing that I could adjust them to suit what I needed them for but feel that I am somewhat limited. When I called ARB and they told me to bump my rebound up, I was at an 8 and they told me go to 10 I found it odd. I'm maxed out on the rebound and there are guys on here with a hell of a lot heavier rigs than I have and they are set at 6-8 on rebound. I will definitely adjust the compression tomorrow and see how that feels.​

LOL there are times where I ask myself why I spent the extra dough on the BP-51's.

Suspension tuning can be a bit of voodoo requiring experience, and tunability can be a double edged sword. Almost more ways to get it wrong than right. One of the general principles is that damping needs to be matched to spring rate. If spring rate is increased, damping needs to also increase. There's many other variables to be sure.

BP-51s were likely developed to be paired with a whole slew of OME and other spring choices. But that also means their nominal valving is suitable for the typical spring used by the end user. For 10 position, that would assume something like 3-5 on both compression and rebound for a spring in the middle of their offerings.

If we look at the OME spring range:

OME 2720/2721 - 270-340
OME 2722 - 275
OME 2723 - 340
OME 2724 - 400

2724s is at the higher end of the spring rate spectrum. Which is why I believe you'll want to be about 8+ on both compression and rebound. The reason ARB is saying to up the rebound, is because upping compression can give the perception of more spring rate, aka harsher ride. But too little compression damping means a lot of energy will be put into the spring on the initial bump, and upping rebound alone is not going to be enough damping to absorb the energy on spring back alone. Damping is about absorbing and controlling ride motions so the chassis doesn't continue to oscillate after the initial hit and spring back. From the symptoms, it's underdamped. Increase it and it should control the ride motions and sway oscillations much better.
 
Watch this video for an explanation of the issue. I’m not totally sure the exact angle that presents problems but as the video makes clear the further you are from totally level the worse the problem will be, and it doesn’t take much.

Adjustable panhard, or one bent on the ends, makes no difference for this issue. The only fix is to have the ends as close to level as possible.

 
@mbennett22 I have the same issue on 2723s. I have bumpers (winch and swingout), sliders, and ARB drawers with about 200lbs in them daily. I cannot get rid of the "wag" no matter what setting is on the BPs, so I feel your pain in buying these things. I can crank them pretty high and eliminate most of it on the interstate (where the wag is most obvious), but then my truck rides like a wooden wheeled wagon on s***ty city streets. I find the BPs to be very poor at finding a middle ground. I am sure they are great for Ausie outback roads for days at a time, but they are less than optimal for American use. I just don't feel like I should have to climb under the truck every time I want to pull off and drive a fire road or whatever. That is why I started the Panhard drop thread, and hopefully that will help....something.
 

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