Builds FJfordy4DR12V (purists turn your eyes away from this one) (19 Viewers)

[Ditcherman]

Is it the pics or is your front shock angle inverted?

Here’s a straight level shot of the setup as it is.
By inverted do you mean the top is farther out than the axle mount? If so, yes, just a bit, about 2 degrees.
Does this seem backwards to everything you’ve ever seen? Does to me but it packaged and flexed.

 

[Ditcherman]

132 inch wb .

So, is that to long to even think about taking in the rocks?

 

[Firemedic831]

IMHO 112 is the sweat spot . unless you are running 54s with a 132 wb plan on turtling that thing on everything

 

[Ditcherman]

IMHO 112 is the sweat spot . unless you are running 54s with a 132 wb plan on turtling that thing on everything

Thanks.
Looking forward to getting it out, seeing what it can do. I’ve never crawled before so maybe it will be the most overbuilt trail rig ever.
I just keep going down the path.

 

[cruisermatt]

View attachment 3732278
Here’s a straight level shot of the setup as it is.
By inverted do you mean the top is farther out than the axle mount? If so, yes, just a bit, about 2 degrees.
Does this seem backwards to everything you’ve ever seen? Does to me but it packaged and flexed.

Yes. Not only is it backwards it’s a major no-no. You need to change that.
You want their instant center to be above the vehicle, not below it, and ideally at all stages of the suspension cycling. Cut and clearance whatever you need to to make that happen.
Think about them like your truck’s legs. And think about if the truck was leaned over on a 20-degree hill where you would want your coilovers to point to support the sprung weight

 

[Ditcherman]

Yes. Not only is it backwards it’s a major no-no. You need to change that.
You want their instant center to be above the vehicle, not below it, and ideally at all stages of the suspension cycling. Cut and clearance whatever you need to to make that happen.
Think about them like your truck’s legs. And think about if the truck was leaned over on a 20-degree hill where you would want your coilovers to point to support the sprung weight

Wow. Ok, thank you for saying something. Feel pretty dumb doing that I guess. But feel more disappointed that I have to peel those off, again.
I was really hoping to avoid cutting into the fenders, just to have the room in the engine bay.

 

[cruisermatt]

Looks like you have room to move the lower mount further out onto the outer-C. Those are steel and you can weld to them. But yeah you are going to want to get those upper mounts probably like 6-8” inboards from where they are now. Maybe you can just flip your towers you built around.

 

[Ditcherman]

Looks like you have room to move the lower mount further out onto the outer-C. Those are steel and you can weld to them. But yeah you are going to want to get those upper mounts probably like 6-8” inboards from where they are now. Maybe you can just flip your towers you built around.

Just to confirm, this is a problem? Coilovers are roughly straight up and down at full stuff with opposite side full extension.


Also, you’re probably really gonna hate the rear…

ETA although this is roughly straight up and down, full stuff/full extension.

 

[cruisermatt]

Think about it this way. Your coilovers are the left and right sides of an imaginary trapezoid/triangle. They are the only thing supporting the body/frame of your vehicle, which is otherwise unconstrained.

No hate here, but you want this to actually drive well with all this work you are doing, right? I’d definitely punch thru the rear wheel wheels and get those upper mounts inwards too. Especially if you’re going to have a full length hard top on this beast. That’s a lot of weight up high

Another question, can you get that axle side panhard mount over to the passenger side any more? Do you know how much overall horizontal delta you’ll have thru your travel range? It’s just my gut but it panhard looks pretty short short relative to the travel.

 

[Ditcherman]

Think about it this way. Your coilovers are the left and right sides of an imaginary trapezoid/triangle. They are the only thing supporting the body/frame of your vehicle, which is otherwise unconstrained.

No hate here, but you want this to actually drive well with all this work you are doing, right? I’d definitely punch thru the rear wheel wheels and get those upper mounts inwards too. Especially if you’re going to have a full length hard top on this beast. That’s a lot of weight up high

Another question, can you get that axle side panhard mount over to the passenger side any more? Do you know how much overall horizontal delta you’ll have thru your travel range? It’s just my gut but it panhard looks pretty short short relative to the travel.

First, thanks again.

I get the support concept, and feel like I’m pretty good at visualizing that sort of thing, but can’t bring myself to understand how what I have could lead to much more instability -BUT- I have to believe you, from an experience standpoint, which I have none of.

So, I just don’t understand it - yet.

Yes definitely building it as a driver.
(Not going to say anything about it yet but would love to put a 150 lb rooftop tent up there! Just between you and me)

If you can see the blue marker lines, that is horizontal movement through all up and down movement (they aren’t centered anymore because something moved but they are relatively correct) just under 1/2” total horizontal. It is over to the passenger side as far as possible, when the driver side is extended and the passenger side is stuffed, to clear the frame.

I have spent a TON of time working through this with the link calculator, for the links and panhard, but haven’t used the shock page much. But that’s how I came up with the panhard location.

 

[cruisermatt]

Ok, that 1/2" delta I think should be just fine, I will let others chime in though.

What is your overall estimated roll center height? What is your overall estimated COG?

 

[Firemedic831]

Ultimately you want your panhard bar and your drag link to be in the same plane and equal length This is to prevent Bump steer .

 

[Ditcherman]

Ok, that 1/2" delta I think should be just fine, I will let others chime in though.

What is your overall estimated roll center height? What is your overall estimated COG?

If I’m comprehending it correctly my roll center height is 26.8 for the rear and 24.7 front.
I have estimated a 34” CG. This is just above bell housing on the 12V.

Ok, that 1/2" delta I think should be just fine, I will let others chime in though.

What is your overall estimated roll center height? What is your overall estimated COG?

I've estimated my CG at 34", just above the top of bell housing on the 12V.
If I'm understanding the question and the charts right, rear roll center is 26.8" and front is 24.7"

 

[Firemedic831]

Your anti Squat should be closer to 80-100

 

[Ditcherman]

Concerning my coilover mounts, I was pretty down at first, but then accepted the fact if they needed to come off I would. This morning I came up with an elegant solution where the hoops could stay, the mounts could be moved to the inside of the hoops, the axle mounts moved out, and I could then see about clearance.
In the meantime, I called Accutune to get their opinion, and he walked me through his logic. As the wheel moves, the shock length needs to move proportionally and consistently through the travel. If the shock slows down or speeds up out of proportion with wheel travel, it indicates that instability or lack of control issues may be present. I fully flexed it out again, and took a measurement of the coilover length for every inch I raised the wheel. It was nearly 100% lineal relationship, with any differences being attributed to measurement error. (all 3/4", if one reading was 5/8, the next one was 7/8, consistently)

I'm left with the decision to move on as is, or take the common advice of many posters in many threads across many forums. I do believe the science behind it and trust accutune, but also believe that many with experience have gone before me. People don't go to a lot of trouble to cut into their tubs for nothing.

 

[Firemedic831]

View attachment 3732556
View attachment 3732559
Just to confirm, this is a problem? Coilovers are roughly straight up and down at full stuff with opposite side full extension.


Also, you’re probably really gonna hate the rear…View attachment 3732569
ETA although this is roughly straight up and down, full stuff/full extension.

Hard to tell but it looks to me that when you put the coil on its going to hit the tire .

 

[Ditcherman]

Hard to tell but it looks to me that when you put the coil on its going to hit the tire .

These are the build tires, but I had already flexed it out with an actual tire mounted on a rim. It’s close all around but everything clears, for the most part. All the compromises come together.
Everything clears except for my street worthy single shear steering arm, at driver full droop/passenger full stuff. I’ll have to get some of those fancy knuckles one day, solve a couple of problems.

You can see drag link hitting with still a half inch of rod still showing.
Panhard and drag link are not same length but do a nice job of staying parallel.

 

[Mike Shull]

These are the build tires, but I had already flexed it out with an actual tire mounted on a rim. It’s close all around but everything clears, for the most part. All the compromises come together.
Everything clears except for my street worthy single shear steering arm, at driver full droop/passenger full stuff. I’ll have to get some of those fancy knuckles one day, solve a couple of problems.
View attachment 3733819
You can see drag link hitting with still a half inch of rod still showing.
Panhard and drag link are not same length but do a nice job of staying parallel.

Hello. I lost notifications on this thread so I think that I’m up to speed, but I may have missed some content.

I agree with Cruisermatt’s and Firemedic831’s advice. And you are in great hands with the advice from Accutune. Another reason that you want those coilovers to be angled outwards towards the wheel, and other alluded to this, is for stability and dampening. I would highly recommend practicing and sharpening your welding technique before welding to those C’s if you decide to move your lower mounts outwards. I welded to mine and I’m happy with it, though they were a little more technical to weld to. Mine are different than yours as mine are from Reid.

It probably goes without saying but I made the mistake of not having the body on when I built my front suspension. If you haven’t done so already, throw your fenders on and cycle your suspension to see if you have the space to articulate up as far as you have pictured. If your situation is like mine, you might find, depending on what fender you are running, that your tire will hit the fender before that drag link hits the frame, and my fenders are 4-5” higher than stock. Given this, it looks like your drag link is a little higher at the wheel than mine. I used the double sheer set up like it looks like you have and I lowered my drag link a bit to get more upward articulation. I worked really hard to get my front to articulate up 6” but was limited to 4.5” with the fenders.

My drag link and tie rod are within 1/2” of each other on distance, and exactly the same angle and it drives amazing. I was doing freeway speeds over the weekend and it felt much like driving a 90’s Chevy short bed truck—straight and easy to control at 75mph. I do have minor bump steer however, which is a bit milder than a stock 4Runner when you hit a VERY large bump on the highway and the front slides over a bit. The same effect would be on the rear of a 4runner because that is where the Panhard is located.

Keep doing your homework and dial it in as much as you are comfortable with, then follow your own advice and move onto the next. The quicker that you get this thing on the road the quicker that you’ll be able to test your suspension configuration. It’s not that fun taking things apart after it has been put together, but that’s the only way I know how to make sure that it will work besides the obvious clearance and configuration issues, which I know you’ll iron out soon

 

[Ditcherman]

Hello. I lost notifications on this thread so I think that I’m up to speed, but I may have missed some content.

I agree with Cruisermatt’s and Firemedic831’s advice. And you are in great hands with the advice from Accutune. Another reason that you want those coilovers to be angled outwards towards the wheel, and other alluded to this, is for stability and dampening. I would highly recommend practicing and sharpening your welding technique before welding to those C’s if you decide to move your lower mounts outwards. I welded to mine and I’m happy with it, though they were a little more technical to weld to. Mine are different than yours as mine are from Reid.

It probably goes without saying but I made the mistake of not having the body on when I built my front suspension. If you haven’t done so already, throw your fenders on and cycle your suspension to see if you have the space to articulate up as far as you have pictured. If your situation is like mine, you might find, depending on what fender you are running, that your tire will hit the fender before that drag link hits the frame, and my fenders are 4-5” higher than stock. Given this, it looks like your drag link is a little higher at the wheel than mine. I used the double sheer set up like it looks like you have and I lowered my drag link a bit to get more upward articulation. I worked really hard to get my front to articulate up 6” but was limited to 4.5” with the fenders.

My drag link and tie rod are within 1/2” of each other on distance, and exactly the same angle and it drives amazing. I was doing freeway speeds over the weekend and it felt much like driving a 90’s Chevy short bed truck—straight and easy to control at 75mph. I do have minor bump steer however, which is a bit milder than a stock 4Runner when you hit a VERY large bump on the highway and the front slides over a bit. The same effect would be on the rear of a 4runner because that is where the Panhard is located.

Keep doing your homework and dial it in as much as you are comfortable with, then follow your own advice and move onto the next. The quicker that you get this thing on the road the quicker that you’ll be able to test your suspension configuration. It’s not that fun taking things apart after it has been put together, but that’s the only way I know how to make sure that it will work besides the obvious clearance and configuration issues, which I know you’ll iron out soon

Thanks Mike.
Fenders are Aqualu wide, so same pattern as OEM as far as height.
I’ve pretty much modeled this whole build around the 40 body, radiator and evaporator to firewall on back, including fender placement. I have a 12” coilover, with 5” rod showing at ride, and I have about 9” of wheel up travel before the coil bottoms out with the other side at full droop, and the coil bottoms out right before the links hit the frame. So I feel pretty good about all that. Fenders are clear too

I’m compromising on the panhard and that’s that! (For now,haha)

^full stuff, all tucks in nicely.

I have decided to compromise on the shock lean-in issue; I’m going to cut the tub and lean the rears in because I do not want to do that after it’s finished, and I can pretty easily accomplish it with the existing hoops, just move the mount to opposite side and cut the tub for just the coil, not the whole hoop, which appeals to me much more. Just to be on the safe side, which you won’t hear me say very often
The front end will be much easier to do after it’s all put together so I’m going to let that go, but I have confidence after mapping the travel as Accutune instructed that they will make it work as is. That C sure looks like cast to me and I really don’t anything to do with welding that structurally.

Appreciate your encouragement and everyone in here chiming in.

 

[Mike Shull]

Thanks Mike.
Fenders are Aqualu wide, so same pattern as OEM as far as height.
I’ve pretty much modeled this whole build around the 40 body, radiator and evaporator to firewall on back, including fender placement. I have a 12” coilover, with 5” rod showing at ride, and I have about 9” of wheel up travel before the coil bottoms out with the other side at full droop, and the coil bottoms out right before the links hit the frame. So I feel pretty good about all that. Fenders are clear too

I’m compromising on the panhard and that’s that! (For now,haha)
View attachment 3734125
^full stuff, all tucks in nicely.

I have decided to compromise on the shock lean-in issue; I’m going to cut the tub and lean the rears in because I do not want to do that after it’s finished, and I can pretty easily accomplish it with the existing hoops, just move the mount to opposite side and cut the tub for just the coil, not the whole hoop, which appeals to me much more. Just to be on the safe side, which you won’t hear me say very often
The front end will be much easier to do after it’s all put together so I’m going to let that go, but I have confidence after mapping the travel as Accutune instructed that they will make it work as is. That C sure looks like cast to me and I really don’t anything to do with welding that structurally.

Appreciate your encouragement and everyone in here chiming in.

I like the plan. I’ve had my front apart a few times to redo a few things. Piece of cake. I’d like to pull my tub back off to add more triangulation to the rear frame notch but, as you suggested, that is a lot more work. I’m going to see how it holds up and address later if needed.

Your panhard stuffs up in there! The C is cast and they should be preheated and cooled properly when welding to prevent cracking and provide for a solid weld. I heated mine up to 650°F before I installed them and welded them to the axle, and I was only able to get them to 400°F when I attached my lower shock mounts. I also used a torch to keep the heat on them, gradually decreasing the heat to 200°F, then I let it naturally cool from there. I’m no expert and some of those steps may have been unnecessary so do your homework and follow what seems best for you.

Keep up the progress.