Builds fj60 going to EV FJ45 (2 Viewers)

[workingdog]

Okay, more updates.

This solder joint broke

So, I got out my soldering iron and went to solder it, not realizing it was still on and it appears I fried both this can adapter and the battery management system can bus. I'm waiting for a new can adapter to show up. So, that was a disappointment. All work on the drivetrain has stopped until I get canbus working again.

Also, in our enthusiasm, we mounted the manual steering box in the wrong place. The drag link on the Gladiator axle as a specific geometry so it stays out of the way of the track bar, tie rod, and the rest of the suspension while the axle is moving. So, I'm having fun cutting that off so I can put it back on again 4" farther out the frame horn.

 

[workingdog]

looking for help around rules/guidelines for PARALLEL four link systems. I know them for triangulate 4 link, does anything change? I would think it would. Lowers = tire diameter, uppers = 70% of lowers. top bars about horizontal, bottom bars about 10 degree up to frame. Vertical separation is already set. Horizontal separation is set but not really relevant since we're not creating a triangle. The axle side upper mounts on the front are slightly inboard, but the rears are fully outboard. The set of stock arms I have is considerably shorter than what the 'guidelines' would suggest.

Also, I'd read a few places that parallel link setups the bars should be parallel. But that was for racing. Couldn't find any more.

 

[DangerNoodle]

Like any link system, the flatter the links are, the better. I'd work in as much vertical separation as possible for the tire size. Upper and lower length differences determines the amount the pinion will pivot when articulating. 70% keeps the pinion relatively flat, 100% keeps the pinion pointing at the driveshaft. This is much more important in the front, as any bumps will cause funky steering forces if the pinion doesn't remain flat. Is this a front or rear system?

 

[workingdog]

Well, both. Or one of each. What about length. The stock links are quite short, but I have johnny joints and DOM and Heims to make longer links. Here are the rear links, the lower link is a foot lower than I'd normally do. And there's no problem making a lower link a foot longer, there plenty of space along the frame. Then that would also make the upper link about a foot longer.

here are the rear upper and lower axle mounts for the rear. the low mount at the bottom of the frame is the shock mount.

here are the axle side link mounts for the front. Uppers are more inboard. Lower link is the mount facing down, the one facing up is for hte shock.

It's not a huge amount of vertical separation, but it's enough.

 

[DangerNoodle]

Why not try to at a minimum get a single triangulation in? It would prevent needing a panhard.

 

[workingdog]

I could probably triangulate the lowers front and back, Just need a cross member for each.

 

[DangerNoodle]

If you arent planning on wheeling hard, that is what I would do. The single triangulation will give axle steer though.

 

[workingdog]

Okay, I looked closer. It's going to be a lot more work to fully triangulate one set than to do the panhard bars, because the axle side of the panhard is already done front and back. Jeep went parallel 4 link, I'd like to understand enough about the geometry to make that work - since it's so much easier.

 

[DangerNoodle]

Okay, I looked closer. It's going to be a lot more work to fully triangulate one set than to do the panhard bars, because the axle side of the panhard is already done front and back. Jeep went parallel 4 link, I'd like to understand enough about the geometry to make that work - since it's so much easier.

It's the same as any other link system, but the 4 links only stop the axle from rotating, not holding it laterally. Its basically a 3 link with an extra upper link.

 

[Tank5]

When I built my parallel 4 link with pan hard bar on my 45 I just copied the 80 series suspension. I used a stock 80 series sitting on level ground and measured all the angles of the control arms, pan hard bar and Pinion. I made sure the frame and axles were positioned at the same ride height distance. Then just tacked it all together to get the same angle measurements. I expect your wheel base is about 4 inches longer than an 80, so you might need to some adjustments.

Disclaimer: I don’t know anything about setting up a 4 link outside of what I suggested and watched on Utube, so my logic could be off. My own project has not been driven yet and could be a basket case.

 

[NightFury]

A parallel 4 link with a panhard is going to have the same basic rules of thumb for link lengths and separation as a triangulated 4 link.

• Link separation at the axle of about 25% of tire diameter.
• Upper links about level at ride height
• Lower links around the same length as tire diameter. Another common rule is that they should be 2-3 times the wheel travel in length.
• Upper Links should be at least 75% of lowers.
  • Longer upper links will be better for pinion angle since shorter links will cause the pinion to angle downward with travel (the less travel you have the less the difference in length will matter though)
• Similar length upper and lower links will keep the pinion and caster angles relatively fixed throughout travel and is good for the front suspension.
• Your upper link frame mounts are going to be the best place to add in adjustment with multiple mounting holes
  • small positional changes here have a larger effect on handling than any other mounting point
• If you go with triangulation, the typical rule of thumb is to try for at least 40° of total triangulation (i.e. 30° upper and 10° lower) but more is better
• Pinion angle change of less than ±4° is also prefered

Some things that are unique to a panhard bar suspension:

• Try and get your panhard bar as high up as you can.
  • The center of the panhard bar is the roll center of that end of the vehicle
  • The vehicle roll axis is the line between the front and rear roll centers and is the line that the vehicle will roll about when cornering or driving on the side of a hill (i.e. higher roll center = less body roll without using antiroll bars)
• In the front you want the panhard bar and steering drag link to be parallel and roughly the same length to minimize bump steer.
• The longer your panhard bar is the less side shift your axle will have throughout its travel (longer=better)

This is a really good resource for deciding how you want your suspension to handle: CRAWLpidia - 4-Link Suspension Guide

They do a better job of explaining how different values of anti-squat and anti-dive affect the vehicle and what they are best for than I could.
Basically at or around 100% anti-squat/dive is pretty good for an all purpose vehicle and around 80% will be good for a smooth riding trail running vehicle.

When I was going through the design process for the suspension in my FJ40 I added a bunch of functionality to the 4 link calculator that has been floating around the web (originally made by a guy named Dan Barcroft). This excel file probably shows way more info than you'll actually want, but it can be a huge help in figuring out what to expect from the suspension you are building. I saved the excel doc set up for a panhard bar suspension in the front and rear to help get you started. Here is a link to the file: Linked Suspension Calculator

One final note, most people tend to only really look at the suspension characteristics for a single point in the travel (ride height), but knowing what your suspension is doing throughout its travel is also very important to getting a predictable vehicle that handles well when the suspension is compressed or extended from road conditions or hauling extra weight. With this in mind, I recommend looking at the travel plots tab and making sure that your anti-dive/squat values don't change to drastically throughout your travel.

Hope this helps. Let me know if you have any questions and I will do my best to help.

-Travis

 

[DangerNoodle]

Here is a really good video on how to set up a panhard.




Longer is not always better, it all revolves around how it is set up. I personally would never try to set my panhard as high as possible. I would base it completely around keeping it as equal to the drag link for the front, or as mathematicaly best for the rear. You don't need a long panhard to keep travel low. The biggest factor for the front is matching the drag link angle, height, and length as closely as possible to reduce bump steer, as you will be affected by that the most when driving.

 

[workingdog]

@NightFury - thanks so much, that is exactly what I needed to know.
@DangerNoodle - great video.

On my 40, I was able to get close with everything, it's fully triangulated, but you can never get it perfect because of packaging.
People say just copy someone else, but there are always differences that make that impractical.

So, out of curiosity, why are the stock links so damn short compared to what 'rule of thumb' says?

 

[workingdog]

So, looked again. I can triangulate the uppers in the rear. I'd need a truss for the link mounts, but it looks like it works pretty well. So, I'm looking for a truss. Artec's for the JT seems too light for link mounts, only 3/16ths. Northridge 4x4's site says the EVO won't fit the Gladiator, but it has to be close, it says all dana 44 rears.

EVO Manufacturing Protek Rear Axle Truss

Reinforce the rear axle of the Jeep JK with the Protek Rear Axle Truss.

www.northridge4x4.com

Setting the top link more or less level to the frame means I should be able to get my battery box down about 5" from where it is. The frame side upper link mounts would be the support for the front of the battery box frame. I have to confirm clearance of the battery box with the driveshaft, but I think we're okay. So, that means the battery box is only 5" above the highest part of the frame rail, which is hopefully inside the side rails of the flat bed we're going to have to eventually build and install. Norweld is over 12 months out on a flat bed, and this one is going to have some unique requirements. like, it has to be able to get out of the way so I can get at the battery box.

 

[workingdog]

So, I'm finally getting back on this. I blew up the canbus when I touched a connector with a soldering iron. It took out the Orion BMS - which I now have repaired and back. I can get it and the Elcon charger and the SCM online to manage the battery pack. But, I can't get the Hyper 9 controllers back online (or the little display). So, I probably blew them up too, but couldn't tell without the Orion present. So, I'm going to have to send them back, which is going to be a massive pain in the ass.

I'm also ready to start tacking links in place. I have a bunch of stuff from Currie. I'm going to try to triangulate the back - but I need a truss over the diff for link mounts, but I'm having a hard time finding one. I could build one, but it would save me a day and a lot of frustration if I could find one. People are 4 linking the rears of gladiators, so there has to be something out there.

 

[workingdog]

Okay, for anyone reading this in the future and wanted to know what worked, it's been interesting. Last night, with the Orion BMS online and the system charging, the Hyper 9's would not connect.

This morning the Orion BMS was shut down because the charge protocol didn't execute correctly and some relay got triggered. And, with the BMS locke up and disconnected, the Hyper 9's came right up. I cleared the fault on the Orion, and it came back up, but the Hyper 9's went down. So, after some thinking, I added a leg between the canadapter (that connects the laptop to the canbus) and the 2 hyper 9's. And now it's all happy. So now, the canbus topology is [Orion - canadapter - 2 hyper 9 controllers - Elcon charger] and that seems to work. The Orion and the Elcon have resistors and have to be 'at the ends'.

I spun the motor once, expecting the tail shaft of the transmission to turn. But, it did not. But the transmission is probably in neutral. I can hear it, I assume I'm spinning the clutch. However, a wire came out of the Prius throttle and caused a fault. That stopped the Hyper 9's from turning. One of many 'blocking' and 'stopping' faults it can throw which don't clear when the problem is fixed. The only way to clear faults is to turn power on and off. If the car won't move, I'm not sure how I'm going to know what the fault is. I'm going to have to have a laptop in the cab and a clear top on the hyper 9 box so I can see the LEDs.

So, next is to do some clean up on the canbus and control wiring - and onto the links.

 

[GLTHFJ60]

Instead of a laptop, can you load the diag software on a tablet and mount that? I'd think a tablet would be more conducive for road/trail diagnosis than a full laptop.

 

[workingdog]

That's a good suggestion. I hate typing on tablets, but it might be easier - there's not actually a lot of typing involved. I have a couple of iPads here. Not sure the software runs on IOS. I'll look into a rugged tablet.

 

[workingdog]

So, I'll post pictures in a bit. but I have the truss and upper links in the back so I can full triangulate uppers. The lowers will still be parallel.

In front, I really would like to triangulate as well. And I might be able to if I buy the Artec truss (same brand as I used in the back), abandon the 'link posts' on the front axle, but I have to look more at the interference issues. It seems like it should be okay, the upper link should move with the drive shaft. In front, the lower links will be parallel if I use the stock lower link mount, but I could move then 6" farther out and get a little bit of in angle on them if they land at the frame - 10 degrees? Is it worth it? Or I could do a lot more work, build a cross member at the end of the electric motors, and integrate lower links into that. Again, have to look at front drive shaft clearance.

I'm also trying to wrap my head around sizing the coilovers. I have some Fox 12" travel 3" coils. They are just a little long for the space I have. If I were to put them as is, I'd have 3" of up-travel. But, I don't have the cab and fenders on to really know if I have 1 or 2 more inches of height available.

RockJock sway bars front and rear for sure. The rear one should go in pretty easy behind the axel. The front one will have to go behind the axel as well, through the frame and right under the motors. Another thing to keep in mind while looking at front links.

 

[workingdog]

Here's the rear link setup. Just have to make sure the axle is centered both directions, the pinion angle is correct, and I'll measure the DOM and make the links. Links are the 37" I would have preferred, but they are a lot longer than the stock links and the panhard goes away. I should be able to get 5" of up travel, which will allow me to lower the batter box 3" at least. Top of battery box drives flatbed deck height. And that drives coilover length. Coilover with 12" of travel 2" width with 5" of up travel has 7" of down. I think that will work.

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