Fj60 fuel injection conversion (2 Viewers)

[MoaByte]

Good stuff @Seth S . I doubt that any header would perform much better on these I6's then the 3FE exhaust manifold.
Are there any issues with bolting up a 2F intake to the 3F head? I understand that parts for the 3F EFI are getting hard to source. Are there issues with running the 3F distributor on that system?

 

[Seth S]

Good stuff @Seth S . I doubt that any header would perform much better on these I6's then the 3FE exhaust manifold.
Are there any issues with bolting up a 2F intake to the 3F head? I understand that parts for the 3F EFI are getting hard to source. Are there issues with running the 3F distributor on that system?

I dont think there is on the 3F head. The 3FE head has the relieve for the fuel injectors so you would have to make sure that area sealed.

 

[SteveH]

A 3F distributor will drop right into a 2F block - my AFI EFI system (on my '78 FJ40) uses a (internally modified) 3F-E distributor to run the ignition and computer.

 

[Seth S]

You could mega squirt a 3fe if the Toyota system became hard to source parts for.

 

[Stumpalama]

A 3F distributor will drop right into a 2F block - my AFI EFI system (on my '78 FJ40) uses a (internally modified) 3F-E distributor to run the ignition and computer.

Curious what the internal modifications were... I'm supposing a 3FE dizzy on a 2F with a Sniper is not feasible, given the electronic advance on the 3FE dizzy not being compatible with the sniper electronic timing signal.

 

[elripster]

Engines are just air pumps. The more efficiently they can pull air in and push it out the better power they can produce. Tune intake and exhaust will always help an engine though the design used will affect different parts of the RPM range. Headers are nice because they look cool, they do flow better than the stock log exhaust, and depending on their design they could benefit multiple rpm ranges.

Me personally I' don't want to spend the money on headers but for those like me the 3FE manifolds are a fantastic compromise as you can usually find a set in the $100 or less range and they do flow a lot better than the stock log.

I was helping a friend change his intake/exhaust gaskets this weekend and was noting just how awful the 2F design really is. Not only is the intake and exhaust poorly optimized for flow the but the exhaust, because it bolts to the intake, is superheating the air prior to entry. That is very bad for power and efficiency. Really it just creates more oxides of nitrogen, which the engine combats with loads of EGR - which saps more power... just a vicious circle all to reduce cold start emissions. So just going to a header or 3fe exhaust manifold will not only improve flow but should reduce intake heat all of which will help the 2F produce torque at a higher RPM = more power.

Frank

 

[MoaByte]

I was helping a friend change his intake/exhaust gaskets this weekend and was noting just how awful the 2F design really is. Not only is the intact and exhaust poorly optimized for flow the but the exhaust, because it bolts to the intake, is superheating the air prior to entry. That is very bad for power and efficiency. Really it just creates more oxides of nitrogen, which the engine combats with loads of EGR - which saps more power... just a viscous circle all to reduce cold start emissions. So just going to a header or 3fe exhaust manifold will not only improve flow but should reduce intake heat all of which will help the 2F produce torque at a higher RPM = more power.

Frank

I always heard that it expanded the air/fuel to make it more efficient. But that is with a carb. 2F is not very efficient.

 

[elripster]

Warmer air helps with cold start emissions but otherwise it reduces the density of the air and promotes detonation and NOx production (higher combustion temps). The reason folks like cold air intakes (snorkels do this) is that denser air makes for a stronger explosion and so more power / efficiency. Cooler air can also allow for more aggressive timing curves which can also help with power/ eff at higher RPM's.




Frank

 

[Seth S]

Keep in mind that the 2f is an industrial engine intended for things like fork trucks. It’s an old design but incredibly reliable. No timing belts or chains to fail. The most minimal of electronics. Mechanical wherever possible. It’s also designed to run at very low rpms where air flow is much less critical.

 

[elripster]

Temp is what it is. Although inlet temps are likely to be higher at low air flow rates where it spends more time in the manifold. In fact, detonation, which increases with high inlet temps, is worse at low RPMs - the only place the engine can run with such restrictive intake/exhaust. Thus, being able to cool the manifold helps that much more. It also turns out that the roots of the 2F are actually not in an industrial engine.. It's a near carbon copy of the Chevy stovebolt straight 6. Sure it got used in tractors, etc... but its roots go way back to an on road vehicle. from the 50's.

Of course we are in this thread because it is not only painfully underpowered but it consumes an insane amount of fuel for its displacement. Before emissions it was likely better but after all the emissions band aides it just sucks. Separating the exhaust from the intake is a good step in improving torque across the band and thus power.

Frank

 

[Seth S]

My dad had a Ford econoline van with the Ford 300 inline six and manual trans. My recollection is that it got about 15 mpg. It was also carbed and also the non crossflow manifold setup so common to older engines of the day.

a fun to think about project of mine (that I never have any intention of doing) is building up a 2H engine with new pistons and cam to run gas. The challenge of course being whether there is enough material in the head to put a spark plug in . I have seen propane conversion kits for diesels that actually use a long skinny probe to deliver spark in place of the glow plug...though with some diesel designs I have no idea how well that works. But the 2H being a crossflow head is what the idea stems from. I’d try it if I had a pile of old engines Laying around. Which I do t

 

[elripster]

That would be fun indeed. A cross flow like the 1FZ is definitely more ideal.

Knarf

 

[Dr. John]

Curious what the internal modifications were... I'm supposing a 3FE dizzy on a 2F with a Sniper is not feasible, given the electronic advance on the 3FE dizzy not being compatible with the sniper electronic timing signal.

Well....IF a 3FE dizzy WILL drop into a 2F, you wouldn't be able to utilize the electronic advance anyways. You would just set the advance manually, and use the Sniper without using the Sniper electronic advance. I'm just supposing here. I'm using a D.U.I. distributor with the Sniper, in manual mode....not using the Sniper auto advance.. Again,...this a tractor, not an LS.

 

[elripster]

I am using a DUI too in my 2F, even passed smog in Cali with it. I like it over the stock unit.

Frank

 

[Stumpalama]

Well....IF a 3FE dizzy WILL drop into a 2F, you wouldn't be able to utilize the electronic advance anyways. You would just set the advance manually, and use the Sniper without using the Sniper electronic advance. I'm just supposing here. I'm using a D.U.I. distributor with the Sniper, in manual mode....not using the Sniper auto advance.. Again,...this a tractor, not an LS.

Well, @SteveH said he is using a 3F dizzy,...
I know the internals of a 2F dizzy well, but never had the need to go beyond the cap and rotor on my 3FE dizzy, so I don't know what would be needed to adjust the advance of a 3FE dizzy, or if it's even possible. I just have a good 3FE dizzy and was curious if it would be a viable option.

 

[SteveH]

@Stumpalama - On the AFI TBI deal, the AFI folks mill away most of the reluctor teeth out of the 3F-E distributor such that only 6 teeth are left, and use it to trigger the spark. I think the GM computer handles spark advance. So, this modified 3F-E dist. is pretty 'dumb' as far as advancing functions.

 

[elripster]

So I installed 3FE manifolds on my 2F. I also have the DUI distributor. I had a 3FE / H55 swapped 60 for many, many years. I can say that with this combination, the 2F / H55 feels very much like the 3FE / H55. The 2F has gained 1k of useful RPM. That's key for around town drivability because you get the longer pull through the H55's extra low first gear.

I found the fittings to adapt a flexible propane gas tube to get the M26 truck ports to mate to the 3/4" ports to maintain EGR. I have not yet made it to the smog shop but am hoping I pass again.

Amazon product ASIN B08WJ542YM
Fittings...

ThreadToolSupply.com -

The 3FE has a major design flaw in that they had to squash the block to make it fit with that big intake tube passing over the top of it. That put the connecting rod to crank angles in suboptimal positions through the stroke. If you search there have been some good write ups on it on mud. Improving the 2Fs ability to breath means more torque across the RPM band.

Frank

 

[1911]

The 3FE has a major design flaw in that they had to squash the block to make it fit with that big intake tube passing over the top of it.

The block is shorter than a 2F because the 3F (including the 3FE) is a de-stroked 2F, which they did to nudge rpm and hence hp up a bit.

 

[elripster]

You don't shorten the block to produce more power at the expense of crank angle. That's just shooting yourself in the engineering foot. Proper boring and destroking would maintain proper crank angle and maybe shorten the block. Just as an example, the 3FE's pistons protrude unusually far at the bottom of stroke. It's part of why the 3FE still has awful power and efficiency compared to other engines of that era with similar displacement. This is also likely why those who go the 2FE route often comment that engine configuration is the engine Toyota should have built. Maybe Toyota wanted to save weight/cost since 2FE's still fit under the hood but it's not an ideal engine by any means.

Getting back to the subject at hand, fuel injection, if I could increase the intake flow I suspect I can get more out of the engine. Since I am in Komifornia I am stuck with emissions so unless I go 2FE and get it through the bar as an engine change I am stuck with the carb.

Frank