EATON M90 vs 1FEFZ ENGINE

[SUMOTOY]

EATON M90 vs 1FZFE ENGINE

Ok boys and gals:
To really put the turbo vs sc debate to numbers, let's take a gander at what TRD did on the M90 kit. Using a 3.2" pulley, the SC drive ratio is 2.40625. That puts max SC speed of 12,031rpm at 5000 engine rpm. For engine cfm flow I used a typical roller coaster type ramp on the spreadsheet with 100% Volumetric efficiency at peak torque, and 85% VE at peak HP, with 80% min.

The results indicate that this M90 is matched almost exactly with the engine demands at 7psi (1.5Pressure Ratio). Picking a couple of points, here's what I get.

1000 eng rpm = 2406 SC rpm = 096cfm engine demand = 100cfm SC

2500 eng rpm = 6016 SC rpm = 230cfm engine demand = 230cfm SC

4000 eng rpm = 9625 SC rpm = 408cfm engine demand = 430cfm SC

5000 eng rpm = 12031 SC rpm = 480cfm engine demand = 530cfm SC


The maximum HP draw at 1.5PR BTW is 7hp at 1000 eng rpm, and 33hp at 5000 eng rpm. Volumetric efficiency offsets that in a big way, the starts at 70% at 1700rpm engine speed and increases to 90% at 5000rpm engine speed.

What do I make of all this? The M90 in stock trim is about as well matched to a compressor in terms of demand and efficiency as one could find. Put another way, you could spend several fortunes on turbos and never get close to this kind of match, btdt. Change the target boost however, the turbo starts to gain back it's deficit.

That reaffirms my conclusion that the SC isn't the problem on the dyno, it's a IC/fuel/timing/exhaust (read: ancillary) problem.

HTH

Scott Justusson
QSHIPQ Performance Tuning
Chicago IL
94 FZJ80 Supercharged

 

[Waggoner5]

BUT....there are turbo kits out there where there has been thousands spent on R&D coming up with similar boost numbers and more power.

 

[Rookie2]

That reaffirms my conclusion that the SC isn't the problem on the dyno, it's a IC/fuel/timing/exhaust (read: ancillary) problem.

What's the big hurdle in putting an IC on these SC's? To hard to integrate with the SC, carb compliance...? What it appears you are saying, is that if you could intercool and tune a bit, the SC in theory would out perform the typical turbo's because they aren't well matched to this large of a displacement motor.

 

[airlaird]

Then someone needs to make a damn Intrecooler for the S/C...it's well overdue.
airlaird

 

[SUMOTOY]

BUT....there are turbo kits out there where there has been thousands spent on R&D coming up with similar boost numbers and more power.

I say where is that true? W5, I just went thru all the turbo combinations from Garrett, and there just isn't one that matches the I6 engine that I can find that's even close to the M90. You want to tell me that AVO and Safari did 'custom' turbos? Ok, but even a custom turbo has a given hot side. Again, I can go thru any turbo application and not find similar flow numbers. The problem is two fold. First, low boost and big turbos on big engines never mix well, never have. The GT40 is too big to run 7psi, it's designed application is to run the 1FZFE at 16psi. The GT35 is too small to flow the air out the turbine.

There are "kits out there that have similar boost numbers and more power". That's not a turbo application, that's an ancillary application.

Look, if you haven't raised the demand for air (effective displacement), the demand for air at 7psi is the demand for air at 7psi. You can say that the SC has parasitic draw, but a mismatched turbo will make that a non issue, btdt.

I'm sure this is only the beginning of a long standing debate. But, as a turbo guy, I look at these numbers from the M90 and the 1FZFE engine, and think any turbo application has a monumental task associated with 'outperforming' the M90. Intercoolers and fuel/timing tables so noted. The kit might, the hardware will have a much tougher time at 7psi.

I really don't think there is any disagreement, the numbers are pretty objective and repeatable.

SJ

 

[SUMOTOY]

What's the big hurdle in putting an IC on these SC's? To hard to integrate with the SC, carb compliance...? What it appears you are saying, is that if you could intercool and tune a bit, the SC in theory would out perform the typical turbo's because they aren't well matched to this large of a displacement motor.

That's exactly what I've been saying for a long time. Intercoolers aren't hard to make carb compliant, I really think this was a cost and complexity issue.

Another project for my 80, after I get the fuel done and the fans done. Maybe at the end of race season. I have a couple of cores that will fit in the TJM bumper that appears to be the best application.

SJ

 

[Rich]

The roots of the TRD supercharged Land Cruiser:

I had my unichip installed today at a Porsche shop and it pretty much took care of my detonation problems. The most amazing thing besides having a Landcruiser at a Porsche shop is that I met the person who designed the TRD/Kazuma supercharger in the flesh, he happens to be racer and Porsche racing team engineer, he looked under the hood and told me that he design it and sold it to TRD. TRD test drove the prototype cruiser vehicle and said we must have it!! The original design had a intercooler and 7th injector setup which they changed to cut the cost (argggg!!) he mentions that it put out over 400 HP and it cooled the temperature in the chamber by 80 degrees.

...the 7th injector went in the adapter coming from the manifold (part of the TRD S/C )...6 psi of boost...

 

[Waggoner5]

I say where is that true? W5, I just went thru all the turbo combinations from Garrett, and there just isn't one that matches the I6 engine that I can find that's even close to the M90. You want to tell me that AVO and Safari did 'custom' turbos? Ok, but even a custom turbo has a given hot side. Again, I can go thru any turbo application and not find similar flow numbers. The problem is two fold. First, low boost and big turbos on big engines never mix well, never have. The GT40 is too big to run 7psi, it's designed application is to run the 1FEFZ at 16psi. The GT35 is too small to flow the air out the turbine.

There are "kits out there that have similar boost numbers and more power". That's not a turbo application, that's an ancillary application.

Look, if you haven't raised the demand for air (effective displacement), the demand for air at 7psi is the demand for air at 7psi. You can say that the SC has parasitic draw, but a mismatched turbo will make that a non issue, btdt.

I'm sure this is only the beginning of a long standing debate. But, as a turbo guy, I look at these numbers from the M90 and the 1FEFZ engine, and think any turbo application has a monumental task associated with 'outperforming' the M90. Intercoolers and fuel/timing tables so noted. The kit might, the hardware will have a much tougher time at 7psi.

I really don't think there is any disagreement, the numbers are pretty objective and repeatable.

SJ

I don't mean this in a negative way at all, but I think you are one of those guys that is sooooo smart that he has the ability to pick apart any technical issue. Although its Greek to 99% of the readers, you do make your points. Here are the facts behind my statements. The turbo kit Christo sells has similar boost levels and makes way more power than the TRD supercharger kit. This is a fact, not an educated guess. Same truck, same dyno, same weather conditions, both essentially bolt on kits. Now before you get all up in my Koolaid, let me say this. The turbo kit does have an intercooler, and because of this, and tuning, the truck made significantly more TQ/HP. There is no doubt in my mind that you could extract bigger numbers from the TRD system and/or the turbo system, but we are talking about kit to kit. By the way, I think its awesome that you did all that research to secure the knowledge that TRD did a great job with the M90. I agree with you 100%.

 

[sleeoffroad]

There are "kits out there that have similar boost numbers and more power". That's not a turbo application, that's an ancillary application.

I really don't think there is any disagreement, the numbers are pretty objective and repeatable.

SJ

I am really trying to understand this?

 

[sleeoffroad]

You want to tell me that AVO and Safari did 'custom' turbos?

Safari was a custom casting on the exhaust side. I know the Safari turbo is not the same as the unit AVO uses, however I would bet my bottom dollar that even the Safari will outperform the TRD on a kit by kit basis.

That is until we are going to see the ST-TRD kit

 

[Rookie2]

Anymore info on how this 7th injector is installed and integrated into the fuel system? Sounds complicated.

 

[SUMOTOY]

I don't mean this in a negative way at all, but I think you are one of those guys that is sooooo smart that he has the ability to pick apart any technical issue.... There is no doubt in my mind that you could extract bigger numbers from the TRD system and/or the turbo system, but we are talking about kit to kit. By the way, I think its awesome that you did all that research to secure the knowledge that TRD did a great job with the M90. I agree with you 100%.

W5, I'm an idiot with a lot of experience in forced induction theory and application, that's it. I suspect gnx7 has a lot too... I think we need to speak to psi to psi, pick your tweeks. THE limiting factor on the 1FZFE is pressure ratio. Beyond 1.5PR, you start majorly picking up the pace in terms of dollars required to keep the motor together.

Dan's price on a SC kit is ~3500USD (Dan?), that appears to give a LOT of money to spend on ancillaries compared to any turbo kit out there. Whatever you 'think' about turbos, the compressor vs demand on the M90 will be next to (if not just plain) impossible to match with any turbo. You already have the 1 day DIY bolt on 7psi. Another 3 large should easily buy you all the fuel, and big ole IC, and have enough left over to do the exhaust up right in 304SS.

My trailing question as the really smart dumb guy? Why hasn't someone done all this before? It's not rocket science, it's simple stuff. TRD does things to other kits, but not this one. I can see why in terms of boost, getting more boost kicks you out of the M90 almost immediately. I don't see why in terms of fuel and IC? Maybe another cost vs marketing thing.

W5, I've seen your work, and enjoy the art. I've seen Christos work and enjoy the art. Here, this isn't a debate, this is just plain numbers that don't add up right. I'm working into this slowly to hopefully avoid causing massive frustration. My goal is to demistify the hype and testimonials.

The above partially shared SC table I've had for quite some time, I've also completely designed a single turbo and a dual turbo application for the 1FZFE. I threw down the SC table and some thoughts on turbo applciations as a starting point to generate thinking, not anger. Pick apart? No, I'm looking at what TRD delivered *as a turbo guy* and know that any turbo application will be a really tough comparo, even with the single dyno sheet that exists.

I'm also well seasoned to advocating performance customers be much smarter in their decision making process. Many times I also just do what I'm told. But it isn't for lack of trying the education part.

I'm used to the controversy and personal attacks that approach may generate.

Cheers

SJ

 

[SUMOTOY]

Safari was a custom casting on the exhaust side. I know the Safari turbo is not the same as the unit AVO uses, however I would bet my bottom dollar that even the Safari will outperform the TRD on a kit by kit basis.

That is until we are going to see the ST-TRD kit

hehe. Safari kit at the Carb authorized 4.5psi Christo, or as delivered out of the box? Including the TO4E Garrett trubo?

ST

 

[SUMOTOY]

I am really trying to understand this?

See post 18


SJ

 

[firetruck41]

SUMOTOY- It's 1FZ-FE, not 1FEFZ, IIRC.

 

[SUMOTOY]

Anymore info on how this 7th injector is installed and integrated into the fuel system? Sounds complicated.

I don't like add on injectors. Spend the time to dial in the fuel pressure regulator and injector size. Add on injectors work, but they were really designed for TBI and CIS engines.

SJ

 

[concretejungle]

Sumo, could you please define "ancillary" for me? You have used that word a lot and i'm not sure i understand it's real meaning.

 

[SUMOTOY]

Sumo, could you please define "ancillary" for me? You have used that word a lot and i'm not sure i understand it's real meaning.

Everything added after bolting on the turbo or SC hardware (read: IC, exhaust, Fuel/timing mods, 7the injector, etc)

SJ

 

[Waggoner5]

I'm used to the controversy and personal attacks that approach may generate.

Cheers

SJ

There we no personal attacks here from me or anger in any way, only trying to understand the mumbo jumbo. As far turbos go, I am obviously way behind you and Mark technically speaking, but my first one was my homemade kit in 1979 on a 20R in my truck with 36" tires, alcohol injection and dial-a boost. A little bubba, I agree. An old buddy of mine Price Cobb helped out a little. He worked for Cartech in the 70s. My turbo language stops there although Corky Bell was an interesting guy to work with on this project.

 

[sleeoffroad]

Originally Posted by SUMOTOY View Post
There are "kits out there that have similar boost numbers and more power". That's not a turbo application, that's an ancillary application.

I really don't think there is any disagreement, the numbers are pretty objective and repeatable.

SJ

I am really trying to understand this?

I was just trying to understand the above quoted sentence. Not the rest.