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- #41
@mrlocksmith
Appreciate all your detail on this thread! Feels like crushed ice should be coming out of the vents now.
More to your point.., I think the FJ62 had an option for an ice maker in the center console
Duracool-12A (TM), Envirosafe (TM), RedTek (TM), FrostyCool (TM) AKA Hydrocarbon AC Refrigerants (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter mrlocksmith
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More to your point.., I think the FJ62 had an option for an ice maker in the center console
Good write up, just have one question. Below is your formula for the charge amount in a base system. I'm finding similar numbers in other threads of 1.3 to 1.8lbs R12 for the US system, but I'm curious where the .9 additional comes into play?
I had used Envirosafe in a 92 Geo Metro years ago, and I liked the pine leak detector scent they added. Much better than NG smelling if you have leaks, but just don't really care all that much. Just to make sure (have some cans still) its always been the HC-12 formulation, not just rebranded R-134 cans, etc? At least to the best of your knowledge?
Glenn in Marana
My rig is a 1985 FJ60. The R-12 refrigerant capacity per the service manual is 1.4 Lb to 1.7 lb of normal R12 plus .9 LB to that. That = 2.6 Lbs total or 46.1 oz . According to the Duracool Charge Chart that is 15oz tops.. or 2.5 / 6 oz cans.
I had used Envirosafe in a 92 Geo Metro years ago, and I liked the pine leak detector scent they added. Much better than NG smelling if you have leaks, but just don't really care all that much. Just to make sure (have some cans still) its always been the HC-12 formulation, not just rebranded R-134 cans, etc? At least to the best of your knowledge?
Glenn in Marana
My rig is a 1985 FJ60. The R-12 refrigerant capacity per the service manual is 1.4 Lb to 1.7 lb of normal R12 plus .9 LB to that. That = 2.6 Lbs total or 46.1 oz . According to the Duracool Charge Chart that is 15oz tops.. or 2.5 / 6 oz cans.
- Thread starter
- #44
Glen:
Replying to your message to me here as I could not load the page snip from the FSM. Look at step D It is not super clear but to me it reads .9LBS more than the specified amount. Don't know why they state it that way. My pressures with R12 were way low until I figured that out.
Replying to your message to me here as I could not load the page snip from the FSM. Look at step D It is not super clear but to me it reads .9LBS more than the specified amount. Don't know why they state it that way. My pressures with R12 were way low until I figured that out.
- Thread starter
- #45
Sorry I do not have any hard data here for you on that as I am no longer running R-134A. Maybe someone with some AC smarts can post up vent temps (NON-IR) while idling @2000 rpms at a specified ambient temp and humidity with the AC @ MAX and the fan set to mid level. Hard to compare side by side when the ambient weather conditions are not the same for the vehicles that are being measured. Empirically though I say it's much colder.
Yup. I see it. Darned if I can figure out *why* they would specify that rather than just give us a higher number of R-12 to start with. Perhaps we can get Rex @1972FJ55 to chime in on that oddity.
Glenn in Marana
I can't say I've ever seen this before. I know on my 60 I charged it (R12) to 28oz and the pressures were spot on. Adding almost another pound would have had negative consequences. My best guess is that the translation from Japanese to English is a little off of what they actually meant. Here's an example:
*If the low pressure gauge does not show a reading,
the system is clogged and must be required.
Required???
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- #48
@mrlocksmith
Appreciate all your detail on this thread! Feels like crushed ice should be coming out of the vents now.
Glad it worked for you ! Holy Smokes... this thread has had 10,000 views WOW !
Well my dryer just took a dump prematurely, so for servicing I'll be ordering a 30lb tank of Duracool 12a. Gonna change out the dryer (of course) and the servicing valve cores, add a couple oz. of mineral oil, a bit of dye for leak detection and service with Duracool this time around. I still need to work on my blower motor project to see how I can maximize airflow but that'll come later. Gotta have cold air for summer!
- Thread starter
- #50
Wish you luck. A 30LB tank will last a long time. I have not needed a top-up since I converted in 2018. This last weekend it got 100F in Vegas. I was getting 40F vent temps with the outside air coming in. Humidity was 10%. Freeway speeds.
Yeah I honestly wish I could get smaller than a 30lb tank without having to get cans, since it'd allow for a much more precise servicing without having to change out a can. As it is, a 62 looks like it would only take 14oz on a charge from empty, but that's still two and a third cans so two change-outs would throw you off slightly.
One advantage of small cans is knowing how much you have put in! Also, while charge weight matters, so do vent temperatures. My FJ62 had 'some' R12 in it and the PO noted poor AC performance. I found 66 degree center vent temps.
I added one can of genuine R12 and got a center vent temp of 44F on a hot day. I did not any more R12 and it has worked fine for 5 years since then. So, at some point, if you have added the oil and enough refrigerant to get a nice cold temp, the precise amount of refrigerant is not that important. As always, quit while you're ahead - if you nice cold A/C, you are done. (At least that is my perspective on refrigerant quantities).
I added one can of genuine R12 and got a center vent temp of 44F on a hot day. I did not any more R12 and it has worked fine for 5 years since then. So, at some point, if you have added the oil and enough refrigerant to get a nice cold temp, the precise amount of refrigerant is not that important. As always, quit while you're ahead - if you nice cold A/C, you are done. (At least that is my perspective on refrigerant quantities).
So this is odd. I changed my dryer today, vacuumed down and leak checked my A/C, then proceeded to charge it with Duracool 12a from the 30lb cylinder I have. Obviously being a 30lb cylinder, it wasn't feasible to hold it high enough upside down to get a liquid charge into the service port. I had mentioned this in conversation to a guy who's been servicing A/C systems for 20+ years, and he recommended to do it the way he does with typical R12 charges. Gaseous only via the low pressure port, build it up to the middle of the specified pressure range with the vehicle off (in my case that was about 33 PSI), turn off the gas and let the pressure disperse through the system for about 15-20 minutes, add a bit to bring it back to the 33 PSI, let set again, fire up the truck and turn the A/C on, then slowly add gas via the low pressure port until the pressure reads what's called for with the refrigerant used (for this it was 30-38 PSI so I was shooting for 35 PSI). After firing up my truck and turning on the A/C the pressure crept down (which I expected as the system got into equilibrium). Air was blowing cool (not cold, but cooler than ambient), so I slowly added refrigerant to bring up the pressure. I was watching both the weight and the low side pressure, but here's where it got weird. I had only serviced 5.2 oz of refrigerant (no where near the ~14oz that it should've taken before reaching recommended pressure), and suddenly the pressure spiked to ~50 PSI and the pressure relief on my new dryer popped (God damnit) and vented the refrigerant and an ounce or so of oil.
What's interesting is this is exactly what the last dryer did a couple weeks ago that I just randomly noticed one morning before even turning on the A/C. That time it had been running just fine under normal use (even ran it the day before with no issue) for the two years it'd been since being charged with (at that time) fresh R12. The fact that this same thing happened on an untouched, proper R12 charge as well leads me to wonder if the expansion valve has a clog somehow and something shifted (or something. Hell I don't know) to really block things up while I was servicing the Duracool. So new dryer on the way (again) and new expansion valve coming too. I'll try it again and this time with new components keep a close eye on just the pressures and not worry about the weight of the refrigerant going in.
What's interesting is this is exactly what the last dryer did a couple weeks ago that I just randomly noticed one morning before even turning on the A/C. That time it had been running just fine under normal use (even ran it the day before with no issue) for the two years it'd been since being charged with (at that time) fresh R12. The fact that this same thing happened on an untouched, proper R12 charge as well leads me to wonder if the expansion valve has a clog somehow and something shifted (or something. Hell I don't know) to really block things up while I was servicing the Duracool. So new dryer on the way (again) and new expansion valve coming too. I'll try it again and this time with new components keep a close eye on just the pressures and not worry about the weight of the refrigerant going in.
Hello Mr. Locksmith, thank you for your write up! I'm about to charge an aftermarket sytem and your write-up was very helpful. Before putting in the 12A (I'm using Enviro-Safe), Enviro-Safe advises charging into a vacuum only with their "Industrial" product which is at 85psi in the can (vs. 70psi for their 6oz can). This avoids the potential for overcharging. I tried to come up with my own plan (based off of yours) that would fill in some of the gaps in my understanding as to how to proceed. Some of the questions I had concerned filling into a vacuum, injecting oil, and accurately weighing the refrigerant. Please have a look at what I came up with and comment away. Much appreciated.
CHARGING SYSTEM WITH ES 12A INTO A VACUUM USING IN-LINE INJECTOR (MASTERCOOL)
Must use Industrial Enviro-Safe (8oz can). This is a different blend than the 6oz can, as per Enviro-Safe tech.
First prepare oil injector with its valve closed and filled with 2 oz of oil (as needed)
Install injector in-line with blue low-side hose at manifold
1) Recover/remove the old 134A with both blue and red valves open
2) Pull vacuum, close both manifold valves, remove yellow hose from pump.
3) Attach refrigerant can with valve to yellow hose
4) Pierce can by closing valve, then slowly open can valve
5) Bleed yellow line by cracking open then closing yellow line at manifold
6) Pre-pressure both sides of system (compressor remains off!) and TAKE WEIGHT MEASUREMENT.: bleed liquid refrigerant into blue and red hoses by briefly opening and closing blue and red manifold valves. This is the starting weight of refrigerant.
INJECT MINIMUM CHARGE (to get low side to just 30psi to get compressor to come on when car is started)
7) Slowly open blue low-side valve and slowly add minimum charge of about 3oz. of 12A with can upside down via yellow hose into the vacuumed system
8) Close blue valve and can valve
9) Wait 30 min for liquid refrigerant to disperse to gas; hand turn compressor 15 complete revolutions
10) Start compressor/car with fan on low (pressure readings are taken with compressor on and can valve closed. When can valve is opened the gauge will read can pressure which is usually higher than low side pressure)
11) Low side should read 30-31 psi. Compressor may be running non-stop or may be short-cycling (on-off every few seconds) due to low refrigerant. If low side is < 30psi, the compressor may not come on at all due to Hi-Lo switch and may need to be jumped or add a bit more minimal charge.
Compressor is on when the center of its pulley is rotating.
12) Do oil check:
Operate the A/C unit for 15-20 minutes.
Remove blue low pressure coupling from compressor low-side suction line
Put the oil checker between your thumb, index finger and middle finger and with the A/C compressor running, push down on the low pressure (suction line) 2 or 3 times.
Set the checker tube upright for 3-5 minutes then pick up the checker and check the oil level.
If the tube is 1/2 or more full, DO NOT add oil to the system.
If the checker is below 1/2 full, add oil to system.
13) Adding Refrigerant +/- Oil: err on side of underfilling, top-off later
With compressor/car running, slowly open can valve and then very slowly open and close blue valve with can upside down to very gradually add liquid refrigerant until low side reads 35-36 psi (28 - 45 psi) at idle (depending on ambient temp) and watch for compressor cycling. Trinary switch will prevent compressor from coming on until low side > 30psi unless jumped.
Stop the flow of refrigerant when compressor cycles on-off every 45-60 secs. (i.e. compressor should not be short-cycling nor staying on for long periods or constantly on). Check vent temp.
Drive the car, let system equilibrate, re-measure.
Low Pressure side will be 28-45psi depending on ambient temp
High pressure side will be 100 + ambient temp, but will often be lower
if oil is needed, keep oil injector valve open during topping-off
To change refrigerant cans, close blue valve and can valve, change the can, and take a weight measurement;
Checking Vent Temp:
40 deg @ 80 ambient
50 deg @ 90 ambient
CHARGING SYSTEM WITH ES 12A INTO A VACUUM USING IN-LINE INJECTOR (MASTERCOOL)
Must use Industrial Enviro-Safe (8oz can). This is a different blend than the 6oz can, as per Enviro-Safe tech.
First prepare oil injector with its valve closed and filled with 2 oz of oil (as needed)
Install injector in-line with blue low-side hose at manifold
1) Recover/remove the old 134A with both blue and red valves open
2) Pull vacuum, close both manifold valves, remove yellow hose from pump.
3) Attach refrigerant can with valve to yellow hose
4) Pierce can by closing valve, then slowly open can valve
5) Bleed yellow line by cracking open then closing yellow line at manifold
6) Pre-pressure both sides of system (compressor remains off!) and TAKE WEIGHT MEASUREMENT.: bleed liquid refrigerant into blue and red hoses by briefly opening and closing blue and red manifold valves. This is the starting weight of refrigerant.
INJECT MINIMUM CHARGE (to get low side to just 30psi to get compressor to come on when car is started)
7) Slowly open blue low-side valve and slowly add minimum charge of about 3oz. of 12A with can upside down via yellow hose into the vacuumed system
8) Close blue valve and can valve
9) Wait 30 min for liquid refrigerant to disperse to gas; hand turn compressor 15 complete revolutions
10) Start compressor/car with fan on low (pressure readings are taken with compressor on and can valve closed. When can valve is opened the gauge will read can pressure which is usually higher than low side pressure)
11) Low side should read 30-31 psi. Compressor may be running non-stop or may be short-cycling (on-off every few seconds) due to low refrigerant. If low side is < 30psi, the compressor may not come on at all due to Hi-Lo switch and may need to be jumped or add a bit more minimal charge.
Compressor is on when the center of its pulley is rotating.
12) Do oil check:
Operate the A/C unit for 15-20 minutes.
Remove blue low pressure coupling from compressor low-side suction line
Put the oil checker between your thumb, index finger and middle finger and with the A/C compressor running, push down on the low pressure (suction line) 2 or 3 times.
Set the checker tube upright for 3-5 minutes then pick up the checker and check the oil level.
If the tube is 1/2 or more full, DO NOT add oil to the system.
If the checker is below 1/2 full, add oil to system.
13) Adding Refrigerant +/- Oil: err on side of underfilling, top-off later
With compressor/car running, slowly open can valve and then very slowly open and close blue valve with can upside down to very gradually add liquid refrigerant until low side reads 35-36 psi (28 - 45 psi) at idle (depending on ambient temp) and watch for compressor cycling. Trinary switch will prevent compressor from coming on until low side > 30psi unless jumped.
Stop the flow of refrigerant when compressor cycles on-off every 45-60 secs. (i.e. compressor should not be short-cycling nor staying on for long periods or constantly on). Check vent temp.
Drive the car, let system equilibrate, re-measure.
Low Pressure side will be 28-45psi depending on ambient temp
High pressure side will be 100 + ambient temp, but will often be lower
if oil is needed, keep oil injector valve open during topping-off
To change refrigerant cans, close blue valve and can valve, change the can, and take a weight measurement;
Checking Vent Temp:
40 deg @ 80 ambient
50 deg @ 90 ambient
- Thread starter
- #55
All of this sounds very reasonable... I am not a professional by any means so good luck. I even went to their web page and looked at the oil checkers they have. I might have to start using those.
Mark
Just to follow up what happened here for anyone nervous about this conversion: the fault was my own. I had discovered that before charging again I accidentally shorted out the +12V lead on my electric fan's kill switch while removing it from the dash and blew the fuse, so while charging the system and paying more attention, I saw that the high side was spiking to much higher pressure than it should've before the low side (or service weight) was anywhere near where it needed to be for proper charge. I stopped charging, switched off the system before the new (third) dryer could blow its pressure fuse (the brass screw, which in both previous dryers did exactly what it's designed to do), let the pressures settle and checked, then replaced, the fuse on the fan. Started back up and resumed charging my system without issue. It's been running beautifully since; now over a year.
@osseous Absolutely do NOT charge liquid (upside down can/cylinder) into the low pressure side of the system! You could very quickly over pressurize the system and cause damage (beyond just the dryer pressure fuse blowing out). Best thing to do is take your time and very slowly charge only gas into the low pressure side. I explain why in my post that this one is replying to. Putting an initial liquid charge into the high pressure side works when you're pressed for time, but the tech I talked to explained to me that when you have the time, you'll get much better results by doing all the freon servicing exclusively as gas through the low pressure side while only having the high pressure hooked up to the manifold valve for the sake of monitoring pressure. This will also be slow enough that if you run into a situation similar to mine, you'll be able to catch it and stop the process in time to avoid damage and correct the source of the problem.
Spook50, I like your method, seems logical and the safest way. You know, I spoke with Barry (mgr.) at Duracool who told me point blank to NEVER charge 12A as a gas, only as a liquid. (I didn't ask him why, but will tomorrow) This seemed a bit risky to me, but he said that as long as you go slow and let the liquid vaporize in the system, no problem.. But if you can achieve the same results, and maybe even better according to your AC guy, then charging as a gas would be the way to go imo. However, your AC guy has been charging R12, and I don't know why it would make a difference with 12A.
- Thread starter
- #58
Spook:
Absolutely agree about NO liquid charge into the low (suction side) while the compressor is running. However it is safe and recommended from both Envirosafe and Duracool to charge the coolant in a liquid state (Upside Down Can) into the suction side while the compressor is off and then let it boil off for 30 - 45 min. This is an effort to get the pressure switch to kick over and permit the clutch on the compressor to engage... there are other ways of doing this with a gas charge by forcing the compressor to come as well. Good to hear you got things sorted out.
It really shouldn't, since they're very similar in composition and operation. When I first read your post I got the impression that you intended to charge as liquid through the low pressure side with the system running, and that is most definitely bad juju. Like @mrlocksmith just posted, a small amount (and letting it equalize) before operating the system to let the pressure switch engage is okay. When I did mine I let a gas charge slowly build up in the system through the low pressure side until there was enough pressure to allow the pressure switch to engage.
Specifically, were you repeatedly turning the car/compressor on and off as you were building up the charge to check if the compressor would come on? Or is there a simpler way to know when the pressure switch has engaged?
