Don't let them have your 200 (4 Viewers)

[Zill]

What I mean of course is that it would not hurt this NA big block engine. Even a long climb would be say 30 to 45 min and that is it.

The transmission with a cooler in the 200 series (assume the 250 has as well) could be the reason you need to back off. Seems that is more so of an issue for the 250 series based on reviews I have seen.

Good point.

The 250 doesn’t have a dedicated transmission radiator (cost cutting strikes again), and likely the biggest limiting factor when going uphill. The 250, even without towing anything behind it, struggles with (concerning) trans temps on long ascents.

The big weak link in the prado series so far is the transmission.

 

[2021 LC200]

And the tin can doors and less interior space (narrow and rear seat space) and loud 4 banger and premium fuel offsetting most fuel savings and the flat front windshield and the battery in the back taking up a lot of space and no split tail gate and engine drive train sound all over the place as a result of being a hybrid etc etc etc

 

[Zill]

And the tin can doors and less interior space (narrow and rear seat space) and loud 4 banger and premium fuel offsetting most fuel savings and the flat front windshield and the battery in the back taking up a lot of space and no split tail gate and engine drive train sound all over the place as a result of being a hybrid etc etc etc

But hey, it has a Land Cruiser badge, right? So it must be good?

 

[prharper]

And the tin can doors and less interior space (narrow and rear seat space) and loud 4 banger and premium fuel offsetting most fuel savings and the flat front windshield and the battery in the back taking up a lot of space and no split tail gate and engine drive train sound all over the place as a result of being a hybrid etc etc etc

+1 on lack of split tail gate. It's one of my favorite features. Also lacking on 300 series / Lexus equivalent

 

[TeCKis300]

- It may be significantly more efficient than the v8 under load. The only reference I've seen is that the turbo 4 was about 80% more efficient (3.5mpg vs 6.2mpg) vs the 1GR up Eisenhower pass. Need a test to know. Could also be worse.

- the 5.7 isn't great for engine braking. It's not worthless - but it's not very useful in my experience. I'm not sure how the 4cyl is, but it may be even less useful. The hybrid *should* make it a lot better. But - Toyota chose not to do it. Not sure why.

- I think the LC200 are 340/345mm vs 335/335mm on the 250. Slightly smaller on the 250.

- Not sure about the 8.2. It's smaller. Should be a 9.5 - but I've yet to see stock 8.2 failure. Maybe it's okay? I'll change my mind if I ever see an 8.2 fail. (I know of one 8.2 that broke ring gear teeth, but it was aftermarket gears).



I don't know enough about the engine braking on the 2.4 to compare. The 5.7 isn't great for engine braking. In terms of midsize SUVs - sure, it's probably better than most small NA v6s and 4cyls.

The 4cyl is significantly more robust on the bottom end than the 3UR. It's a smaller displacement engine obviously, but it's built like a diesel. It may last longer under heavy load. May not. Still TBD on that front. It is definitely more robust build internally though.

Good data.

Engine braking is largely a function of displacement and compression. I find the 5.7L to engine brake well with my 8k trailer. There's no way a small displacement 4 cyl will engine brake adequately for a large trailer. This is a common issue with small displacement engines for all manufacturers, including passenger car based diesels. Regen isn't the elixir because the energy has to be shunted somewhere and the small batteries associated with hybrids will top out, leaving a dangerous situation if one is really counting on regen. On the trailer forum I frequent, even the small displacement turbo/hybrid V6s are marginal for larger trailers with engine braking.

Front LC200 brakes are commonly 32mm width vs 28mm width for 250.

An 8.2" diff won't have teeth surface area and heat capacity for high extended outputs which will cause pitting in the teeth over time. Which is why the GX550 has a larger rear diff to support the higher motor output and increased towing capacity.

The 4cyl is a more stressed engine design, and more complex. The 5.7L needs no qualification as it's already proven to be a robust design with some examples going 900k miles. The highest mileage Prius by comparison has around 500k miles. Hybrid drivetrains in general are more stressed which is why it needs to be built robust, but that doesn't necessarily translate into more overall long term durability. Point maybe moot as these are all Toyota's but my bet will be on the proven 5.7L. And definitely the 200-series overall if heavy work is the use case.

I mean, who bets against the world renowned full fat Land Cruiser? Toyota designed Prado in context of a larger lineup and that's not at the top.

 

[Jetboy]

The hybrid motor should be able to help brake a lot more that it seems to. But I don't think Toyota really put any effort into towing with it. It's strange that they didn't do more. Seems like they kinda phoned it in.

I'm not sure the 8.2 gets all that hot. Especially in an awd model that's not sending a ton of power to the rear axle. It's probably only getting 150hp or so. I'm not sure how much gear contact difference there is. It might be closer than it seems depending on the swept area of the ring gear. I would have thought the hybrid combined with the 8 speed was way too much torque for an 8.2. But they seem okay so far.

It's just a newer generation. The 250 would pretty early easily out perform the full fat 100 series in towing. Same with the 80 and 60 and 55. They all have their unique character. But time marches on. A new Tacoma would out tow a first Gen tundra too. And probably also a 4.6 gen 2. The next Gen Prado in 2056 will probably be another jump up. If the 250 had a 10 or 20kwh battery - that's really all it needed to be a big winner. Or a ttv6. Then it would have sustained high output. Toyota just didn't seem to put much effort in on the hybrid system. Missed opportunity.

 

[TeCKis300]

The hybrid motor should be able to help brake a lot more that it seems to. But I don't think Toyota really put any effort into towing with it. It's strange that they didn't do more. Seems like they kinda phoned it in.

I'm not sure the 8.2 gets all that hot. Especially in an awd model that's not sending a ton of power to the rear axle. It's probably only getting 150hp or so. I'm not sure how much gear contact difference there is. It might be closer than it seems depending on the swept area of the ring gear. I would have thought the hybrid combined with the 8 speed was way too much torque for an 8.2. But they seem okay so far.

It's just a newer generation. The 250 would pretty early easily out perform the full fat 100 series in towing. Same with the 80 and 60 and 55. They all have their unique character. But time marches on. The next Gen Prado in 2056 will probably be another jump up. If the 250 had a 10 or 20kwh battery - that's really all it needed to be a big winner. Or a ttv6. Then it would have sustained high output. Toyota just didn't seem to put much effort in on the hybrid system. Missed opportunity.

Copy on the full-time 4WD, but the Tundra actually uses a 10.5" diff for the same 5.7L on the part time Tundra. GX550 uses a 9.5" with the bigger motor. Diff size matters for long term durability against heavy loads.

No disrespect for the LC250 but an HD cruiser it is not. Toyota tells us this. It fills a role as a light duty Prado. Even lighter than the GX550 Prado. A Jeep and Bronco might out wheel a 200-series too but let's not kid ourselves that any of these light duty models are meant for HD jobs. They were built for a price point, use case, and Taco/4R owner looking for an incremental step up.

That's why there's still an HD 300-series. Regardless of opinions, Toyota designs and builds them as completely different classes of vehicles.

 

[OregonLC]

The 250 doesn’t have a dedicated transmission radiator

I think an under appreciated 100 and 200 design element is that the trans isn’t just cooled it’s controlled. By flowing through the bottom tank,
trans temperature is managed both up and down, warming it up quickly and preventing it from cooling too much in extreme cold.

This is the level of engineering that goes into the top shelf vehicle.

 

[Jetboy]

It's a bit odd that Toyota uses the 10.5 on the 5.7 other than maybe preping for the supercharger. But even the the non-hybrid 3rd gen Tundra has a lot more torque to the axle than the supercharged tundra. Probably over-spec'd on the 2nd gen Tundra. My guess is that Toyota just benchmarrked the F250 and went for it. Ford did have the F150 HD for a while with IIRC a 10.25 rear end.

I just don't agree that the 300 is a different class vs the 250. They're very similar midsize SUVs. The 150 vs 200 - sure. But now... not so much. It's about the same as the difference between a base Wrangler and a Rubicon. They're not the same, but they're pretty close siblings. Much closer than Tacoma is to Tundra.

I think we need someone to put some hard miles on the 250 and see how it does. Probably learn a lot more from the Tacomas - just more of them getting used a lot harder.

 

[Jetboy]

I think an under appreciated 100 and 200 design element is that the trans isn’t just cooled it’s controlled. By flowing through the bottom tank,
trans temperature is managed both up and down, warming it up quickly and preventing it from cooling too much in extreme cold.

This is the level of engineering that goes into the top shelf vehicle.

This is pretty universal on all automatic tranmissions. The LC250 uses both a dedicated part of the radiator and a liquid to liquid cooler.

 

[Zill]

This is pretty universal on all automatic tranmissions. The LC250 uses both a dedicated part of the radiator and a liquid to liquid cooler.
View attachment 3855517

No, that’s just a heat exchanger using the engine coolant to warm and “somewhat” cool the transmission fluid, but it’s cooling capabilities are very limited since the actual transmission fluid is not flowing through a radiator.

What I’m talking about is the 200 has a dedicated transmission cooler and a heat exchanger where it can thoroughly keep the transmission at safe temps under extreme load situations by running hot transmission fluid through radiator fins to keep the transmission fluid cool.

 

[Noctilucent]

It's a bit odd that Toyota uses the 10.5 on the 5.7 other than maybe preping for the supercharger. But even the the non-hybrid 3rd gen Tundra has a lot more torque to the axle than the supercharged tundra. Probably over-spec'd on the 2nd gen Tundra. My guess is that Toyota just benchmarrked the F250 and went for it. Ford did have the F150 HD for a while with IIRC a 10.25 rear end.

I just don't agree that the 300 is a different class vs the 250. They're very similar midsize SUVs. The 150 vs 200 - sure. But now... not so much. It's about the same as the difference between a base Wrangler and a Rubicon. They're not the same, but they're pretty close siblings. Much closer than Tacoma is to Tundra.

I think we need someone to put some hard miles on the 250 and see how it does. Probably learn a lot more from the Tacomas - just more of them getting used a lot harder.

kneels Your wish has come true, Sire! A hero from the kingdom of Reddit has taken your quest head on he’s racked up 30k miles in just three months. As a medical courier clocking 120k miles a year, he recently chose the Land Cruiser 250 steed! bravely riding forth on 255/70/18 snow tires (Blizzak DM-V2).

 

[rexington14]

No disrespect for the LC250 but an HD cruiser it is not. Toyota tells us this. It fills a role as a light duty Prado. Even lighter than the GX550 Prado. A Jeep and Bronco might out wheel a 200-series too but let's not kid ourselves that any of these light duty models are meant for HD jobs. They were built for a price point, use case, and Taco/4R owner looking for an incremental step up.

That's why there's still an HD 300-series. Regardless of opinions, Toyota designs and builds them as completely different classes of vehicles.

If you want to bring GX550 into the mix, the TTv6 matches or exceeds the 5.7L in towing, acceleration, and overall performance while doing it with much reduced tailpipe emissions and improved MPG.

The 300 isn't "HD". That's the 70 series, which is irrelevant here (usa). Toyota tells us this. Kind of funny that the "light duty" GX550 has a higher official towing capacity than the "supposedly HD" 300 series LX600 or LX700h.

Sure, there are other differences and improvements, but what you are paying (a lot) more for with the 300 (and to a bit lesser extent the 200) over their respective "lighter duty" versions is luxury more than anything else. Toyota tells us this too.

 

[2021 LC200]

When you compare a BMW 3 and 5 series there are many similarities yet just about everything in a 5 series is bigger, better seats, more sound insulation etc etc

The 300 series is a true follow up and in many ways another step up from a 200 series. The 250 is a follow up of the 150 and a poor one from what I have seen and felt.

Watch some Aussie videos of Gross Vehicle Mass upgrades and it’s clear the 250 is a step down from the 300 series. There maybe some shared frame components but even there the 300 series is beefier.

Why do not 250 Prado owners take their energy in the 250 part of the forum instead of trying to convince real Land Cruiser owners what their Prado is?

 

[TeCKis300]

If you want to bring GX550 into the mix, the TTv6 matches or exceeds the 5.7L in towing, acceleration, and overall performance while doing it with much reduced tailpipe emissions and improved MPG.

The 300 isn't "HD". That's the 70 series, which is irrelevant here (usa). Toyota tells us this. Kind of funny that the "light duty" GX550 has a higher official towing capacity than the "supposedly HD" 300 series LX600 or LX700h.

Sure, there are other differences and improvements, but what you are paying (a lot) more for with the 300 (and to a bit lesser extent the 200) over their respective "lighter duty" versions is luxury more than anything else. Toyota tells us this too.

Just like the new Taco bros stepping into the Tundra forums and flexing.

Next thing you know will be Rav4 bros telling us all how it really is.

 

[2021 LC200]

The hybrid motor should be able to help brake a lot more that it seems to. But I don't think Toyota really put any effort into towing with it. It's strange that they didn't more.

Since the battery is not infinite size once it is charged it does not brake the vehicle anymore. Then there is the programming or control of the same. On our daughters 2022 Accord Hybrid there are steering wheel pedals which allow additional braking or regen. Not familiar whether the Toyota hybrids have something like that. Could be helpful be it for a finite amount of time. Maybe a couple of miles downhill but then what…?

 

[Girl Dad of 3]

When you compare a BMW 3 and 5 series there are many similarities yet just about everything in a 5 series is bigger, better seats, more sound insulation etc etc

The 300 series is a true follow up and in many ways another step up from a 200 series. The 250 is a follow up of the 150 and a poor one from what I have seen and felt.

Watch some Aussie videos of Gross Vehicle Mass upgrade videos and it’s clear the 250 is a step down from the 300 series. There maybe some shared frame components but even there the 300 series is beefier.

Why do not 250 Prado owners take their energy in the 250 part of the forum instead of trying to convince real Land Cruiser owners what their Prado is?

And the 300 (at least in the US) is a poor follow up to the 200. Don’t let them take your 200 in exchange for a new LX 600, which has an engine that malfunctions, no split tailgate, and no double visor. Down with the 300!

[readies pitchfork]

 

[2021 LC200]

And the 300 (at least in the US) is a poor follow up to the 200. Don’t let them take your 200 in exchange for a new LX 600, which has an engine that malfunctions, no split tailgate, and no double visor. Down with the 300!

[readies pitchfork]

Maybe, have not driven a LX 300 yet.

IMO once the V6 TT gets fixed it remains an interesting vehicle to own at some point in the future. Maybe an 2028 or so model year purchased post a lease. Even the GX550 has lots to over but I am watching for now. The GX though in addition to our 2021 LX200.

 

[OregonLC]

This is pretty universal on all automatic tranmissions. The LC250 uses both a dedicated part of the radiator and a liquid to liquid cooler.

Does the 250 have a dedicated trans cooler or is it using coolant for heat rejection? I'd be interested to see a report from an OBDII monitor to see how quickly the trans temp comes up. On the Ram 2500 it has no such 'standard' coolant integration and in the winter takes 45-60 minutes of highway driving for the trans to come up to full operating temp.

No, that’s just a heat exchanger using the engine coolant to warm and “somewhat” cool the transmission fluid, but it’s cooling capabilities are very limited since the actual transmission fluid is not flowing through a radiator.

What I’m talking about is the 200 has a dedicated transmission cooler and a heat exchanger where it can thoroughly keep the transmission at safe temps under extreme load situations by running hot transmission fluid through radiator fins to keep the transmission fluid cool.

^ This is my understanding of the 100/200 design as well.

 

[Girl Dad of 3]

Maybe, have not driven a LX 300 yet.

IMO once the V6 TT gets fixed it remains an interesting vehicle to own at some point in the future. Maybe an 2028 or so model year purchased post a lease. Even the GX550 has lots to over but I am watching for now. The GX though in addition to our 2021 LX200.

I just think we have exhausted the debate on this forum on the 200 vs 250 issue. The horse is long dead. And ultimately, if we 200 owners are right, it’s just punching down anyway.

Set our sights on bigger game. Move up a weight class. Let’s hear all the reasons why, or why not, one should trade the legendary 200 for a new 300.

My opinion: I would not trade my 200 for a 300 straight up, putting aside the price difference. Or if it were offered to me as a straight up swap (which it wouldn’t be of course), I’d sell the 300, pocket the cash difference, and get another good condition 200.