Doing SOA over Christmas Break! The never ending saga!!!

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Status Update: Stage 1 complete: The truck has the axles under it (not welded yet) and in rolling sprung over condition. A big thanks to everyone who came out and helped. There is no way I could have gotten anywhere close without the help of so many people. Saturday was a big turn out with over five people showing up at different times. They drove places to get parts I didn’t have and Mark even took my rear axle housing back to his shop and installed new seals and bearings in less than two hours while we worked on the front axle. I still have a lot of work to do but it seems less daunting now that the hardest part is over. Here’s a list that Joey helped me complete at the end of Sunday:

Hysteer not clearing Springs
Get old Pittman Arm off with puller or bigger pickle fork
Rear passenger spring inverted – need AAL
Missing two u-bolt top plates from Ruff Stuff
Install Disc Brake Calipers on front and rear
Install new brake pads
Install brake lines (front backing plate eliminator kit)
Weld ford shock towers in
Weld lower rear shock brakets onto rear axle
Install Ruffstuff anti-wrap bar
Measure for shocks once springs and shock mounts are on
Install CnT front axle once it returns (extra front axle in its place currenty)
Rebuild CnT front axle once it comes in
Weld on Marlin Crawler knuckle gussets (w/ lower shock mounts included)
Extend sway bar links and get new bushings
Install anti-inversion shackles on rear
Need new shackles on front, stock angle not good
Install ARB locker / gear set into CnT axle when rebuilding
Remove rear tire carrier cross member, useless for 35’s
Extend differential breathers using 1/4" fuel line
Install mini fuel paper element fuel filter on end of breathers to prevent debris getting in
Rebuild front drivershaft to handle increased droop from lift
Weld extra stud bracket onto knuckle for 4x4 labs 6 stud hysteer arms
Install zirc fitting onto steering
New bumpstops, possible need for limit straps with current steering
Replace two hub screws that I over torqued and broke
I’m sure there’s more.

Biggest issue is getting the cleaned front axle housing shipped early this week.
Next is finding out why the Hysteer isn’t high enough
Third is installing AAL’s in the rear before welding pinion angle

Lots of work and summer offroading season in the sierras is coming fast. Pics to come this week as I get a good camera and go over and take pics to help me ask questions of all the SOA people.
 
Sweet! That's quite the to do list, but I'm sure you'll get it all done. You've got more progress than I do and my truck has been out of commission for 2 weeks now!
 
GLTHFJ60 said:
Sweet! That's quite the to do list, but I'm sure you'll get it all done. You've got more progress than I do and my truck has been out of commission for 2 weeks now!
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Don't judge too quick. There has been progress but I've just touched the tip of the iceberg.

Ok, here’s the hard part. I need to make a few decisions before moving forward as you have all stated. It seems you have all been discussing this complicated build before I could get home. :D All of you have different opinions and have taken your builds in different directions. I need to look at the pros and cons of everything and come to conclusions.

Let’s start with the shackle reversal as that directly affects the front housing that will be sent out soon. I wish I could drive in a cruiser with one and one without before making a decision but unfortunately that isn’t going to happen. Dave West was explaining at our last 4x4 club meeting that he was going shackle reversal with his truck. His use for the truck is a daily driver SOA with light offroading (he uses his 40 for hard stuff) and he wants the better ride on road. I on the other hand want the best off road / rock crawling characteristics. If the truck rides rougher I don’t care. This truck is not meant as a cross country comfort vehicle. It’s meant to take me and a whole bunch of stuff and people to places I normally can’t get to with a stock truck. Dave West also said that you don’t want the axle pushing into the rocks on the trail but rather you want the axle to move back. This is where everything gets fuzzy. I understand the basics of what a shackle reversal does and what a stock setup does. I can’t visualize which way to go. It’s very hard to judge what people say on the internet and turn that into real life. What I need is people’s real life experience offroading with these trucks.

The second question is regarding the stock shackles. I’ll be using anti inversion shackles for the rear from the parts truck. I think those will be sufficient from what I have seen people running (again, on the internet and not in person.) The front is another story. Mark was explaining that stock shackles may not be the best for the front. I’ll do my best to paraphrase his words but it’s pretty fuzzy for me. He explained that stock shackles have been known to snap and that beefier ones might be a better solution. I believe he said that Dave has snapped stock shackles on his 40, again it’s fuzzy. That contradicts what is said above about them being beefy. The front shackles on my stock 62 are not as beefy as the rear. The front have a notch and the rear have no notch. Why were two different shackle styles used on the stock 62? Why wouldn’t Toyota go with the same ones front and rear? Were they saving weight or cost of material? Strength is not where I want to take the shackle conversation. I need to address whether or not longer shackles will benefit articulation and offroad performance. Mark was saying longer shackles would give better performance. What I would like to see discussed between Drew and Mark in this thread is why you both have chose opposite opinions. You both have a lot of experience and I’d like to hear more. Also, will one choice be better for the current hysteer problem which leads me to the next topic.

Hysteer: The 4x4 labs arms after being installed look like they will be hitting the springs. I purposely went with his full setup after seeing Drew go with it and work properly. What is different on my truck that would cause such a problem? I’m using stock 60 springs so we can rule out 62 springs differing. I don’t even know where to start here and I’m hoping Drew can shed some light for me before I call Luke.

Springs: The rear passenger side is inverted. Simply stating I need more arch in the rear springs so AAL’s are needed no matter what. That being said I need to figure out how to tackle this. I plan on having lots of stuff in the back of the truck as well as a spare tire on the bumper. Mark was saying that adding in stock leaves from my other packs will not help and that arched AAL’s will help the pack lift up. Why are AAL’s from a vendor that much better than taking the an arched long leaf from a stock pack? Who has gone with the stock leaves and made it work? This really doesn’t matter too much as AAL’s are cheap.

That’s enough rambling for now. I need to clear my head and try to tackle these issues one at a time and keep on pushing to get these issues solved as they will only postpone my build if I become idle.
 
Randy88FJ62 said:
Hysteer: The 4x4 labs arms after being installed look like they will be hitting the springs. I purposely went with his full setup after seeing Drew go with it and work properly. What is different on my truck that would cause such a problem? I’m using stock 60 springs so we can rule out 62 springs differing. I don’t even know where to start here and I’m hoping Drew can shed some light for me before I call Luke.

Springs: The rear passenger side is inverted. Simply stating I need more arch in the rear springs so AAL’s are needed no matter what. That being said I need to figure out how to tackle this. I plan on having lots of stuff in the back of the truck as well as a spare tire on the bumper. Mark was saying that adding in stock leaves from my other packs will not help and that arched AAL’s will help the pack lift up. Why are AAL’s from a vendor that much better than taking the an arched long leaf from a stock pack? Who has gone with the stock leaves and made it work? This really doesn’t matter too much as AAL’s are cheap. ]That’s enough rambling for now. I need to clear my head and try to tackle these issues one at a time and keep on pushing to get these issues solved as they will only postpone my build if I become idle.
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The reason your arms are hitting the springs, is because you have not rotated the knuckles. If you think about it, rotating the knuckle back, rotates the high steer up and will provide the clearance you need. My guess is your caster is goofy at this point, and a cut/turn will solve the problem. How does the pinion angle look?

Without seeing exactly where you welded your perches it's hard to know where you went wrong. I'm having a tough time visualizing why the front is welded when nothing there is in it's final configuration. Where you put the perches determines the pinion angle, and unless you do a cut and turn, then the caster is just along for the ride. If you don't plan the cut and turn, then you actually weld your perches in a different location to set the caster angle correctly, and then the pinion angle is along for the ride.

The other thing, is that Luke bends the arms custom to the configuration you are going with. So if he knew you were doing a cut and turn, the arms would have less "lift". When I built my 40, because of the Shackle reversal, I had to get my custom arms, custom bent! PIA but once dialed in, it's been great.

Mark is right about an AAL giving more height. I added stock leafs to the stock packs to beef them up a little-but they remain stock height and just increase the spring rate. Your stock springs just sound completely sacked-once they have lost their arch, they are done. For all practical purposes, 60 and 62 springs are the same, but the 62s are alledged to be more resistant to sagging. The do contain an extra leaf in each of the rear packs. I have another idea that may allow me to delete the wrap bar, but I'll post up once implemented.

Shackle reversal---This has been beaten to death, but since you are way behind schedule, and there are significant costs involved, and the advantages are not as clear as you might think, and your HS arms likely do not anticipate the SR, I'm going to recommend again you not do it. This is a must read:

Explanation re: Factory Shackle Location - Land Cruiser Tech from IH8MUD.com


Shackles-The stock shackles have a 18 mm solid pin. I think you'll break the mounts, before you break those. If you have high quality anti-inversions and they are stock height, by all means use them. If they are taller than stock, they will hang down lower in the front and will also affect your caster/cut/turn calculations. As to Dave breaking stock 40 shackles-Dave has broken everything! Including stuff that never breaks like bellhousings. Besides 40 series shackles are little tiny things, I wouldn't use them either.

Since you are going with kind of the same set-up that I used, if you want some detailed pictures, let me know and I'll take and post them for you. You can probably tell already why doing this a second time is MUCH easier. You already know and have dealt with the major issues.

If business takes you to Sacramento, you are welcome to drive my SR FJ40 and no SR 60 and compare side by side and decide if you really think it's worth it.
 
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Drew,
The front axle perches were welded parallel thinking that I could drive it around for a few weeks without the front driveshaft and still have the steering. Irony has it that the hysteer arms only work appropriately with a CnT axle. So as of now my truck will sit waiting for the proper CnT one to return. I feel relieved knowing now that the steering arms are fine and it’s just my half ass mock up causing the issues seen in the front. Unfortunately I created a lot of extra work that ate up time. You live and learn and become more efficient.
I will be adding a traction bar to the rear so adding stock leaves to a pack will not be helpful to me as the traction bar will take care of the antiwrap. Since the FJ60 springs I put on the rear are sagging and not matching well (cruiser lean to the pass side) I will rebuild my rear FJ62 spring packs since they are out with AAL’s. That way I can swap them in when I weld the rear up. How many AAL’s do people put in when planning on carrying heavy loads in the back and spare gas, tires, etc? Would a single long leaf work well from man-a-fre or downey? Or should I get both a short and long one and really lift the rear? Hard to know how much the truck will need.
Thanks for the attached article above. I remember seeing that before but like many things it all doesn’t stick until you encounter it in real life and start applying it. Seems like the steering setup should not be used with a shackle reversal so I’ll stay away from it, Saves me time and labor too. I’ll let Dave know that this information is in this thread so he can review it. There may be things he needs to consider for his own front suspension setup.
The anti-inversion shackles I have will be used on the rear. I have not chose what type of shackle to use in the front. I think this is something I need to address immediately so that the CnT axle works appropriately. How do I determine what length and style shackles to go with? Mark says the stock ones will limit the vehicle. What type do I need to go with to maximize the potential of the front suspension? If you went with stock shackles, how do they work? Are you happy with the performance? Would you ever want to go with longer shackles and why?
 
Randy88FJ62 said:
The anti-inversion shackles I have will be used on the rear. I have not chose what type of shackle to use in the front. I think this is something I need to address immediately so that the CnT axle works appropriately. How do I determine what length and style shackles to go with? Mark says the stock ones will limit the vehicle. What type do I need to go with to maximize the potential of the front suspension? If you went with stock shackles, how do they work? Are you happy with the performance? Would you ever want to go with longer shackles and why?
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You get more flex out of the springs if you run a longer shackle and move the mounts in to get an acceptable angle. The down side is the extra work of moving the shackle hanger. A longer shackle alone does not increase spring flex. If you want to do this you can always do it later as a separate project.

Stock shackles are long enough for the stock springs-that's how Toyota chose the length in the first place. Longer springs, like arched lift springs where the main leaf is longer, require a longer shackle to prevent binding when it flattens/lengthens. A nearly flat stock spring does not get that much longer as it flexes, and thus the shackle can stay stock length.

I don't think it matters that much. I just had my 60 up on the Rubicon and the flex was just fine. If you want longer shackles, make sure they are not much longer as it will significantly change your geometry. I have used the 4 inch RuffStuff shackles using 5/8 bolts as pins on another truck and they work well and are cheap. I think the stock FJ60 shackles are 3.5 inches in the front and a bit more in the back. Stay close to stock measurements and you'll be fine. Just remember that longer shackles will hang down lower up front and a longer shackle will DECREASE your caster everything else being equal.

Most people set up spring overs with the lowest possible lift-that isn't a bad approach the first time through. You don't need a monster truck, just one that can comfortably fit 35-36 inch tires. It will still be a super tall truck. Running longer than stock shackles just makes it that much taller, not a good thing in my opinion.

I think I'd use your stock 62 springs, with a long AAL. That would beef it up and get you more weight carrying capacity. I've never heard of running 2 AALs. I suppose it could be done, but you're starting to get to the point where you'd be better off with a custom spring pack from Alcan or someone similar.
 
My goal is a Rubicon worthy truck. If yours can make it with stock shackles and springs then that sounds like an easy approach for me. I agree with keeping the SOA low and reasonable. I don’t want to be the retard going down the freeway swaying around jacked up way too high. My truck is not for looks and every part serves a purpose. Although my offroad lights will come under scrutiny with the previous statement . I also don’t want to run any tires bigger than 35’s for the time being. I want to keep this truck relatively street driveable. California has some beautiful offroad spots and driving there is part of it. I would hate to have to trailer a vehicle around just for those trails.

Things are looking more doable. So far we’ve gone over shackle reversal and I’ll keep the stock spring positions. That makes the driveshaft issues easier. I’ll add a long AAL in the rear 62 packs I have off the truck. I’ll plan on using the DC shaft I have in the rear and if that driveshaft turns out to be crap I’ll get it reworked or buy a new one. I prefer the DC shaft to avoid any potential vibrations.
 
Randy, I'll be honest here; I REALLY thought you'd read SO MUCH about this stuff before you even started this thread, that you were 'solid' on a few more things than has turned out to be the case. Since you are apparantly still open to discussion, I would like to add the following three pics, then a brief explanation of my current opinion on shackles that is not paraphrased by anyone else.

Pic 1:
Katemcy2009-bodean1.webp
 
Pic 2:
katemcy 3-21-09 105-tollison03.webp
 
Pic 3:
katemcy 3-21-09 118-tollison09.webp
 
Shackles, shackles, shackles. The shackles are a swing arm; the longer the arm, the more the swing.

Most off road rigs are set up [not as built at the factory, but as rebuilt by off road enthusiasts] with a minimal amount of uptravel in their suspension [read 2-3"] and the rest in down travel. Up travel is usually limited because of tire clearance issues with sheetmetal. As such, the SOA fits the bill nicely because the springs, which were originally designed for sprung weight, now have the weight of the axles as unsprung weight, and ride near the upper limits of their flex anyways.

IMO, if the spring is near the upper end of it's operating range, the shackle angle should be at least 45 degrees, as you aren't gonna need much more before you hit your well-planned extended bumpstops anyways. This will give you a full 90 degree sweep of the shackle back to vertical and on towards paralleling the spring before the anti-inversion will kick in. But is that 90 degree sweep going to add a 4.2" horizontal range of motion [roughly what you'd get with a stock 3" pin to pin length shackle] or 7" of travel [which is what you'd get with a 5" pin to pin shackle? And how much more will that horizontal range of motion give you in vertical travel?

Now look at my pics. In pic 1, you can see that the rear shackle sits back towards the 45 degree point I've suggested. That is due to the fact that I took the time to cut the shackle hangers off and move them forward to achieve this.
In pic 2, you can see how the axle is able to move downwards as the shackle moves forwards. In pic 3, you can see how far the axle can droop with the shackle I'm using [which is actually close to 6" center to center.]

Because your springs are SO MUCH LONGER than mine, and because they are pushed up with the extra unsprung weight of the axles underneath them, they have the potential to droop a LOT MORE than mine. That potential is EXTREMELY LIMITED by a short shackle. IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS, A SHORT SHACKLE WILL NOT ONLY UNDULY LIMIT YOUR SUSPENSION TRAVEL, but, if you don't put in bump stops and limiter straps to further limit your range of motion, the shackles and the frame brackets will be subjected to the stress of the suspension as it binds up at one end or the other...or both.

Soooo, here's the skinny IMO. If you stick with stock shackles, you've wasted half the reason for doing an SOA. THAT IS MY OPINION. IF you use longer shackles, you have to spend more time engineering shock lengths and locations, driveshaft length and slipyoke, as well as moving shackle hangers.
BUT, fwiw, you don't have to waste a dime on anti inversion shackles: ANY SHACKLE can be made into an anti-inversion shackle. ANY SHACKLE. USE what you have, get your specs worked out, and I'll show you how to modify it.;)
 
65swb45 said:
as well as moving shackle hangers.
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But that's the crux of it.


I don't necessarily disagree, but, you are comparing a SUA truck with a SOA truck. Ruf Toys appears to be SUA here, correct if wrong. The dynamics (if that's the right word) are entirely different. The axle has far more leverage on the spring when you are SOA, and thus has far more flex in both directions then a spring under truck. If you don't move the hangers, though, a longer shackle does not make the spring flex more. It just moves where the end of the spring is at rest. Without moving the hangers, I see no advantage to a shackle longer than needed to allow the spring to fully extend.

Moving the hangers in, and running a longer shackle will for sure, result in more droop. That's very desirable when spring under but not nearly as much when spring over. If you really want the best of both worlds, what you really want is a LONGER SPRING, but that involves even more welding and moving both hangers and re-engineering everything. Typically down flex will be limited by your shock length anyway. I set mine up so that at full droop, it's 26 inches without a shock, and so used a shock that is 26 inch extended length. No doubt if I moved the hanger in, and ran a longer shackle it would droop more, but then I'd be cutting into my floor to build shock towers inside the rear bed to allow for the longer shock body.

In Randy's case, he is limited by time and limited by experience. He can accomplish what he wants without moving any shackle hangers. Keep it simple to get going. Remember, you can always go back and move them later, so it makes sense to me to get the thing on the road and then worry about the options at a later date. You get so much flex in a SOA truck, that in my opinion, I don't think he will be limited by stock shackles. If at some future date he wants more flex, there are lots of other mods to do, like long Chevy springs (that''s my future), or 4 links, coilovers, the works.

One last thing-I did my 60 SOA with the idea that it was 100% reversible in case I didn't like it. Once you start moving major frame components, it's a much bigger job to go back to stock.

And since we're posting up pics of 40s flexing Here is rear SOA Flex (and not maxed either):

Andy_ROTW.jpg


With short shackle in evidence:

IMG_2562.jpg



And here is front (also not fully flexed):

db_P10101781.jpg



And that's with 4 inch shackles, and stock spacing on the hangers.

Mark, I respect your opinion, and only partially disagree about this.
 
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The guys at profitt’s cruisers add a little extra caster when doing the CnT. This means if I started with stock shackles and then went on later to longer ones I wouldn’t have any technical issues with the front axle housing.
Due to the monumental task of finishing this build I’m going to opt with stock shackles and get the truck moving. I see the longer shackles and modified spring hangers as a tuning process that I can tackle after the initial completion of the build. I’d hate to spend a whole extra weekend getting this thing going. As of right now the CnT axle will get back to me next month so the front axle rebuild and mounting will have to take place over the weekend of July 11th. That gives me a few weeks to work on the rear axle (AAL’s, shocks, brake calipers, ebrake cable, and traction bar.) I scares me how much work this takes, especially seeing how unprepared I was this past weekend. I don’t want to open a whole extra can of worms dealing with remounting front springs.

Drew,
Have you had any issues with binding while using stock shackles? I know that new bump stops will be needed but have you seen the need for limiting straps?

-Randy
 
Mark and Drew,
Thanks for taking the time to post pics and help me see both sides. I appreciate both of you sharing your experience and being patient with all my questions.
 
Randy88FJ62 said:
Drew,
Have you had any issues with binding while using stock shackles? I know that new bump stops will be needed but have you seen the need for limiting straps?

-Randy
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No-but the bump stops are a different issue and there to protect the shocks from being over compressed.
 
Coming down to grab the gas tank anytime soon?
 
Randy88FJ62 said:
Coming down to grab the gas tank anytime soon?
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August 25 I have to be in Claremont. You can see how I set up the spring over in my minivan.:D
 
I'll have it cleaned up and ready by then.
 
It's a learning experience. I'll get it finished, just takes time and money. How's the front bumper coming along?
 
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