Ditching the 383 stroker? (2 Viewers)

[Tex40]

Another option for surge tank - this is what I run with my FI tech - same as your sketch - low pressure pump keeps surge full of fuel with a return back to main tank.

High pressure loop to and from efi and tank. I can get a picture later.

RobbMc Performance Products - PowerSurge

 

[Tank5]

Another option for surge tank - this is what I run with my FI tech - same as your sketch - low pressure pump keeps surge full of fuel with a return back to main tank.

High pressure loop to and from efi and tank. I can get a picture later.

RobbMc Performance Products - PowerSurge

Thanks, pictures please I like seeing how others have done this.

 

[Tex40]

Excuse the mess of wires and hoses - I wanted to keep a vapor canister because I can’t stand gas smell in the garage - overview with surge tank in front corner - relocated my radiator overflow to drivers side and used the original overflow bracket to hold the surge tank - was a perfect fit (this is a 76 so it had the fat round radiator overflow).

I didn’t care for the original command center because the thought of the float and off-road just makes me think that it’s going to overflow continually, although the pressure gauges on the cc are nice and the original cc came with lots of extra fittings - those add up in a hurry.

I Purchased everything from speedway motors, bought the EFI hose, Earl‘s brand fittings and the special little EFI hose clamps, everything is AN6

Surge tank - brass fittings are inlet from mechanical pump (after pre filter) and return to the stock 40 tank. I like this surge tank because there is no float, it’s always full of fuel, and the mechanical pump is slowly circulating cool fuel from the main tank to it and back - The inlet has a small restriction to put some back pressure on the mechanical pump to slow down the flow. The larger black fittings are the high-pressure out to the EFI, and then the return back from the EFI, it’s low pressure but I used the same hose and fittings.

This is the actual EFI you see the high-pressure inlet on the upper right-hand side and the low pressure return on the lower left side, you can actually use any of the other two ports for the high-pressure inlet, I originally had it coming in the back but it was a little too close to my linkage and crowded - since the hose is already cut I just used the far side and that helps to hide the EFI high-pressure filter under the air cleaner. This all easily clears the hood and it’s super quiet.

 

[Tex40]

I should add I’ve driven around in the Texas heat with no vapor locking issues yet - my mechanical fan is a big one off a caddy - it pushes plenty of air under the hood - I like having the surge tank up near the front where it gets some cooler air.

My son bought the new hyper fuel module for his early bronco, he’s going to also be running the same EFI is me it’s a nice unit, it seems a bit taller than the one I have not quite as big around.

 

[BrianSanDiego]

This is really a great thread, seeing how others have dealt with the installation. I'm seeing a lot of parts that I'm wasn't familiar with, and might be helpful in the future. Sweet!

 

[Tank5]

I could really use some experienced advice as i am getting conflicting information from the manufacturers.

Talking to Fitech about running their command center 2 surge tank with a tpi unit they say I can dead head the system since it is regulated pressure from the CC2 tank. They say that is the way to do it. They said if I install a return line it won't maintain the regulated pressure with fuel being pushed out the return.

Talking to Holley about their stealth ram set up they say it has to have a return line.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

 

[Tank5]

To address the concern that the Fitech rep brought up it seems like if I put a fuel regulator on the return line from the fuel rail it would maintain the necessary pressure in the fuel rails and at the same time separate the high and low pressure systems. Thoughts?

 

[ryanwk628]

To address the concern that the Fitech rep brought up it seems like if I put a fuel regulator on the return line from the fuel rail it would maintain the necessary pressure in the fuel rails and at the same time separate the high and low pressure systems. Thoughts?

Is the FiTech unit regulated at the CC? Holley does the same thing with their inline fuel pressure regulators which can be down on the frame rail and single line from there to the throttle body. Both the FiTech and Sniper throttle bodies have regulators built in so if you run just that one, you need a return from there. Really I think you just need a return from wherever you regulate pressure first.

 

[BrianSanDiego]

Pretty sure you could dead-head if that surge tank has the regulator and puts out the correct psi. Holley sells a remote pressure regulator that does just that. I'll go into more details later after work.

Edit: that's what Ryan said isn't it. Duh
Edit 2:

I had previously looked at Holley's stand-alone pressure regulator, so I could mount it down at the fuel pump and just need a return line from there. If your surge tank has a regulator and returns the fuel from there, I don't see a reason you'd need a return line from the EFI. I'd think your configuration would be the same, in principle, as with the Holley FPR.
Holley EFI 12-875 Holley EFI Filter Regulator 3/8" NPT

 

[terrx]

GM didn't deadhead TBI and TPI because there is no way to get air out except through the injectors. I suppose you *could* do that if you really wanted to, but even then the FiTech 40004 may not be the right thing anyway. It's FPR is factory set to 58 PSI. I believe the Holley tuner allows you to set the fuel pressure, so you could probably work with that. Your HSR has it's own FPR on the downstream return side of the fuel rail. It's factory set to ~43 PSI. If you use the FiTech and deadhead it, the injectors will see 58 not 43, hence tune it to 58. Being able to use a pressure as high as 58 depends on if the HSR injectors can perform OK at idle as the duty cycle approaches 0.

If you decide to add a return then the FiTech FPR is basically useless since the HSR will regulate to 43 (as long as the FiTech puts out something greater than that - and it will - 58 PSI). According to the HSR install guide it's FPR can be adjusted if needed. It also has a feature to connect manifold vacuum to it's FPR, making it a vacuum referenced FPR or VRFPR, and from what I understand Holley tuner s/w allows you to configure fuel pressure baseline as well as VRFPR settings. That is a nice feature when you have a 450+ HP engine to get more dynamic range from the injectors. The VRFPR will put out low pressure at high vac (idle) and high pressure at low vac (WOT) allowing the ECU to expand fuel delivery range of the injectors. It can provide a small amount for idle and a lot for WOT. It's highly unlikely that the 383 will be producing power that makes that feature useful, but who knows. It's there if you want it and would not be there if you deadhead it - unless the FiTech has a vacuum port for VRFPR (I didn't see one if it does).

IMO the surge tank that was linked a few posts back is a better choice because my personal preference is to run a return and have it plumbed back to the surge tank, not to the return to main tank like in your drawing, which is the only option with the FiTech 40004 deadhead design. That way the low pressure system has it's own closed loop supply/return to the main tank, and the high pressure pump has it's own closed loop system to the throttle body, with the surge tank joining the two. If I already had the FiTech I would probably use it rather than throw $300 at another surge tank. But if I didn't, I'd go with something else. The powersurge or whatever it's called is simpler, has better supply/return routing, less internal stuff (FPR) to misbehave or get in the way of the HSR tuning, and cheaper.

First and foremost with EFI is having a good stable fuel pressure - a good pump and good solid wiring to the pump - tuning depends on it more than anything else. Incidentally along that line, when selecting a pump, bigger is not necessarily better. You want enough flow to meet the HP demands and not too much more, because a overly high flow rate at idle can overwhelm the return and cause the pressure at injectors to rise over the regulator set point. That can cause grief with the tune.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[BrianSanDiego]

That's really good info terrx. Thanks for talking the time to share your wealth of knowledge.

 

[Tank5]

GM didn't deadhead TBI and TPI because there is no way to get air out except through the injectors. I suppose you *could* do that if you really wanted to, but even then the FiTech 40004 may not be the right thing anyway. It's FPR is factory set to 58 PSI. I believe the Holley tuner allows you to set the fuel pressure, so you could probably work with that. Your HSR has it's own FPR on the downstream return side of the fuel rail. It's factory set to ~43 PSI. If you use the FiTech and deadhead it, the injectors will see 58 not 43, hence tune it to 58. Being able to use a pressure as high as 58 depends on if the HSR injectors can perform OK at idle as the duty cycle approaches 0.

If you decide to add a return then the FiTech FPR is basically useless since the HSR will regulate to 43 (as long as the FiTech puts out something greater than that - and it will - 58 PSI). According to the HSR install guide it's FPR can be adjusted if needed. It also has a feature to connect manifold vacuum to it's FPR, making it a vacuum referenced FPR or VRFPR, and from what I understand Holley tuner s/w allows you to configure fuel pressure baseline as well as VRFPR settings. That is a nice feature when you have a 450+ HP engine to get more dynamic range from the injectors. The VRFPR will put out low pressure at high vac (idle) and high pressure at low vac (WOT) allowing the ECU to expand fuel delivery range of the injectors. It can provide a small amount for idle and a lot for WOT. It's highly unlikely that the 383 will be producing power that makes that feature useful, but who knows. It's there if you want it and would not be there if you deadhead it - unless the FiTech has a vacuum port for VRFPR (I didn't see one if it does).

IMO the surge tank that was linked a few posts back is a better choice because my personal preference is to run a return and have it plumbed back to the surge tank, not to the return to main tank like in your drawing, which is the only option with the FiTech 40004 deadhead design. That way the low pressure system has it's own closed loop supply/return to the main tank, and the high pressure pump has it's own closed loop system to the throttle body, with the surge tank joining the two. If I already had the FiTech I would probably use it rather than throw $300 at another surge tank. But if I didn't, I'd go with something else. The powersurge or whatever it's called is simpler, has better supply/return routing, less internal stuff (FPR) to misbehave or get in the way of the HSR tuning, and cheaper.

First and foremost with EFI is having a good stable fuel pressure - a good pump and good solid wiring to the pump - tuning depends on it more than anything else. Incidentally along that line, when selecting a pump, bigger is not necessarily better. You want enough flow to meet the HP demands and not too much more, because a overly high flow rate at idle can overwhelm the return and cause the pressure at injectors to rise over the regulator set point. That can cause grief with the tune.

Just my 2 cents.

That is great information and I can tell you took the time to research the parts or you have a lot of experience with this stuff or both. Anyway thanks for taking the time to write it up.

I having been on the computer for the last couple hours researching this stuff and trying to make sense of these systems. I realize that the Fitech 40004 I picked out is not correct for the system I have as you pointed out. Luckily I had not purchased it yet but I was close. The Fitech 40007 would work though but I am going to do some more research and make sure I have a good understanding before buying what I think I need. There are other surge tank options as well so I will research more before I choose one. I will be looking at surge tanks that have an internal pump and allow the running of a low pressure and high pressure loops. I just need to determine which pump size I need.

I have now figured out that trying to deadhead the tpi system is not what I want to do. Research on the internet has said that the superior fuel system is a return system rather than a returnless. The constant fuel flow thought the system helps to keep, the fuel and fuel pump temperatures down in addition to other benefits like terrx pointed out. I also learned that the fuel pressure regulator goes on the return line after the fuel rail not before it.

Fuel system draft two coming.

 

[lone gunman]

terrx pretty much summed it up in his post. I would look at the cheaper surge tank with just the pump in it. your stealth ram should of had a factory pressure regulator with it on the back side on the feed pipe. you might contact Holley and see if you can get one if you didn't get it with the set up you bought. on my set up I run two regulators on it but its probably overkill on my part. but I wanted to make sure I did not supply to much fuel (GPH) and pressure to my rail/injectors. the factory pressure regulator can only handle so much pressure and if I remember correctly can only handle around 43 or 48 GPH of fuel. my pump is capable of a lot more than that and I just wanted the added insurance. you can see the Holley regulator in one of the pictures I posted just to the left of the surge tank. the stainless braided hose goes to it and then out to my fuel rail. the Holley regulator was like 50 bucks and is factory set at 60 psi with a return line ( Holley 12-886: EFI Fuel Pressure Regulator | JEGS) I did use a BBK adjustable fuel pressure regulator that replaces the factory one on the rail so I can tune the pressure. I am running a stock corvette fuel filter and it has a burst rating of 75psi and with my first set up I did pop the internals of the filter that's part of why I ran two regulators.

I found some sites that may be of interest to you because one covers your stealth ram and the others have some good info. and I found a long video of a conversion from TPI to stealth ram and he goes over adjusting the regulator and other info. look at the first few links grumpys is one of the better sites and I will post up some others that are more TPI related.

http://documents.holley.com/199r10554rev.pdf

HOLLEY STEALTH RAM and other EFI intake manifold info | Grumpys Performance Garage

holley stealth ram set up - Bing video

holley stealth ram set up - Bing

http://www.fuelinjection.com/tpi/forms_tpi/1985-92 TPI 5.0L and 5.7L Troubleshooting Tips.pdf

diagnoseing TPI & LT1 problems | Grumpys Performance Garage

Advanced Tips for EFI Tuning with Fuel Pressure – Aeromotive, Inc

How does a Fuel Surge Tank work?

https://www.deatschwerks.com/surge-tank-faq

can you get there with TPI | Grumpys Performance Garage

and if your not confused enough here is a decent video from summit: they have others too.



another video on fuel pumps:

 

[lone gunman]

found another good read for you, its all about 383's and tuned port intakes and the torque they can make down low. very impressive and capable of big block torque in a small block package.

GrumpysPerformance.com • View topic - TPI THROTTLE BODY SIZE, 48mm-52mm-58mm

 

[Tex40]

My only issue with my system was the fitech temp sensor location - my stock manifold has no port and I made a half heated attempt to get the passenger side port plug out of the head - I gave up and bought a water neck with a temp port -not ideal but it works. My gauge sensor is on the drivers side head, I pulled it out but it’s a different size and I can’t get the adapter out...

I might see if I can find a way to put it into the heater outlet/install a Tee with a port or something

 

[Tank5]

I did some more research and after learning more about my HSR I determined the best way to set it up is with a different surge tank that runs a low pressure and high pressure system using the mechanical engine pump for the low side and a submerged electric pump for the high side.

I decided to go with a radium surge tank that is set up to run a submerged Walbro pump. It it looks like it will make for a clean install. I am currently waiting on parts to arrive. I will have some more updates after I have everything here to start working on it.

I am also going to be replacing the oil pan and valve cover gaskets since they are both leaking.

 

[Tank5]

My radium surge tank arrived today. I was lucky and found it for a great deal on Craigslist. Previous owner only ran it for 5k miles so it stills looks really clean. It is not real big which is what I wanted because I plan to install it under the hood. Hope it works out just fine.

It has a 450 lph pump. I called Holley and they said the stock regulator would work just fine to manage the fuel with this pump, so I am going to give it a try.

I figured out where I will mount it, so I placed an order for some fuel fittings and hose. After those parts arrive I should have what I need to start the install.

 

[lone gunman]

sounds like you scored on the surge tank. how do you like the design of it? i might upgrade to that set up if my current set up ever fails. size wise looks pretty small, please keep us posted as you continue your build i really want to know how it turns out and how you like it.

i would also like to know how much noise the pump makes when running because bosch 044's are fairly noisy pumps and thats what i am running.

 

[Tank5]

sounds like you scored on the surge tank. how do you like the design of it? i might upgrade to that set up if my current set up ever fails. size wise looks pretty small, please keep us posted as you continue your build i really want to know how it turns out and how you like it.

i would also like to know how much noise the pump makes when running because bosch 044's are fairly noisy pumps and thats what i am running.

The design seems really nice. The housing is pretty light and all aluminum. The only concern I have with housing design is that both ends seal with an O-ring. If the bottom O-ring holds up long term it I will be happy.

The tank only holds 1.5 litters. I hope that is enough to get the job done. I am t honking it should be fine. The nice part about it is it fits in the engine bay without taking a lot of room. It will make any maintenance if necessary a lot easier.

The pump is a walbro pump and walbro said the designed it to be extremely quite. I will give an update after I get it going.

 

[lone gunman]

thanks for the info, it kind of makes you wonder why they made it so top and bottom come off. it really only needs the top to open and if the bottom was part of the housing then no worries about leaks.

and 1.5L should be more than enough since your mechanical pump will keep filling it. mines only .5L more (2.0L) and no issues.

also coat the O-rings with a little vasiline or oil before sealing the unit up. it helps with sealing and helps keep them soft.

any idea the number of the walbro pump they use, i would like to look up the spec's for future referance.