Differential Gear Setup --How To-- (1 Viewer)

[Bear80]

Some of you might have caught in a thread last week that I was having some sweet 4.88 gears setup for me. Well they did not come out right and I'm left with either spending another large sum of money for someone else to do them or do them myself as I actually originally planed. I've done some home work, from Randy's R&P, West Coast Differentials, Toyota Gear Installs and numerous other web sites. I feel with those readings, my trusty FSM and some tips as I go from Zuk, I can get these bad boys setup. Right now I'm waiting on some shims, a new bolt/nut, etc. so this will be a work in progress thread. I don't know if this will turn out as a great how to write up but we'll see. This should be interesting.......

A few of the web sites I have been studying-

http://www.differentials.com/install.html

http://www.drivetrain.com/ringpinioninstal.html

http://www.gearinstalls.com/

 

[Bear80]

The Story

Locally to setup gears there is about three places that I went between, 4 wheel parts and two other individual shops. I was leery from the get go about 4 wheel parts, just due to rumors but I still owed it to myself to talk with them. However, due to the fact that my front gears were in a Yukon box and they did not sell that brand they could not set them up. Even though in the box it was a US Gear, which shows up in their boxes and even more puzzling was that my rear set came in a Sierra box but those they would set it up because it was a Motive gear?? This left me confused and just a little more distrustful of their possible work....on then to the individual shops! Between the two individual shops, some club members had dealt with only one of them before. One member had him setup a 'yota mini truck and the other a land cruiser, both swearing he did great work.

Well it was a bit of a drive for me but I went up there, and the first thing that turned me off was when I mentioned bringing in my Toyota book with all the specs and torques. He casually bushed the idea aside, telling me he had all that information and everything he needed. Any time I hear someone brush a technical manual aside I immediately have doubts. I would have felt better had he said, sure if nothing else I could use it as a reference if need be, even if just to entertain me. As for his shop it was not all that impressive, more homely I suppose. So I know he's done at least two 'yota's with happy customers but I'm still not thrilled with the choice.

On to the next shop, "Trashed" as I like to call it now, since the name is similar in pronunciation. Nice older gentleman, with what I could only say is an A+ work area. Clearly he has been doing this for some time and keeps an excellent shop, which to me translates into taking pride in his work and making sure it's right. Nope. I'll find out that's not the case but only my delusion. There where several high dollar muscle cars and hot rods having gears setup, making me feel even more trusting. Then the mention of the manual again, just like the other guy, casually brushed aside and ramblings about "how much he's done and how many he does all day and that it's his thing."

Well who to choose? Both brush the manual aside, not insulted by my asking but not caring much for the idea. One has done toyota 3rd's but basically it comes down to a good eye for the pattern and dialing it in with proper backlash. Both are the same price but "Trashed" is much closer to me and maintains an excellent shop and to me that is usually a key representation of one's work. Okay, I'll go with him then. I bring him everything all from Toyota, bagged and tagged to each corresponding box. I even spent the time to highlight, so as he would not be confused on the steps, torque values and pre-load values from the manual since it's combined with a locking and non locking 3rd and they somewhat differ. I hoped that just by having it there, he would be more inclined to open it. Nope. I'm lucky I've worked on a few 'yota rear ends (not gear setups) to simi know what to look for, along with ZUK's great site.

--SO BEFORWARD DO YOUR HOMEWORK EVEN MORE THAN I DID WEHN LOOKING FOR A SHOP!!!!--

 

[Bear80]

The issues

I'm told that they should be done in just one or two days. Nope. I call three days latter because I'm apprehensive, and get: "oh I'm having trouble with the rear and its carrier shims." I would have appreciated a call before Friday informing me of the issue. I had assumed as a gear shop he would either have a source or source the shims from Toyota, which we had discussed prior to the work and price. He pretty much just held off on it and being a Friday with me calling felt pressure to get it done, so he promises them by the end of the work day. So I head down there to pick them up, not expecting the best. Come to find out, it's worse and later when I tear them down I'll a hord of gross errors.

He's there just finishing up the rear, telling me he's just about to stake the pinion nut, and that the bl could be better but okay.....HU? it's not great but okay, what the hell is that?? Well lets see the pattern, and cbpl. UGH, the diff is no cleaner than when I dropped it off, in fact the case is oily from handling it and clearly nothing was cleaned to use lock tight. But how is the pattern?? I'll let you judge it, but I tell him it's absolutely unacceptable with the fact that he's telling me the bl could be better. I ask him the numbers and he pauses to think and I stop listening....nothing written, clearly nothing double checked. Well he's keeping it over the weekend and however long till it's right. So let's see the front diff. Okay, the pattern looks pretty good, again I'll let you judge it. I again ask what is the bl....same type of answer...ugh...Overall the diff seems okay to me so I'll take it, pay him and let him keep working the rear.

I get home and look at the pinion nut, it's the original nut, not the new one but okay if everything else is fine I can live with that, even the fact that it's not staked. CBPL could be tighter but that's something I can handle, thanks to the man Zuk and his great web page! I get out the dial gauge and what do I find for bl.....0.015, double what the book calls for and clearly not even checked by his part. I'll later find out when I take it back Monday that he just uses the feeling method :-(...wiggles it with his hands and yep it feels good. AAHH! He clearly believes he's done so many that he's so great that he can do them by touch. Well I kindly ask him to go ahead and get it set better, he agrees and I can watch. Well he just blindly loosens one side and turns the other, not any type of measurement of how much he turns either adjuster....then he has the nerve to get the hammer and chisel out! I calmly tell him I will take both diffs home and see what I can do. He has no problem with my requests or with me taking them, I mean he has my money already. In fact he tells me that since I ask to learn how to do this, I can do it in his shop with his help. Well regardless if he still has the responsibility to do what I ask, I just cannot trust how they will turn out based on the chisel and hammer and everything else up to this point.

So here I am with them at home, time to tear them down, and clean everything so I can use lock tight, etc. Both pinion seals where not pressed in fully flush and one of them had a dent in it. I seriously question the possible sealing ablitiy...The rear opens up uneventful, until I pull off the ring gear bolts and nuts to clean them. One of them strips coming off, not to mention my impact wrench took all of its might to get the nuts loose. Meaning the nuts where WAY over the 81 ft/lbs of torque. After cleaning all the bolts I notice the one that striped has brass scarring on the head and sever scarring down the shank and most of the unstriped threads. Looks like it was the first bolt in and used as a punch to align the holes. I’m sure the nut didn’t want to go on but with the use of an impact wrench it threaded its self on, only to strip when removed.

Then I get the front torn down and find that the large inner pinion bearing is in unacceptable shape. It appears he could not get it pressed off and used a torch and pressed on the cage, not the inner sleeve. Now the cage is all lose and has heat markings all over it, funny with my simple press and angle iron i get right under the bearing. He could have called me and I would have had him a new one asap, but no just leave it since I'll never know.....Also the crush sleeve has been used twice and his solution was to place a shim under it.....AAHH Then come to find out like the rear, the ring gear bolts are not evenly torqued, obvious use of an impact wrench to tighten them. I'm about ready to pitch these things through his windows. That pretty much covers my headache up to this point, not to mention my much lighter wallet.

 

[Bear80]

Visually the problems

Later I'll realize both the front and rear sleeves are the original ones

Notice this was the one used to line up the ring gear for the rear and it was driven in with a brass punch

Obiviously it striped due to damaged treads, just look at the shiny areas on the shank

Heat scoring on the cage from a torch. Not from the bearing, rollers and races show nothing to point to running hot

Note how far the cage can move, obviously pressed on

How do you get pounding marks on the carrier like this and in several areas??

 

[Bear80]

The patterns,

Front, not so bad but appears the pinion is slightly deep and the BL(backlash) could be opened up some:

The rear did not look so good. The pattern is very vauge but seems pinion is shallow and BL is way outta wack probably to tight:

And this is how Mr. "T" was willing to give it to me. Unacceptable.

 

[Bear80]

Hope that's better for you -B-. I didn't mean for such a story here in tech but it's a virtual cut and past of my email to Zuk, since he asked for the long version of the story. I should have more to add tomorrow when all the stuff gets in!

 

[treehugger]

dam

 

[KLF]

It's really not that hard to do, just be patient, don't get in a hurry. For tools, I have a 20-ton HF press and a bearing splitter, very handy, but not absolutely necessary. You do need a small torque wrench for setting the PL on the pinion, I like the Park Tools TW-1.

Putting the ring on the carrier is a cinch is you heat it like it says in the FSM. I use an old electric skillet full of water, I watch the temp with my DVM and a temp probe. Once it's up to about 180-190d F, I yank it out with gloves, blow it off with some air, then it will fall onto the carrier. You can easily spin it around and get the bolt holes lined up perfectly, just work quickly. Spin a few bolts in by hand, then buzz the rest in with the impact on low setting. The final torque in the pattern as shown in the FSM.

Those patterns suck, especially the rear.

 

[Bear80]

The tools needed are as follows:

-in/lb torque wrench
-1/2 drive torque wrench
-calipers
-dial gauge
-tool to turn the carrier side adjusters
-pry bar
-10ton press
-impact wrench (pneumatic or electric)
-lock tight
-anti-sease
-FSM, good references, pen and pad to write the shim values down

My home made carrier adjusters. Just some extra metal I had around, grade 8 1/2" bolt and welded nut in the middle with grade 8 hex head bolts. On the locker side I used 1/4" X 1-1/2" length bolts to clear the clutch, and for the other side I used a 5/16" X 1" lenght bolt. I need to finish the one I just made for the locking side and I'll probably round off the edged of my other while I'm at it.

Just to reiterate and probably the single most important, the dial gauge:

 

[Hayes]

This thread might inspire me to do this myself....

 

[Letsgomoreplaces]

gear setup

Where did you get the parts? We offer tech assistance for our customers. Also, you can ship the 3rds to us. We have done countless cruiser diffs, including at least 4 of my own cruisers. If you plan to tackle it on your own, you will need new pinion seals, pinion nuts, some shims, etc. It is not that difficult, but it will take you a little while factoring in the learning curve. As far as the side-shim thing, most diff shops will never even see a 80 series diff, and as a result wont have the Toyota OEM only shims. With most diffs there are existing aftermarket shims that cross over from something else, but the size of the cruiser diff shims are different. Make sure you have plenty of carrier bearing pre-load, as this will ensure a strong setup. This does not hold true for pinion bearings, set them to spec or they will burn up.

Yep patience does apear to be the real key. The only experience I have with diffs is putting a lock right in two v6 truck rears. I took note to adjust the carrier bearing preload and install a solid pinion spacer so I'm not too afraid of diffs anymore.

I do have a press, and in/lb torque wrench for the pinion preload, both very handy. I had to make a tool for each side of the carrier adjusters for the front diff, since mine is an e-locker.

The carrier bearings are all in place as are both ring gears so I had no desire to pull them apart that much. I just cleaned the holes, bolts and nuts and lock tighted them down.

71 ft/lbs on the front:
-pic comming soon-

81 ft/lbs on the rear:
-pic comming soon-

 

[Bear80]

Thanks JT for the offer to setup them up. I did order the mini install kit, and got it the other day. However, for my ease with the press I'm going to use Toyota pinion shims in the rear.

I just found out today he had re-used the original crush sleeves in both diffs. I also when down and confronted him today about all these issues. I made it point to note that by not using and pitching the new crush sleeves he pretty much took $25 out of my pocket. I think I am going to have to take this to a higher authority, probably the better business breau. But back to the work at hand!

 

[Arya Ebrahimi]

The first and only diff I've done (HP FJ80 front for my mini-truck) took me 8 hours working with a friend that had done a few Dana diffs before. It's not rocket science, just requires patience like others have said.

Good luck with everything!

 

[Bear80]

I'll be skiping a few steps since both ring gears are already mounted on the case. I'd assume following the FSM and placing the ring gear in boiling water should work. I also do not need to press off/on the carrier bearings.

First thing I did was clean all the ring gear bolts with brake cleaner and put a drop of lock tight on each. Trying to torque the bolts or nuts (in the case of the rear) is kind of tricky. My pry bar just fit into the "windows" of the case for the front. You can do this alone by holding the pry bar and torquing the opposing bolt. I had my father's help so I held the pry bar and case while he torqued.

Careful with the bar placement, don't want to catch a spider gear!

Rear fit in better

Never can have enough lock tight

 

[landtank]

what strength locktite are you using?

 

[Bear80]

I also noted all the shim values. The FSM notes for the first try to be with the original pinion shim. The front shim at 0.074 appears to be pretty close, I'm going to try a slightly thinner one when I reassemble it.

The rear pinion shim was 0.0482 but the pattern was very vauge so I'll have to start with that one. The carrier shims where 0.1157 and 0.1075, however the latter was machined down so I have no idea what it started at and since the pattern is so vauge I'm not sure what to choose just yet.

 

[Bear80]

what strength locktite are you using?

Just the Permatex red high strenght.

 

[landtank]

Just the Permatex red high strenght.

In my line of work we need to use locktite 271. It's a red high strength thread lock. I didn't have any available once so I used the permatex equivalent. The machine ran for about two minutes and the bond broke. I don't know if it was that batch or that is how it's made. You might want to go back and check a few of those nuts.

I stick with locktite brand always now.

 

[Bear80]

You know usally I do buy locktite. However, lately and just till you pointed it out I didn't realize it being permatex even as I typed it earlier. I'd agree true locktite would be prefered, but the bolts/nuts I'm using it on are not called to have pre-coated threads. I should be ok since it's just a double up to make me feel better.

 

[Bear80]

Well I hate to say this but my differential odssey is over. The real factor was trying to get to these over the weekend and this week. I had a training seminar all weekend and got zero done and not a chance either this week so far. Next week I'll be gone and could have to stay over longer depending how things go. So, after a few emails back and forth with ZUK he's willing to give me a great deal to correct this mess. It pulls my exhaust system funds, so I'll have to live with low hanging cats for a while longer. I still think if anyone wants to attempt this themselves it's totally do-able with the tools and reading I have listed.