Diesel Vs. Propane Vs. Gas - HDJ81 Vs. Suburban

[83bj60]

LOL!!
well to me "Luxury" meant high quality units...

Picture the Orgies of the Roman Decadence (did I just hear someone say "replace the term 'Roman' with 'American'"? ). ..

my, my, I am sure some American posters will take a bit of offense to this statement...

^- Did you see how nicely I nested my quote into yours Yeah, I spend too much time in front of the Computer!!!

My American wife, however, is the first to agree with me. Now my Texan nephew would sure go into an argument with me about it, but what d'y a expect, he is smack in the middle of Dubya country...

As for myself, I would say simply watch some of the American channels (we have a grey market dish and use my mother-in-law's address) and you'll see what I mean by decadence. The excesses of America are there to see in plain view.

Now mind you, I am NOT Anti-American, far from it, Thank God for Free Enterprise, Live Free Or Die! But it pains me to see how much they have declined in the past 20 years, how little they have learned from the oil crisis of the 70s, and how far behind they are in terms of technology in general compared to rest of the civilised world (well at least when I compare it to France and Germany, where my family comes from originally...)

 

[crushers]

LOL!!
that made me laugh...

 

[Dougal]

and again, Roverboy, you refuse to post your personal experiences...
if it is on the web it must be true and must be believed more than real life experiences...and if it is backed by a proffesional it must not be disputed by lowly members of mud...

Funny how you're asking for me to only post "personal experience". While you're trotting out "a farmer 35 years ago told me".

My personal experience with a 350 chev/holden can be summed up pretty easily.
Toyota 1UZ is better in every way. But the only thing I'd ever consider them for is a jet boat.

 

[sandcruiser]

I'd go with a Ford E-van. If you can get one with a clean body and a strong diesel motor, you'll love it for a surf-mobile. You don't even need racks, you can stow your board(s) inside... just built a false floor and you can slide the boards underneath it. Saves getting wax drips all over the roof (and saves getting sand/wax goo all over your board bags). Could also save your boards, when you stop for "just a quick corona and a taco".

Since you are planning to be on the beach a fair amount, I'd plan to buy a rear locker and a way to reinflate your tires. Lots of people like the powertank (its fast!) but I prefer a 12v compressor. My first choice would be to run an ARB locker w/ a bigger compressor.... then when (not if) you get stuck in the sand you can just drop your air pressure wayyyyyy down, and engage the rear locker. If that doesn't get you out, 4wd probably wouldn't have done much better than the locker anyway. You'll have to dig.

The other nice thing about a van is that it gives you some space to hang out. Throw an awning off the side like a front porch, and suddenly you've got all sorts of between-set comfort.

I'm still a 'Cruiserhead, through and through, but I've often thought that a diesel van would be my second choice for a surf-mobile.... they just have so many advantages and are probably good enough for 90% of the beach-approach roads in Baja.

 

[LCdreamin]

I'm still a 'Cruiserhead, through and through, but I've often thought that a diesel van would be my second choice for a surf-mobile.... they just have so many advantages and are probably good enough for 90% of the beach-approach roads in Baja.

Nice, you know exactly what I'm lookin for! I really like the idea of a van, my last one was a safari/astro van and it was great for surf trips on pavement. Could throw all the gear inside and still have room to sleep with the seats out. Only bad points were that it was no good off road and didnt have the best mileage.

The next trip will be to Baha, maybe further south back to your neck of the woods depending on time and how far we can pull ourselves. I can see us finding a good point and just sticking around for a while, but I always like to search for the next one around the bend.

So I've never drivin down to Baha, but from what I've read and heard is that south of El Rosario a good 4X4 with good clearance is a must for exploring. I'm sure all the well known spots wouldn't require too mean a rig. Do you really think a good locked rear end with maybe a winch and a winch anchor is all we'd need? I must admit the only real downside to an 81 was that it is a little on the small side for a 3+month surf adventure with 2 guys. A van would be perfect if it could do it.

Also even with the 81's I am looking for no factory lockers, and then throwing in ARB lockers and then having the compressor to do what you suggested plus for emergency Baha flat tires. You say the normal ARB compressor wont pump tires??

Plus if we do go farther south, I know when I was in your neck of the woods, we rented a (cant remember what it is now) but a diesel 4x4, low thing tho, like a subaru but not a subaru. Anyways we tried that road down to Withes Rock and couldt even do that (started to rain got scared and turned around only 1/3 in), mind you it was a pretty low wagon for 4x4 and that road is nuts too. Would a raised locked van be able to tackle those types of roads??

Appreciate the help from a fellow surfer. Also what do you think about those Delica's?? Many people have suggested and considering their price they are kinda attractive.

I still love those 81's tho, and since I've seen em in black now I really love them!

 

[Sniperx]

First off,

Don't you people ban anyone? On any other forum Mr. D would be looong gone.

Reading many of Dougal's comments it makes me wonder if hes ever seen a diesel motor or understands diesel principles.

"There are two main reasons why diesels are more efficient. The first is their compression ratio (roughly 16-23:1). Typically double what a petrol engine runs (8-11:1). This lets the pistons get more energy from the expanding gas.
The second reason is the lack of a throttle plate (some toyota diesels are the exception here). The throttle on a petrol engine literally strangles it. Necessary for speed control, but not good for efficiency."

The above comments could NOT be farther from the truth. The compression ratio has little to do with a diesel engines economy over a gasser. The compression is merely a means to an end...a necessary function in the operation of a diesel engine. What makes a diesel truly superior in economy is the amount of potential energy stored in the fuel itself. Its similar to why kerosene stoves burn hotter than gasoline stoves. The FUEL holds more power and the power is released more efficiently by the diesel than simply lightning a match under a can of gasoline.
The throttle plate, choking, WTF? Positive fuel economy is not lost by "strangling" the engine. In fact, ITS IMPROVED. In the 1950s, VW found if they put small carbs and small exhaust on their cars, they got excellent gas mileage. I saw an original 1953 muffler for a beetle (I OWN a 53), you can't fit a golfball up it. I had it explained to me as...an elephant with a tiny a$$hole can't eat a lot. So yeah, you have NO clue what you're talking about.

Mitsubishis. Now. First unless you own and drive one...you know NOTHING. I have a Pajero SWB 2800 ICT. I love that car. It actually saved my life. I have owned this car for over a year now and have gone a lot of crazy places and done a lot of crazy things in it. I've run diesel, kerosene, and vegetable oil through it. I've even run it on 100% kerosene, just to see what happens (it cleans it out real good, runs hotter...good for winter, smells funny, has less power..more refined easier burning fuel, and has higher RPMs). I've driven it in snow up to the bumper without chains, on mountain trails, through iced tunnels, no chains, through some very tight and harry turns, trails, and u-turns. I've hung the suspension on rocks, stumps, dropped wheels into 2 foot gutters, and it was always able to work itself out. The only thing it REALLY needs is the factory rear locker. The only thing that has finally stopper it....a 10 meter drop off the road I was driving on. It did a full roll and landed back on its wheels. The next morning, started up fine, and winched/drove it out under its own power. I'm still driving it today waiting for my LC to finish up so I can take it home. After the roll, the turbo kicked in, it drove straighter, and gets better fuel economy (turbo providing a better burn). I'd STILL be driving it, but the passenger door sill has been pushed in and water pours in during rain. Girlfriend doesn't like arriving drenched. The engines are strong and can take a beating. The EGRs need cleaned. The alternators should be watched. Other than that, no complaints.

The reason I bring up the Pajero/Shogun/Montero....its the same general chassis as the Delica. The problems with the Delica are are related to being a van configuration. Its sits VERY high, this is due to the radiator being under the car with a massive air scoop on it. This is bad because its a guaranteed branch catcher. The radiator is on the bottom, because the engine is inside the car. This also makes wrenching on it a little tricker. If you don't plan on going through branch covered trails, you'll be fine. Me, I go into old logging areas and logging camps...guaranteed punc'd radiator. The added height will give you clearance for sand dunes and things and the interior is easily converted to more of a camper/hauler...which is very common here. Think of it as a very civified Unimog. Plus the full length sunroof is a draw for the ladies.

Alternate fuels:

Propane...no. Take the conversion cost. You've figured out the nickles and dimes here. However, did you account for middle-east conflict? Rise in gas prices also cause a rise in propane prices. Propane also gets almost half the economy of gasoline...thats about 1/4 the eco of diesel. So to get the diesel equivalent in pricing...take your .65 and multiply by 4 for every liter used. The equipment, very specialized and high pressure tanks. This causes repair and insurance nightmares. Just, no.

Vegetable oil. Can be run in unmodded cars. Runs better in modded cars. Mods are easy and non-permanent. Can transform your car into a multi-fuel car allowing emergency fuel up anywhere. Diesel cars can run on many fuels, jet fuel, kerosene, veg oil, motor oil+paintthinner, diesel, etc.

Solar. Vegetable oil is classified in some places as solar power. Seriously though, solar...no.

Electric. Good for around town...but wouldn't dare take off road.

Steam. Novelty.

Nuclear. Refueling is tough, but hey...only need to every 150 years.

1.21 gigwatz. Only good for time travel and lightning.

 

[LCdreamin]

First off,
Alternate fuels:

Propane...no. Take the conversion cost. You've figured out the nickles and dimes here. However, did you account for middle-east conflict? Rise in gas prices also cause a rise in propane prices. Propane also gets almost half the economy of gasoline...thats about 1/4 the eco of diesel. So to get the diesel equivalent in pricing...take your .65 and multiply by 4 for every liter used. The equipment, very specialized and high pressure tanks. This causes repair and insurance nightmares. Just, no.

Vegetable oil. Can be run in unmodded cars. Runs better in modded cars. Mods are easy and non-permanent. Can transform your car into a multi-fuel car allowing emergency fuel up anywhere. Diesel cars can run on many fuels, jet fuel, kerosene, veg oil, motor oil+paintthinner, diesel, etc.

Solar. Vegetable oil is classified in some places as solar power. Seriously though, solar...no.

Electric. Good for around town...but wouldn't dare take off road.

Steam. Novelty.

Nuclear. Refueling is tough, but hey...only need to every 150 years.

1.21 gigwatz. Only good for time travel and lightning.

Funny! I've pretty much just been told no for propane by everyone. Unless a cheap vehicle thats already converted comes up its a no.

Now Sancruiser had me thinking about Vans and I came across these:
http://www.glinx.com/~sbest/
http://www.thundersgarage.com/4x4vans4sale.html#CANADA

These things are pretty rare indeed, but is EXACTLY what I'm after, if I could just find a diesel one in good condition.

I think the only companies around still doing this are Quadvan and Quigles, but they only do conversions on new vehicles. So it's the old Pathfinder/Quadravan's I'm looking for. Still I want an 81, but these things are cool!!

 

[Sniperx]

Eeewwww....rapist vans.


Get a Delica, mount a rear winch, dream about the rear air lockers and be happy. Seriously, what you are seeing there....s***. Take it from someone who was born and raised in the US and seen enough Mexicans belching smoke and screeching brakes.

 

[Dougal]

The above comments could NOT be farther from the truth. The compression ratio has little to do with a diesel engines economy over a gasser. The compression is merely a means to an end...a necessary function in the operation of a diesel engine. What makes a diesel truly superior in economy is the amount of potential energy stored in the fuel itself. Its similar to why kerosene stoves burn hotter than gasoline stoves. The FUEL holds more power and the power is released more efficiently by the diesel than simply lightning a match under a can of gasoline.

You're wrong. .
The difference in energy content between diesel and petrol is only 13% by volume, weight for weight they are very close.
Diesel = 39 MJ/l, Petrol = 34 MJ/l
The difference in engine efficiency is close to double.

Further, the way efficiency is calculated already accounts for all differences in fuel energy content.

You don't think high compression = high efficiency.
We'll you're wrong again.

The throttle plate, choking, WTF? Positive fuel economy is not lost by "strangling" the engine. In fact, ITS IMPROVED. In the 1950s, VW found if they put small carbs and small exhaust on their cars, they got excellent gas mileage. I saw an original 1953 muffler for a beetle (I OWN a 53), you can't fit a golfball up it. I had it explained to me as...an elephant with a tiny a$$hole can't eat a lot. So yeah, you have NO clue what you're talking about.

Try breathing through a straw sometime. That'll give you an appreciation for energy lost through pumping losses.
Then maybe (but probably not) you'll work it out.

Mitsubishis. Now. First unless you own and drive one...you know NOTHING. I have a Pajero SWB 2800 ICT. I love that car. It actually saved my life. I have owned this car for over a year now

You've owned a mitsubishi diesel for a year, I'd sell it now. Before the fuel pump dies or it drops a valve on you.
Keep a paranoid eye on the temp guage too, if that gets hot the engine is scrap.

Don't give up your day job.

 

[Sniperx]

Dougal: You have much to learn.

Compression is not why diesels are more efficient than gasoline cars.

This kid doesn't want to know why a system is parasitic or not. He wants to know what gets better gas mileage and why. A Honda Accord gets better economy than an LC...huh...it has a throttle body though. By your accounts a throttle body should make it worse. Ok. My BMW 850 has 12cyl, 300hp, 2 throttle bodies, and runs on gasoline...and gets the same mpg as my 2800cc pajero.

And yes, breathing through a straw is tough. I know, I've tried. How about this...breathe through a straw with a MAS air sensor on it and a couple O2 sensors up your butt. Now connect the MAS and O2 sensors to your brain and rewrite it to adjust the amount of food you eat based on how much you are allowed to breathe, while still keeping you alive. Hey look...less air=less fuel=less o2 in exhaust....

My pajero has 130k on it, not a lot, I know. But has not given me one hint of problems. You're knowledge base is so broad and shallow its annoying. The only diesel mitsu that has a valve problem like that is the 2500cc engine...which has a timing BELT...the 2800 has a CHAIN. The pumps don't have any reported problems. And you're talking out your ass. Go back and play with the soccer mommies in their Discos.

Bud...you're nothing more than a troll. You have no interest in LCs and come here merely to stroke your ego and splatter on the screen. If this was my forum...you'd be booted in seconds.


BTW....quit regurgitating Wikipedia...its just sad....

 

[Dougal]

Dougal: You have much to learn.

Compression is not why diesels are more efficient than gasoline cars.

Yes it is. I suggest you check some basic thermodynamics.
Carnot cycle would be a good place to start.
Compression ratio alone dictates your maximum efficiency. Which is why diesel engines reach 50% efficiency and petrols are stuck in the 20's.

Last I checked this wasn't a mitsubishi forum. Why are you here again?

 

[Sniperx]

...

Maybe because I'm about 2 steps away from buying this...

after doing this....

Atleast I'm in the process of getting an LC....you still drive British trash around. (although I will admit the original Safari Rovers were pretty cool machines, now they are mere status symbols)

Go away troll.....

 

[Dougal]

Maybe because I'm about 2 steps away from buying this...

That'll be a big step up from the Pajero.

Go away troll.....

So you can educate everyone about engine efficiency without the corrections?

 

[Sniperx]

...

Go back to your hug-box over at http://www.landroversonly.com/forums/


Go away troll.

 

[drexx]

20Aug2007 (UTC +8)

[...]
One thing I have noticed from those that have claimed fairly poor fuel economy is this: they often drive lifted trucks with huge tires, drive through apparently very steep hills at fairly high altitude or do mostly fairly short runs.

Sounds familiar? What I mean to say, compare beans with beans, not with peas.
[...]

Good point your making here. That's how I modified my Hilux (http://www.pbase.com/drexx/hilux_2004) with the humble 3L engine (3.0liter, indirect injection). I installed a 2L-TE turbo system and engine head from an LC Prado for US$300, tuned down the injection pump a bit and saw my EGT gauge drop in temps, put on GoodYear MTR 245/75R16 (30.5" tall, 9.5" wide, on 16" wheels) with 30psi, and fuel economy got better to approximately 32.93 mpg (14km/L). It's mostly city driving (heavy Metro Manila traffic all the time!): 3 kids to/from different schools, doing errands, servicing my wife's catering business, etc. Sure, it's gutless compared to my TRD supercharged UZJ-100 (with Borla cat-back & TRD Tundra headers), but hey, it works for me!

 

[sandcruiser]

To reiterate my thoughts on driving in Baja:

While it is awesome to have a badass off-road machine to tool around in... Most of the beaches in Baja are pretty accessible. Sure, the non-toll roads can suck. Sure, there are going to be stretches where you drive on loose sand and/or whoop-de-whoops for miles at a time. Sure, there are rocks and mountains and plenty of chances to get stuck.

Ok.

But if you leave sooner instead of wasting time and money on modifications, you can take your time. Getting stuck might turn out to be the best thing that happens :

(just imagine... you're out of Coronas, low on food, and only a little water. The sun is nearly down. You strike camp and pull out... only to bury your axle. You engage the locker and somehow you still don't get out. Dangit! But, no worries, you'll just spend one more night and dig out early in the morning. You wake up to get going and POW! Overhead sets peeling in with steady offshore winds feathering the foam off the lip. Unbelievable!! Now aren't you glad you didn't build a better offroad vehicle?)

But seriously: making a vehicle that is good in sand and also capacious enough to be a good surf-mobile is a trick proposition. Either a cruiser or a van will do fine. Hell, I know guys who have done California to Costa Rica in a honda civic, an old chevy station wagon, VW vanagon, built landcruisers, stock lexus, and just about any other rolling platform you choose to name. They all made it. They all got stuck sometimes.

For sand, in my experience, a locker in the rear can be better than 4wd and no locker. Why? Its lighter. All things considered, a 2wd w/ locker should weigh a good 200-400lbs less than a 4wd (once you include knuckles, front solid axle, transfer case, etc etc). Of course, you won't have low gears to choose from. But in sand, low gearing isn't usually much benefit anyway.

I'd choose AT tires, probably 31's. I'd go with an auto tranny (better for sand). A mild lift will help out. A good hand winch is better than an electric winch unless you can rig the electric to work both forward AND backward. Many times in sand you are much better off backing up than getting stuck deeper. Spend the money you save (good hand winch is half the price of a cheap electric) on a good hilift (which is also a second hand winch) and some sand ladders. I've never owned sand ladders, but plan to build/buy them someday.

As for the road to Witch's.... That's one of the worst access roads to excellent surf that you'll find in all of Central America. I've been stuck on that road in three different 4wd trucks, including my own (with rear locker). There was an article back (Peterson's 4wd, I think) in 98 or so about a guy who had an fj60 w/ 31s, locked front and rear who had to winch almost the entire way up from the beach to the park. Don't use it as a basis for your trip as 9 times out of 10, you'll be on much easier roadways. A friend of mine runs a surf tour company with a nice defender 110. They are down at witch's once ever two weeks or so. He has stories of backhoes getting stuck in that mud, and of people hiring excavators to pull the backhoes out. Nasty.

Just looked at that 4x4 van for sale page (thundersgarage). Dude, buy the $4,000 1979 van. Drop in a working A/C (a must). Buy a new battery (always a good idea pre-expedition). Drop a few hundred into a tuneup. Go. Surf. Enjoy. Mexican mechanics can fix a ford, no worries.

Diesel would be better in terms of mileage and all that, but... let's say you do 20,000 miles (thats a HELL of a lot of miles in Central America). If gas and diesel are both $3/gallon, but you get 20mpg out of diesel and only 12mpg out of gas, then your diesel costs will be $3,000 and your gas costs would be $5,000

Big deal. You'll probably spend more than $2,000 finding a diesel 4x4 van that is ready to go to Baja. And you'll probably drive a LOT less than 20,000 miles.

Besides, a ratty old van will blend in better- less chance of getting robbed or ticketed by Federales.

For more reading: go to http://www.peoplesguide.com/ buy the book. You WON'T regret it (this is the type of book that has extra pages in the back, in case you run out of TP... they know what they are doing) You'll laugh. You'll cry. And it'll probably show you that no matter what you drive you'll A) realize you "should" have done something different, and B) be better equipped than 90% of the people who have done trips like this.

 

[dweisger]

Just to add my 2 cents.

I am nervous about the GM's 6.5 turbo diesels. The my Dad had a 95. It had fuel system problems from day one. When the truck was working it was a pleasure to drive. When you had a problem there was no warning, just like that it was dead and on a flat bed headed to a garage. Over the duration of the warranty I think the fuel system went though about $5000 in repairs. He used to travel with a spare takeup pump just in case. I have talked to many owners who all said there was a design problem you could fix by using aftermarket bits, but nothing officially released from GM, just homemade stuff.

The Powerstrokes are more "reliable", but they are just not nice to own. The beauty of the Ford is that it will typically "half work" for the longest time before it leaves you stranded on the road. They are also real thirsty. I used to use a 1990 F-350 with a old plywood box as a courrier truck for work that got worse fuel mileage than a 1987 5 ton Mercedes straight truck with a 9' tall 22 foot long box (with 600,000 km's on it, with no rebuild).

I was told later by another driver the Ford had an injection problem, but took 3 years of going to the dealer to get it straightened out. After the fix it still wasn't much better than the Mercedes.

The 5.9 Cummings is a great engine, but to own one you have to drive a Dodge.

I like my HDJ81 VX, it suits my needs. 9 foot surf boards can go on roof racks. It has STOCK lockers and a STOCK winch. It's no war wagon, but that is not what I bought it for. The beauty of the truck is that it has some great technology, but it is still pretty simple and straight forward.

Anyway, you can't drive a FORD Land Rover. The Canadian government restricts the sale of Disco's to soccer mum housewives.

Go Yota and forget about it. I'm a lousy mechanic that's why I drive a Toyota.

DW

 

[83bj60]

20Aug2007 (UTC +8)



Good point your making here. That's how I modified my Hilux (http://www.pbase.com/drexx/hilux_2004) with the humble 3L engine (3.0liter, indirect injection). I installed a 2L-TE turbo system and engine head from an LC Prado for US$300, tuned down the injection pump a bit and saw my EGT gauge drop in temps, put on GoodYear MTR 245/75R16 (30.5" tall, 9.5" wide, on 16" wheels) with 30psi, and fuel economy got better to approximately 32.93 mpg (14km/L). It's mostly city driving (heavy Metro Manila traffic all the time!): 3 kids to/from different schools, doing errands, servicing my wife's catering business, etc. Sure, it's gutless compared to my TRD supercharged UZJ-100 (with Borla cat-back & TRD Tundra headers), but hey, it works for me!

Wow, that's incredibly thrifty! How heavy is this vehicle? Is it part or full time 4WD? What do you consider is the biggest factor for improvement besides changing the head? The tires maybe?

In any case, I've always believed smaller engines can be made to run very thrifty (4cyl = better fuel economy because less parts to rub against each other), as long as they are not pushed too much past their optimum, in which case they tend to use MORE fuel than larger engines. It always comes down to the ideal output a particular engine is suited for (like Dougal said in another post, the fuel consumption map shows that any given engine has an ideal engine rev/hp output map for efficient fuel consumption).

My present LC can use as little as 10l/100 at 95kph with its 4.2 l turbocharged engine, the old 3B on the 60 series (about 600 or so pounds lighter, part time 4WD with front axle unlocked) could do the same for about one litre less per 100 with a non turbo 3.4 litre engine... My challenge for this year is to break the 9.4 l/100 (30 miles per imperial gallon) barrier, hopefully by improving my exhaust system and replacing those excessively wide tires with tall and skinnies...

 

[83bj60]

diesel engines reach 50% efficiency and petrols are stuck in the 20's

Hmmm... 50% efficiency... Isn't that the absolute theoretical maximum attainable for an internal combustion engine, that only very large engines such as those on boats (very low part friction for the output) with super long strokes (for maximum heat conversion into motive power) get near to?

I'm no expert, but isn't the efficiency of automotive diesels closer to 30 to 35% (compared to gas with approximately 23% to 28%)?

 

[Dougal]

Hmmm... 50% efficiency... Isn't that the absolute theoretical maximum attainable for an internal combustion engine, that only very large engines such as those on boats (very low part friction for the output) with super long strokes (for maximum heat conversion into motive power) get near to?

I'm no expert, but isn't the efficiency of automotive diesels closer to 30 to 35% (compared to gas with approximately 23% to 28%)?

Yes 50% is boat engine efficiency, but smaller engines are getting closer.
You can calculate out your engine efficiency from it's BSFC (unfortunately Toyota don't publish those).
Typical Isuzu 4BD1T or Cummins 4BT can do just under 220 g/kwh.
1 kwh is 3.6 MJ, diesel has 46 MJ/kg. 220g of diesel has 10.12 MJ

Efficiency becomes 36% for these engines designed 20 years ago.

The VW 1.9TDI and mercedes OM904 (4.3L 4 cyl) can do just under 200g/kwh which equates to 40%
I have heard rumours of a 3.9L 4cyl diesel which can do 170g/kwh (46%) but I haven't been able to track down who makes it.

Best figure I've seen for petrol BSFC is 250 g/kwh. Petrol has 48 MJ/kg which gives you 30%
But the best point for a petrol engine is a small target and it gets bad quickly when you leave it.
A diesel at worst point has a BSFC around 300g/kwh, a petrol at worst point is around 600g/kwh